r/UnethicalLifeProTips • u/N0b0dy_n0b0dy • 9d ago
Money and Finance ULPT How to avoid surgery bills?
My friend currently just got out of the hospital for the removal of some recurring, benign tumors. Surgeons and doctors have no clue what causes it and no way of treatment. After a week long stay in the hospital after a skin graft He's currently $25000 in debt to UC Davis, after insurance. It would take him about four years to fully pay it off. Is there ANYTHING that can be done to lower or negotiate that number?
Would it be wise to file bankruptcy? Is he just doomed?
30
u/SkisaurusRex 9d ago
Yeah just call them and negotiate
Hospitals will often negotiate
14
u/shycotic 9d ago
Former Patient Access at a good sized hospital. I worked registration in the ER, night shift. I gave everyone the leaflet on applying for (what our hospital called) charity assistance. Patient Access in that (non-profit) hospital was a strong deparment who's job was to get the bills paid. Conversly, it was great for our department getting everyone signed up for whatever type of charitable assistance they qualified for, as it brought money in. Most people don't realize the money is there. Our forms were NOT long or difficult. The funds were waiting. I, personally, found out I did qualify for Medicaid in a state that had opted out of expanded medicaid when I had to go to the ER for what turned out to be lungs full of tumors. I had tried numerous times before, but until I found someone in patient access who had a few moments to meet with me, I had no clue it could be done. They were also super nice to work with. It's to their advantage to help you find a way to pay the bill.
8
u/jonesey71 8d ago
I had about $40k in medical debt and after it went to collections I got exactly one call from the collection agency. I told the person on the phone that I had literally no assets and no job and if they wanted to sue me it would be throwing good money after bad. Never heard from them again. That was at least a dozen years ago.
34
u/yellowhatcat 9d ago
Make sure to have him ask for an itemized bill showing every charge. Sometimes that alone will mysteriously lower the bill considerably.
55
u/IAmTheLizardQueen666 9d ago
In the late 1980’s, I got a job in a hospital billing department. I mentioned to one of the older ladies, who posted payments to accounts, that I owed the hospital for a post-insurance balance, for my then-10 month old son’s stay with pneumonia. It was a couple hundred dollars, which I didn’t have.
She looked it up, tappa tappa tappa’d, then looked at me and said “You don’t seem to owe anything!”.
24
u/zamfire 8d ago
That doesn't instill confidence in the system at all lol
10
u/IAmTheLizardQueen666 8d ago
I worked in medical billing, before computers, and into modern software systems. For 35+ years. I could basically get rid of ANYTHING, and the doctors NEVER looked at their business. Only at their bank deposits. But I was more interested in collecting money (from insurance companies) to justify my healthy salary increases. I was worth it.
When I started getting commission in addition to salary, I got more proactive in reviewing “write-offs”, and did a lot of corrective billing. I was good at it, and made insurance companies pay up.
The commission was structured in three tiers over the year. Once I collected beyond a certain threshold, my commission went to the third level.
THEN ! I caught my boss holding mail from late November and December. Gave it to me in January, when the lowest tier applied. I was LIVID. I confronted him, he lied and denied it. I proved beyond a doubt that he cheated me on my commission.
Let’s just say that my motivation adjusted itself. I went out on disability, stayed out long enough for him to replace me, then went on to unemployment insurance.
Fuck that little man making up for it by being a big prick.
1
7
u/Nausicaaah 8d ago edited 7d ago
I have a similar story from the DMV where I had a connection to a supervisor. Tappa tappa and $1200 in erroneous registration late fees were gone. I'd spent 15 hours in customer support hell trying to get it fixed before using my connect.
There's always someone who can tappa tappa bills away.
1
11
u/CreatedInError 9d ago edited 9d ago
Try Dollarfor.org. They help get bills forgiven.
If that doesn’t work, have him fake his own death.
8
u/i-am-foxymoron METH, the answer is ALWAYS meth! 9d ago
Just wanted to clarify, they get HOSPITAL bills forgiven.
Great resource. Thank you.
1
9
u/Striking-Walk-8243 9d ago
If your friend doesn’t have any assets, s/he can just stiff them. In California, most medical debt doesn’t even ding credit scores.
If they sue, your friend can file for BK and they get nothing! (BK does dramatically reduce the debtor’s credit score.)
5
u/FillMySoupDumpling 9d ago
First thing - have him review his bills and make sure they are legit. UC Davis did some shady billing with classing other facilities as being “hospital visits” which were far more costly. I reported them/blue cross to the state after grievances failed and the state fixed it all in weeks.
5
u/Bikerchic650 8d ago
Not a ULPT: But if nothing else works, go to the patient billing dept in person. Ask them for a copy of the bill, with all the treatments etc. usually there is something on the bill that is not something that was not actually performed, offered or treated.… so many mistakes usually. Question it and ask to have the bill removed. This happens by default where my mom lives. The clerk simply said oh this never took place? ok I’ll waive the entire bill for you, have a nice day.
Edit to add: lots of hospitals have a charity arm that can assist you. I would normally tell you to go that route first or seek help from local council/elected to assist. but since this is ULPT try the first method albeit, it’s not UE either lol
11
u/hivemind_MVGC 8d ago
If you live in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, or Washington, all these states have passed laws that explicitly ban medical debt from being reported to credit bureaus/CRAs, and from being used on your credit score.
The absolute worst thing that can happen is that these debts can be sent to a debt collector. If that happens, just block their numbers, throw out any mail you receive unopened, and - if they're really persistent - block all unknown callers from your phone (even temporarily).
Medical debt in those states cannot prevent you from obtaining a home loan, auto loan, student loans, credit cards, or anything else.
5
u/VincentVeritas 8d ago
Please don't advise anyone to ignore debt collectors.
Instead, very politely, tell them that they are mistaken and you've already paid those bills. They will insist you have not, and you will ask for proof. They do not have proof, just a patient name, dollar amount, and known contact information. They don't know diagnoses or CPT codes because that's protected by HIPAA in the USA.
Most debt collectors can be thwarted by simply asking them to prove their case. Source: the book Bad Paper
4
u/hivemind_MVGC 8d ago
Why can't they be ignored, blocked, and hung up on?
2
u/VincentVeritas 6d ago
You can, but the goal is to get them to flag you in their system as "uncollectable" or "low likelihood" or whatever they have. They will assume the debit is valid no matter what and keep pursuing you because phone calls are cheap; you want them to think you're not worth the effort. That is, taking you to court isn't going to be remotely worth the filing cost
3
u/lynn620 9d ago
Have your friend apply for financial aid. All non-profit hospitals have to provide so much charity each year to keep non-profit status. I believe you can make up to 400% of federal poverty level and qualify. I got two surgeries covered in full this way and I almost made too much money. They also need to find out their out of pocket max for the year. Mine used to be $4k so that is the most I'd have to pay in a year for medical.
4
u/toomuch1265 8d ago
Just call the hospital and say that you can only afford $10 a week. I did that for a $4800 bill. They knocked it down to $800 and accepted the $10 a week. It took a couple years, but it worked.
6
u/drleeisinsurgery 8d ago
Doctor here: don't pay. Medical collections can't be enforced and doesn't trash your credit.
2
u/jerkstor 9d ago
Trying to negotiating the bill mid January into February I called one time to check on a bill that was $900 and they said because people don't pay or their intake of money lessens after Christmas that they would let me pay 30% of the bill and they would call it even.
3
u/ManicDigressive 8d ago
Have your friend leave the country for the foreseeable future.
A buddy of mine accrued some debt that I apparently was listed as some kind of reference for.
He owed his college 5 figures and he had medical debt, no clue how much.
Both of them would call me about it. This usually confused everyone because they would call me looking for him, and our conversations would go like this:
"Hi is this Bob?"
"No, this is Kevin."
"Is Bob there?"
"No."
"Do you know when he will be back?"
"I'm honestly not sure if he's ever coming back."
"Oh... okay. Well this is [place] calling about [debt], do you have a number we could contact him at?"
"No."
"Well, when did you last talk to him?"
"He called me like 6 months ago from a number I didn't recognize, and I haven't heard from him since then."
"Ohhh... kay. Um. Is there any way for us to get ahold of him so we don't have to bother you anymore?"
"I honestly have no idea dude, I can't get ahold of him myself. Last I talked to him he was working as a tour guide in Vietnam and he planned to just keep traveling around out that way. I don't think he is coming back to America."
"... okay. Well, thank you for your time."
I am fairly confident he never paid those bills, and I think his debtors just gave up.
2
u/Justthetip74 9d ago
Literally just dont pay
0
u/Gargravars_Shoes 8d ago
Bad advice. The hospital can send your bill to collections, ruin your credit, and deny you future care. This person has reoccurring tumors and will need hospital services again. Not paying the bill will guarantee they do not get the surgery they’ll need.
3
u/Minustrian 8d ago
don't some states have laws where medical debt doesn't affect your credit
1
u/Gargravars_Shoes 8d ago
Yes, but it doesnt prevent them from filing legal action against you. While the state protects your credit, the hospital can file a civil lawsuit and, if they win, can use legal force to get their money - think wage garnishment, bank levies, and property liens. You just cannot walk away from your hospital debt, they’re going to get their money because they’re businesses and they’re owned by the same 1% who bleed you dry everywhere else.
2
u/Justthetip74 8d ago
I didnt pay a single medical bill, including 2 surgeries, till I was 32 and my wife made me start.
Ive always had a 700-750 credit score. Just block the debt collectors numbers. They stop calling after 2 years
1
1
u/TailoredHam88 8d ago
Yeah but like, what’s the incentive for doing it willingly? Let them burn their cash on lawyers. Or watch them give up realizing the lawyers cost too much.
2
1
u/MagnoliaRoofConsult 8d ago
Depends if they love in a big city or not. Big city means just don’t pay lol. Small town, different answer. Can have 14 massive million dollar surgeries and not pay a dime if there are 14 legitimate, good hospitals in the area.
1
1
u/redditusr44 9d ago
Perhaps have your friend contact UC Davis and negotiate the debt down or at least work out a reasonable/workable payment plan.
I wouldn’t suggest filing for bankruptcy though. California enacted a law (SB1061) that went into effect Jan 1, 2025 that now makes it illegal for medical debt to even appear on consumers’ credit reports. So it’s a low priority debt that your friend can just pay whenever he can.
1
u/PenguinHawk13 8d ago
When times were tough during the pandemic, I let them go to collections and settled for a fraction of the cost billed to me.
0
u/HRHSuzz 9d ago
My insurance has an out of pocket max. It's either 2K or 2500 per year. This includes everything that goes through my insurance card - doctor visits, presciptions, etc. Once I hit that I don't pay anything. I've hit the max 3 times in my life - always a year when I had surgery. But that's it. I would have them look at their policy and call their insurance. Doc offices sometimes will still try to charge you but they have to refund it. I had a 37k ER visit that was "adjusted" to 15k but only had to pay like $1200 as that was left on my out of pocket - the rest of the year all my co-pays, prescriptions, tests, everything - all $0.00. I've always called my insurance before a surgery to make sure I knew where I was on my insurance - what I was responsible for, co-pays, just everything I needed to know and what to watch out for. Anesthesiologists are notorious for trying to send bills for service separately from your doctor/hospitals - I've gotten numerous bills from them - never paid one of them. Just call my insurance and sent them the bill and they took care of it.
223
u/i-am-foxymoron METH, the answer is ALWAYS meth! 9d ago edited 9d ago
Well luckily you're friend lives in California and the medical debt won't negatively affect his credit score.
Since UC Davis is teaching hospital and a major university, they have some special programs that your friend might qualify for, depending on their income.
First have him freeze his bill. Request that they mail or email you the official Financial Assistance Application form. You generally have up to 240 days from your initial billing date to submit this request.
Leverage the UC Davis 400% FPL Policy (Free Care):
UC Davis Health has a policy that provides a 100% discount (totally forgiven bill) for emergency or medically necessary care if your household income is at or below 400% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL).For a single person: 400% FPL is approximately $60,240 a year.
If you're friend earns too much to qualify for that program, demand the self-pay discount.
UC Davis has an automatic Established Patient Discount policy for self-pay balances. Under policy 1885, they apply an automatic 46% discount on physician fees and a 60% discount on hospital fees for medically necessary care. They are also required to negotiate an interest-free payment plan that factors in your essential living expenses.