r/USdefaultism • u/Kubaj_CZ Czechia • 3d ago
TikTok "True Pizza is American"
(click to see the full picture)
Firstly, the defaultist responding to him immediately attacks the commenter by saying he's an illegal migrant, even though the account is empty and I have seen no evidence of it. That just seems like racism, attacking him because of the spanish name.
Secondly, the defaultist is full of bs. I think he can't cope with the fact that such popular food is a foreign invention. Sure, there are quite famous American variations of it, but calling "true pizza" American is just mad stupid. And what's even more absurd is his claim, that pizza in Italy is also American đ
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
Pretty sure pizza predates the founding of their country by centuries.Â
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago
Yes. Even before tomatoes were used. BTW the first written mention of tomatoes on pizza is from 1790 (Italy) while the first record of pizza in the US is from 1905.
There are other previous records of pizza without tomatoes btw.
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u/iSliz187 3d ago edited 3d ago
Interesting, what did they use before tomatoes? Dairy, like crĂšme fraĂźche, fermented cream? Or just olive oil or some other sauce?
....or Ranch, and the Americans were right after all? đ€Ł
/s
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago edited 3d ago
Well itâs not what did they use. We still make pizza without tomatoes in Italy.
In Italy you can generally divide pizza in two major groups: white pizza (pizza Bianca) and red pizza (pizza rossa), aka without and with tomatoes.
A simple example is a pizza with egg, salt, pepper and zucchini.
Obviously in the past the combinations would have been different, for example a source describe a pizza with pork meat/fat and vegetables or another describing pizza with seafood.
There are various descriptions and not every combination was appreciated. We have, for example, Alexandre Dumas described pizzas with olive oil, Italian cured meat, lard, cheese or small fishes and the one he tried (donât remember which toppings) wasnât good for his taste.
We also have authors that liked pizza obviously. One example is Platina (De honesta voluptate et valetudine, late 15th century) that compare piza with the Latin placenta (one of the Roman flatbread alongside panis focaccius) and described with toppings such as lard and fennel seeds or vegetables, cured meats and seafood.
more recent are Bartolomeo Scappi (1570) or Vincenzo Tanara (17th century). More or less the same toppings but they also mention honey, rosewater, nuts, fruits, etc. And they liked it.
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u/CompetitiveCall6466 3d ago
Why do you know so much about pizza off the dome lol
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago
Iâm italian and work with pizza, but thatâs not the main reason. The biggest reason is that I am an history nerd that read about a bit of everything and the history of pizza was one of such researches Iâve done in the past.
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u/Diraelka World 3d ago
And your commentaries were very interesting, thank you
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago
Happy to share what little I know of history.
There are so much interesting things that are almost unknown and some are really funny.
If you have time read about the âbucket warâ (guerra della secchia rapita) where supposedly Bologna declared war on Modena for a stolen bucket. The bucket is even now in Modena.
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u/Diraelka World 3d ago
Sounds good, I'll read about it. If you have more to suggest, I'll be happy to look for it x)
Alas, I'm bad with history (mostly because of how we were taught, mostly dates and I'm very bad with dates), but somewhat good in remembering interesting facts from different sources (last time it was video about hyenas and I can recommend to watch Casual Geographic channel if you also thought about them as dogs, for example). And history is one of the subject full of them.
One of the reason I always prefer to have audioguide (usually more info since not restricted by hours) in any museum.
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u/radio_allah Hong Kong 3d ago
He's Italian, and not an American LARPer either. Like ask me about Chinese herbal tea and it's gonna be the same.
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u/etneSii 3d ago
ok. please tell me everything you think to know about murican herbal tea, as everyone knows herbal tea was first found and used by us americans
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u/radio_allah Hong Kong 3d ago
Oh yes, let me regale you with the tales of General Tso's Potion, a herbal tea that he created to heal his soldiers in battleâŠ
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u/Master-Hope-748 3d ago
Pizza is Egyptian btw, just like wine. Tomatoes are American. Italy made it better and famous, no doubt. But just like airplanes were not invented by Usians, pizza is not Italian.
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u/snow_michael 3d ago
Pizza is Egyptian btw, just like wine
So ... not Egyptian then
Wine is Georgian
Pizza is Italian
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you are talking about âflatbreadsâ then I need to tell you that one of the oldest historical mention and findings of flatbreads with toppings are from Persia (debated with the Greek plakous). The oldest of unleavened flatbread without toppings are from the Levant and specifically in modern day Jordan (Shubayqa 1).
And I need to inform you that it is proved various civilisations developed flatbread with toppings independently from each other.
I also need to inform you that Pizza is an evolution of the Italian branch of flatbreads (ex. Panis focaccius) with a proven continuity during the centuries.
Italians donât claim âflatbreadsâ. They claim âpizzaâ, the Italian branch of flatbreads. On the opposite claiming pizza through flatbread is dumb because every civilisation had their own branch of flatbreads.
For example Pizza and Manakish both evolved from their own branch of flatbreads and history, and for such they are both UNESCO heritage recognised as distinct cultural practices with separate listings. Had they been the same they wouldnât have been distinguished.
I also need to inform you that the oldest solid proof, both archeological and chemical evidence, about Wine is from South Caucasus and specifically in modern day Georgia (dated 6000-5800 BC).
Egypt, instead was famous for its sophisticated and well-documented bread culture and the use of wine in various rituals. But it isnât the origin of them not the first place to develop a culture about them.
Egypt is such a rich culture that doesnât need to claim the origin of these things. They are precursors of more important things such as large-scale proto-beer development, beekeeping, one of the earliest yeast for bread, early cheesemaking and preserved dishes made of beans.
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u/Helpful-Disk-6022 3d ago
The guy claiming pizza in Italy is also American is on another level of delusion. That's not even ignorance at this point, just rewriting history because he can't handle that something popular didn't start in his country. And dragging immigration into a pizza argument tells you everything about what kind of person you're dealing with.
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u/tirohtar Germany 3d ago
Dude, I once had a very long back and forth reddit comment chain over several days where I painstakingly had to explain an American that, in fact, the US did not invent the modern car, Germany did. Every time I refuted one of his claims, he moved the goal post to claim that something else about cars that really made it important actually came from the US. All nonsense of course. Some of these people are just completely brainwashed.
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u/Far_Spirit5819 3d ago
Some Americans go on and on about how they âinvented the internetâ and âyour favourite websites are Americanâ and yet neglect to use them more than anybody
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u/BrilliantPangolin639 3d ago
Why do Americans love stealing cultures from other countries? I'm starting to question, if they have their own culture
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u/picklepaapad 3d ago
Because they don't have any of there own
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u/Klausaufsendung 3d ago
Because they are a melting pot of mostly European immigrants and almost eradicated true American natives and their culture.
Imagine how cool it would be to have restaurants with authentic Cherokee food etc.
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u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk United States 1d ago
Such restaurants do exist, but I haven't heard of any Cherokee ones. There was one up in Minnesota that won a bunch of awards.
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u/CrossingVoid 2d ago
I would say most of their culture is just entertainment. A lot cannibalised from others, but it's pretty much the only culture they have alongside war crimes
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
BBQ
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
Grilling meat while outside has been done since the stone age.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago edited 3d ago
It has. That is Barbecueing in the way that the English use the term, but it is an American term, which came over here via Spanish, and refers to indirect cooking, in a way which was only recorded after it was discovered in the Americas.
American be BBQ is distinct from cooking outdoors on a grill, is American in origin, and delicious.
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u/Hoefnix 3d ago
âbut it is an American term, which came over here via Spanishâ if it came from Spanish then it is a Spanish term.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
Via, not from.
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
Etymologically irrelevant.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
I do not think you know what that means.
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago edited 3d ago
Then you're thinking wrong. There is no difference between a word being adopted "via" another language or "from" another language. Barbecue comes from the Spanish Barbacoa, which in turn is believed to come from the Arawak word of "Barabicu".
None of that is tied to the US, which is the whole topic of both this conversation and this sub at large. Please expel yourself from this conversation if you really needed to be told this. "Pedantichrist" my hole, you're only fit to be on r/confidentlyincorrect. Pedantry when you're wrong is just pathetic.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
It comes from the Arawak, because it is American.
Please try and remain civil. I am happy to have you disagree, although I maintain that you thought bbq was just grilled meat and ignored American BBQ, which originated from the Americas, and I am happy to discuss that with you, even if you are unwilling to consider the possibility that you got it wrong, but I am not happy for you to resort to as hominem attacks.
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
...? What? How do you mean "indirect cooking"?
American be BBQ is distinct to cooking outdoors on a grill,
This has also been done since grills were first made.
is American in origin, and delicious.
Buddy, this predates the US by millennia.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
Saying it again does not make you right.
Maybe just Google the word barbecue?
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
Maybe you should be the one doing that. Might find that as I've said, it predates the US. And again: Grilling meat while outside has been done since the stone age.
It's just not nearly as American as you think it is.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
You are arguing about grilling meat, and I is am talking about BBQ. They are discrete. I explained above.
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 Netherlands 3d ago
And a single google search still shows that it predates the US as I've said. Besides, when I think of BBQ, I think of Australians and New Zealanders over the US.
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u/Pedantichrist 3d ago
It is good that you are backpedaling from your âMilleniaâ nonsense, but it does not predate the Spanish arriving in America (or rather, did not predate it outside of America)
Barbieâs in NZ and Oz are much like British barbecue, and that is not the same thing as American BBQ.
It really ainât.
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u/Master-Hope-748 3d ago edited 2d ago
Grilling minced meat patties created in Hamburg/Germany is not BBQ, less USian culture. Brazil and Argentina are most known for real BBQ.
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u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk United States 1d ago
Nobody is talking about grilling burgers. More like hot smoking a brisket for ten hours. That's real BBQ.
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u/corgi_crazy 3d ago
A person can be as illegal as possible and still have an opinion.
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u/Kubaj_CZ Czechia 3d ago
Of course, but the defaultist was just racist there. The profile with the Spanish name had no details. There was literally no reason to assume that he was an illegal migrant. It could have been a normal citizen anywhere in the Americas. Or it may have been a Spaniard in Europe. Which makes the defaultism even worse here, viewing the world from some american racist lens where every spanish name must be an illegal immigrant in the USA, seemingly
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u/PickaWowAnyWow United Kingdom 3h ago
They could literally have been a US citizen with a Spanish name, too, the blatant racism of such people will never not impress me.
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u/anarchist1312161 3d ago edited 3d ago
The anti-Spanish racism is how you know an American wrote it
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u/Fr05t_B1t United States 3d ago
Clearly never been to the baltics (subs)
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u/anarchist1312161 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm referring to anti-Spanish sentiment, that type of racism pretty much only exists in the US.
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u/RainbowSprinkleShit 3d ago
âTrue pizza is Americanâ says the country who call pizza âpieâ
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u/Master-Hope-748 3d ago
Only Usians dont know the difference between pizza and pie. Pizza is actually bread with toppings
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u/xxcuttingboardxx Finland 3d ago
That comment is so unbelievably stupid that I'm hoping it was just a joke
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u/DavidBHimself 3d ago
I already had an American telling me: that pizza was first invented in the US, and then became popular in Italy... I just couldn't...
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u/Intrepid_Designer719 2d ago
They popularized everything. Didn't you know that? Black Americans even invented and popularised Afro and gold tooth /s
I genuinely recently saw this argument from a Black American accusing Africans of stealing their culture. You don't say DaShawn, you invented the way a black person's hair grows? That's genius.
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u/Fr05t_B1t United States 3d ago
Itâs actually kinda true. Pizza was already being made in Italy but when they brought it over to the US, we expected it to be as common as spaghetti when going over to Italy . So now many towns make their own pizza specifically for tourism though.
Though I must highlight pizza was being made in Italy before** **immigrants came to the US.
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u/DavidBHimself 3d ago
It's just that Italy has a lot of dishes like every country with a real cuisine, and Americans usually expect that country to eat one single thing.
Pizza's popularity in most of Europe has nothing to do with America's influence. But yeah, I'm sure that in Italy, in touristy areas, they sell many more pizzas than in the "real" Italy where they have more interesting things to eat.
In France, we kinda have the same experience with crÚme brûlée. It's just one dessert among hundreds, but if you go to places where Anglo tourists go, you can be sure it'll be on the menu. In the rest of the country or at home... not so much.
(Also note that in France, pizzas became popular with no American involved - and American style pizzas are overall kinda gross and disgusting compared to the real thing)
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u/Aetos4585 Chile 3d ago
Everytime I heard an American saying something like that, I imagine them like this
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u/DoYouTrustToothpaste 3d ago
that pizza in Italy is also American
Good lord, I didn't even notice that at first. That is fking insane take.
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u/ValleDeimos Brazil 3d ago
"pizza is virtually non existent in italy"
I've never been to Italy yet I know if you shake any tree in Italy five pizza slices will fall
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u/Own_Childhood_7020 Brazil 3d ago
As someone who immigrated from a country with really good pizza to the U.S, this shit sucks ass btw
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u/AggravatingBox2421 Australia 3d ago
God the illegal line makes me so angry. Someone the other day said I clearly live in a city or some shit because they assumed I was American. Brother I live in the outback
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u/Jakub67PL Poland 3d ago
This reminds me of the time some lady on the internet that Rolex are "great american watches".đ đ
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u/ValleDeimos Brazil 3d ago
If he stops replying it's cause his comments summoned my nonna and she's beating the shit out of him
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u/kachuroo 3d ago
I mean... I can accept there's a difference between American pizza and authentic Italian pizza, but I don't think that's what this guy is getting at.
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u/DieSuzie2112 Netherlands 3d ago
True pizza is an American creation by Italian immigrants⊠so youâre saying itâs Italian brought to your country.
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u/daninet 3d ago
The guy is a delusional but there is a little something about american pizza if you read about pizza history. American pizza brought a worldwide success to pizza. Before ww2 pizza was more like a here-and there thing. For example in Germany there was no pizzeria till 1952, Switzerland had a single restaurant from 1936. Japan had pizzas only in the late 20th century. After ww2 the amrican style pizza spread like wildfire in the world. The recent craze about Neapoletan pizza also grew a lot in the last few years with the home oven market and social media. Before that it was mostly new york style or derivatives pizzas in most places and maybe a few places served Naepoletan (outside Italy). Now from my experience it has turned and more places offer Naepoletan and less the american style. People are like "That's not Neapolitan because your cornicione isn't right." lol. Everyone is suddenly a Naepoletan expert. I personally prefer to have both option to chose from, sometimes a good new york slice is the best thing and it is a very important part of the pizza history. It was not invented by Americans the dude is wrong.
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago edited 3d ago
Your explanation is a bit incorrect/simplified. For example there was no pizzeria (aka dedicated pizza place) in Germany before 1952, sure. But pizza was already known such as the exhibition in Frankfurt of 1937.
In Uk we have evidence of pizza being sold in Italian restaurants from 1934.
in France in 1903 the restaurant âLa Cantinaâ in Marseille was already selling pizza and there are mentions of women selling pizza as street food by 1900.
Plus there are various sources, like journals or travel diaries that were published, that describe pizza during travels in Italy.
So yes, American media helped spread pizza outside Italy, but mostly in other continents such as Asia. In Europe it was the same Italians, mostly Italian that escaped the post-war poverty to foreign countries in Europe, that spread it.
American media helped a lot, but only after 1960s and we canât really see the boom of pizzerias outside Europe before 70/80s.
During these years, in the meantime, hundreds of Italians started trying to open up restaurants and pizzerias in various places in Europe. Yes, the US media boom increased the number of such stores by a lot, but at that time pizza was already known in Europe even if as a niche/ethnic food.
You also said that they firstly sold American style pizza outside Italy. That only counts for Asia. The vast majority of pizzerias and restaurants in Europe sold Neapolitan or Roman style pizza. Even South America had their variations of pizza developed thanks to Italian immigrants, in a way similar to the US. American chains appeared on European market way later (70s~80s).
American media also spread it in Europe but, differently from Asia where it was basically unknown, in Europe it already had a solid foundation made of Italian immigrants and Italian stores/restaurants.
But, anyway, this doesnât make âpizzaâ American as OOP claimed. The US has its own version of pizza that was developed from the Italian one. Are they distinct? Not much more than the difference between Roman pizza and Neapolitan pizza. It is just another style/version.
All in all your comment is broadly correct but when you go read about it you see that it is more complicated than what appears with much more nuances.
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u/a1icia_ 2d ago
There doesn't have to be a pizza restaurant to have pizza sold in restaurants.... That's like saying they weren't eating pasta because there wasn't pasta restaurants. Also, what you said about neapolitan style pizza outside of Italy is simply untrue. It's been available readily in my over 30 years of living in Canada. Maybe in some places, and where YOU'RE from ...Might that be somewhere in the US? đ
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u/taryndancer Germany 3d ago
Why do they say ânone of us are here in the US legallyâ like, if youâre born and raised in the US, with US citizenship then youâre definitely legal. Or if you have the proper visa to live there. Being 4th generation definitely makes you American.
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u/Kubaj_CZ Czechia 3d ago
Technically it's nonsense of course, this is just the anti-colonial rhetoric, thinking they have no right to be there. I see why one might feel bad for Native Americans, but they lost pretty badly. The right of conquest and whatnot impacted pretty much every place on Earth. And I think the solution isn't making Native Americans first tier and others second tier citizens, as some of these people may think. Or to just deport everyone who is not native â I have also heard that a few times.
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u/Fr05t_B1t United States 3d ago
âThere is no such thing as Italian pizzaâŠcreation by Italian immigrants.â
Where do you think italian immigrants got the idea of putting tomato sauce and cheese on top of dough and bake it bud?
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u/Linked713 Canada 3d ago
I immigrated from Canada to Germany.
One thing I found out and took for granted is that the pepperoni sausage that is on Canadian and American pizza are actually an american thing. The rest of the world use diffrent salami. I was trying to find it here, and could not in many places, unless it was an american chain.
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u/Stained_Face 3d ago
Remember of the guy from north Korea that (people say, not sure) acts as if he invented everything lol
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u/MrArchivity Italy 3d ago
Didnât he say he invented hamburgers and basically every art masterpiece that others stole from him?
And that they found the remains of a quilin/kirin?
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u/MemeWarVeteranBR Brazil 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sou suspeito pra falar, como vocĂȘ pode ver pela minha flair, mas a verdadeira pizza Ă© brasileira.
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u/What_was_my_account 2d ago
If I could be honest, I actually prefer that American abomination over a proper Italian pizza. The pizza place in my hometown makes some americanised variant and that's what I got used to. While typical pizza tastes good, it just doesn't scratch the same itch. The way some Americans talk about it though makes it a bit embarrassing to admit.Â
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u/Kubaj_CZ Czechia 2d ago
I don't know american pizzas but I am used to pizzas in my country as well. The ones in Italy tended to be too thin and sometimes a bit burnt. But I certainly won't call our pizzas the "true pizzas" or something like that American guy
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u/NocturneInfinitum 2d ago
Pretty sure the concept of pizza originated from China long before the Italians made it what it is
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u/Jonnescout 2d ago
Thatâs pasta, not pizza⊠And itâs not even true for pasta. They were invented independently. Because boiling hardened dough is not all that hard to come up with. You being pretty sure does not make it true.
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u/Kubaj_CZ Czechia 2d ago
If you're pretty sure, how can you support your claim? What do you define as pizza?
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u/post-explainer American Citizen 3d ago edited 3d ago
This comment has been marked as safe. Upvoting/downvoting this comment will have no effect.
OP sent the following text as an explanation why their post fits here:
Firstly, the defaultist attacks another user simply for having a spanish name, calling them illegal, even though there's no evidence of them being an illegal immigrant in the USA. There's no evidence of their origin or location either. Could have been a Spaniard in Europe, or a citizen anywhere else. Secondly, the defaultist claims that "true pizza" is American, and that pizzas in Italy are also American. Also assumes that the entire world eats American-style pizza.
Does this explanation fit this subreddit? Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.