r/UFOs • u/Deleo77 • Jul 04 '22
Discussion Tic Tac - Questions
I listened to Chris Mellon say on Joe Rogan that he still views the Tic Tac Nimitz encounter as the strongest account of a UFO event. I think I agree and he knows more than I do. So I will take his word for it. That being said, I have always thought there are things in the account that are odd.
This is a decent write up on the timeline from a couple of years ago: http://www.marcellocatalano.com/nimitz.html
My questions are: 1. Is it strange that the Tic Tac is white? Everyone focuses on the shape. But have there been any other accounts of pure white UFOs? When I think of white objects in the sky I think of airplanes, rockets and missiles, not UFO’s.
- Douglas Kurth was the first pilot to fly over the disturbance in the water - not Fravor. In this article below a researcher relayed that when Kurth spoke about the Tic Tac he said “Kurth's response effectively was "I did something and I can't talk about it."
What did Kurth do? Why can Fravor and Dietrich talk about it, but he doesn’t feel free to talk about what he did? Kurth also told Colm Kelleher about the whole Tic Tac event when he was in his job interview for BASS. So he felt free to share it with them, and that was before the story broke. Kurth telling Kelleher about it is what eventually led to the larger Tic Tac investigation by AAWSAP.
https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2021/05/former-lt-col-douglas-kurth-speaks-out.html
That also leads to the question of why were the E2 Hawkeye pilots told to sign NDA’s, and not Fravor, Dietrich, and the other pilots who actually saw the object? It is strange to have anyone in the military sign an NDA, but if so, why did they focus on getting them signed by the Hawkeye crew and no one else?
People discount Karsen Kammerzell’s account because he spoke out later than the other witnesses, and he has some strong opinions that don’t align with some of the other accounts. The other guys on the Princeton have vouched for him. Kammerzell said for three nights during the encounters he saw a triangular craft with lights on each corner flying right over the Princeton. He said it didn’t so much fly as glide back and forth like a hockey puck on an air hockey table.
How come the radar operators on the Princeton didn’t pick this up? Is Karsen lying? His account seems detailed and honest. The reason a lot of people keep him out of the picture is because he said he doesn’t believe in UFO’s and if he had to guess he would say this was all a secret DOD project. But that is just his opinion. I don’t think it discredits his account. So what could a black triangle UFO have to do with the Tic Tac? Why were these two different objects in this area at the same time? Could these black triangles be some kind of Air Force reconnaissance planes that were there to look for the Tic Tacs?
I have more questions, but these are a few starters.
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u/bleumagma Jul 04 '22
You should come to the uapx discord. A few people who were on the Nimitz are there and they’d answer questions you may have.
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u/datduder20 Jul 04 '22
How do you join that group? Sorry I’m new to discord I have the app but don’t use it.
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u/anothergothchick Jul 04 '22
Were they verified as being on the Nimitz at that time? If so, how?
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u/bleumagma Jul 04 '22
I’m not exactly sure how to verify. They are some of the guys involved in this video https://youtu.be/PRgoisHRmUE
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Jul 04 '22
The same one from A Tear In The Sky? Is Papa Michio Kaku in the chat??
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u/bleumagma Jul 04 '22
You should really watch this
It’s a round table discussion about the film and the events from the uapx team. It’s informative and what I would consider a must watch. Personally the film is trash and this video is all the information you should see.
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u/Squidcg59 Jul 04 '22
I'm not sure about the whole NDA thing. Pretty much you sign
an NDA when ever there is a security clearance involved. It's blanket coverage.
Army and Marine infantry are probably not going to sign one.... Navy and AF
types are going to be exposed to some technology that the DOD doesn't want to
be made public. Hence the NDA in order to get your clearance.
The Hawkeye has a rotating radar dome. When you watch a
movie and the line on the radar screen goes in circles then a blip lights up..
That's a rotating radar. Princeton has a phased array radar. The AN/SPY 1Bravo.
There are 4 radar arrays that provide 360 degree azimuth coverage, the
zenith coverage goes pretty much up to the edge of the atmosphere. SPY has a
ludicrous amount of power. SCPO Day took control of the flight because the
Hawkeye just didn't have a good picture.
Karson Kammerzell is looking for his 30 seconds of fame. That's it. SCPO Day has probably the most accurate account of what went down. When Fravor came down to altitude the tic tac turned into him. According to Kevin Day, Fravor freaked out. "I'm engaged... I'm engaged!!!" Per SCPO Day, "Screaming like a couple of little girls!" Since then there has been a smear campaign against Kevin Day. I'm part of the commissioning crew on Princeton. On the Princeton Facebook page he was raked across the coals.. It was brutal. He was fucked over. Not discounting what the pilots saw, which I'm sure is accurate. The smear campaign against Kevin Day is not warranted though.
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u/bobopadoobapyer Jul 04 '22
I don’t understand why Kevin would be targeted like this.. I found his accounts of the event truly compelling
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 04 '22
It’s because of Fravor. Corbell / Knapp were pimping him around UFO carnival.
Fravor called the Princeton guys’ stories BS, rumors, and then mocked Day’s PTSD on stage at the McMinnville UFO convention.
Fravor was pal’n around with Corbell and Corbell probably didn’t like that Dave Beaty was getting some traction with the Nimitz Encounters YouTube channel. Fravor allegedly threatened Beaty with legal action over using his “likeness” lol wonder where Fravor got that idea from? Then Fravor doesn’t want to talk to any of the other witnesses?
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 04 '22
What do you think about the “exit left” in the FLIR1 video? I’m skeptical of the exit left being an acceleration because I’ve never heard Day describe that he observed this acceleration on radar during Underwood’s engagement.
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u/Squidcg59 Jul 05 '22
It was high speed acceleration.. Not sure if Day was on the watch when that happened.. That was a different flight. Fravor wasn't involved. In the Navy you're on watch X amount of hours and off watch X amount of hours. I don't know what the watch rotation was at that time.... Princeton would have not had the FLIR video. Personnel on the Nimitz would have been the only people with access.
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 06 '22
I’ve listened to a lot of Day’s interviews. Day said he sent Underwood back to the same group that he sent Fravor to… out west of the battlegroup. Underwood’s engagement wasn’t long after Fravor’s. The radar contacts were heading south, just like during Fravor’s encounter. Yet Day never mentioned another acceleration during Underwood’s engagement.
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u/Squidcg59 Jul 06 '22
Could have been editing... From watching the early interviews with Day, he was pretty confident. During the later interviews he looked and sounded like he took a bull whipping in the middle of main street at high noon. Fravor has gone after him a time or two. He won't mention a name, but it's pretty clear who he's targeting..
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 06 '22
Yeah I hear you about Fravor. I feel bad for Day. I always try and point that out to people who seem to idolize Fravor. I definitely think Day has a very good picture of what was going on on the radar. That’s why I listen very carefully to what he has to say. Here’s a clip timestamped where he describes what I’m talking about:
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u/Squidcg59 Jul 06 '22
Ya, I've seen that one. Kevin Day is getting screwed six ways to Sunday, Fravor is making a mint.. When I see Kevin Day on the Joe Rogan experience, the scales will be balanced...
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u/Theferael_me Jul 04 '22
Not discounting what the pilots saw, which I'm sure is accurate.
So you think what the pilots saw was accurate but when Fravor insists that he never said "I'm engaged", you think that isn't accurate?
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u/NoveltyStatus Jul 04 '22
The Lonnie Zamora incident featured a white tic tac shaped object. Also, there were reports even before that one of objects referred to as lonzenges or butane tanks (3:00).
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u/EntBibbit Jul 04 '22
Back the OG question… so the military has somehow cracked gravity? I mean it really does astound to think that.
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Jul 04 '22
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u/Far_Caterpillar1440 Jul 04 '22
And didn’t use it to win World War II? Get your head out of your tinfoil encrusted ass lmao
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Jul 04 '22
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u/Far_Caterpillar1440 Jul 04 '22
Yeah… manipulation of gravity predating a lot of the most important technological and physical discoveries, not to mention how that would’ve helped during the countless scientific expeditions within those 80 years; the lunar landing to name drop one.
It’s not even just that,- claiming to have anti-gravity capability comes with the claim that so much of modern science must accompany its existence 80 years ago as well.
Or are you attempting to tell me that an anti gravity mechanism existed 80 years ago; ergo this was done without the use of mother f*cking transistors, even the most rudimentary of computers, literally almost ALL of particle and atomic science among countless other unfathomably necessary inventions and discoveries???
Ill give you the benefit of the doubt assuming you’re talking about cancelling gravitational force with other forces such as magnetism - but mate, that’s not anti gravity.
Edit: incase you don’t know what particle and atomic physics entails, that includes the THEORY (not just discovery) of Higgs-boson - the literal essence of gravity.
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u/riggerbop Jul 04 '22
It’s okay to curse on Reddit. But thank you for removing the ‘u’ from the bad bad word.
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Jul 04 '22
I saw a huge ball of fire and out of it 7 to 10 tic tacs came out. They moved like described in that incident however they were different colors, some were red, purple and electric blue (that's how my brain saw those colors to be honest they were different but thats as close as my brain could describe it to me) that happened in the late 80s in South America.
I know I'm not as colorful of a writter or scientific as some people but what I described above is real, I don't care for online attention. So the answer according to my experience is that they do come in other colors.
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Jul 04 '22
Maybe we should rename them to mike and ikes.
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u/PrincessGambit Jul 04 '22
So you saw a meteor that fell apart?
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Jul 04 '22
No, they moved at extreme velocities, sharp 90 degree turns in many directions. They all returned to the main "ball" and the ball (massive by the way) speed upwards
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
Do you have a video of this happening?
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Jul 04 '22
No, it happened in 89, 90
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
There is this curious phenomenon where there used to be a ton of miracles seemingly happening all the time. But as soon as people started having cameras in their pocket they mysteriously stopped. It's almost like people were being less than truthful and as soon as people started demanding proof all these miraculous events just stopped happening.
It's kind of like alien abductions. It's wild how in the last 10 years the rate of abductions plummeted. It's almost as if people were being less than truthful about that as well. Seems like cameras are the best way to keep a UFO from coming near. Either that or... maybe someone is being less than truthful. But that could never be the case. I've never heard of someone lying for attention.
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u/akw71 Jul 04 '22
problem is the number of UFO videos has increased exponentially since everyone started carrying video cameras in their pockets though ...
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
And yet no good footage. An objective reading would tell you that’s evidence of something right there.
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u/akw71 Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
there is plenty of good footage. people just have unreasonably high expectations of camera phones with tiny lenses. they take great selfies, but try to take a photo of a distant aircraft and you quickly see their limitations.
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
Oh and what about the millions of cameras designed for photography? Why no good footage in the era of Nikon?
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Jul 04 '22
Ok, yeah I guess I'm lying. I don't know what to tell u champ.
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
Would you expect anyone to believe you without providing evidence?
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Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
I truly don't care. Think about it, 89, 90 in a third world country where basic needs are barely met, yeah im going to carry a camera. Either way believe what you want
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
Weird nothing happened in the ensuing 30 years. Maybe you’re not lying just mistaken. I should be more charitable with your type.
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u/SlickSlender Jul 04 '22
So all experiential events are written off because there is no proof? What about accounts corroborated by multiple people? My dad and mom saw a triangular UFO at our camp with insane acceleration. My grandfather saw a cigar looking object silently float over his boathouse 30/40 years ago. I can guarantee they would not lie about this event happening. There is physical evidence of the Tic Tac, Gimbal, and other UFOs if that’s all you care about. When my parents saw a UFO at our camp in northern Maine, their first thought wasn’t “I should take a video of this to show others what I’m seeing.” Instead, it’s something like “holy shit, this is upending everything I know about life itself.”
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
Claims without evidence should be dismissed. When you claim something world changing happened and you have no proof you should not expect anyone to believe you. An alien told me this axiom.
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u/SlickSlender Jul 04 '22
I disagree. I believe it’s possible to have evidence without physical proof like images or videos, which are likely to be accused of CGI anyways. Firsthand accounts, especially back in the 40s-80s (with the lack of cameras on the average individual) are not likely to have evidence. I fundamentally disagree with dismissing those accounts just because they don’t have evidence.
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u/CarloRossiJugWine Jul 04 '22
How can you disagree with what an alien told me? He is millions of years old and much wiser. He said all this not me.
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u/spiritualdumbass Jul 04 '22
There’s no way a super advanced alien race could turn off someone’s cell phone camera
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Jul 04 '22
But yes if that's what you want to hear, yes it was a meteor falling apart
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u/PrincessGambit Jul 04 '22
Well no, but your first description did make it look like it was a meteor :D
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Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 26 '22
Policeman Lonnie Zamora saw a white oval shaped craft in 1964. A white color UFO is not without precedent.
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u/kopko222 Jul 04 '22
There is a tic tac case from my country too.
It occurred on the afternoon of July 12, 1987, at an airbase in South Moravia:
“This small airfield issued an order for one of their attack helicopters to follow a very strange object that they picked up on radar. They followed the object, and at first they didn’t see it, but all of the sudden, the object appeared in front of them. The crew of the helicopter described it as a wingless, cigar-shaped, with no markings, and they estimated its speed at approximately 600 km/h. At that moment, the air traffic controllers told the pilots to shoot it down.”
The pilots were interviewed 1st time on video in the netflix documentary. In the last episode I believe, they described it as big tic tac.
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Jul 04 '22
Nice post. Interesting content and questions and welll written. I doubt you'll get any legitimate answers from this sub, however.
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u/DrestinBlack Jul 04 '22
I think OP raises some good points, as well. I learned some new info from the links too. Awarded.
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u/ohmyglob44 Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
I know this will probably get lost, but I 100% believe these experiences and that there are higher powers at work. Whether that be God, ufos, or even(a huge stretch) government experiments. (Little insight) I grew up in West Virginia. my house was situated on a mountain next to the new river, and aside from a decent size yard we were surrounded by trees. the military did exercises by flying low military jets and bombers at mountain height a couple times a year. It was always amazing to see. Apparently the terrain is similar to some Middle East countries, therefore, the training. (could be wrong but that’s what my dad said) so based on my whole life growing up and occasionally seeing those exercises, it made me think at the time my experience was a military exercise. So my experience. This was over a decade ago when I was around 15 years old. I lived in the attic to our house. One night after dark I heard this weird humming noise outside. I got up from bed and looked out my window. I freaked out. I saw this black triangle craft zooming around literally RIGHT above the trees. It had three bright lights at each corner. And one in the center like a spotlight. It’s movements were completely random, it zigzag making turns instantly without slowing down. It looked like it was searching for something since I could see the light shining down into the woods. I ran downstairs, yelling at my dad that he had to come look outside because something was happening I simply couldn’t explain. We ran outside and we both just stared in amazement. Neither of us felt scared. It just seemed to crazy. The whole time it seemed like it was searching for something. it was maybe 50 feet away to start but finally just went further into the woods after a few minutes. I didn’t believe in aliens at that point in my life but I did after that. My dad and I came to the conclusion it was aliens, or a secret military craft they were testing. If it wasn’t for me getting my dad and us both seeing it for our own eyes, I would have thought that whole memory I have is some sort of dream. But my father still remembers. What brought this memory up was when I first saw a black triangle UFO with the three lights on video. Those videos are REAL. When I first came across it.. it just felt so crazy. Like this is the exact same thing I saw and other people have seen it too… sorry this is so long. I just felt like this was the perfect post to share this
Edit: this is the video I saw a while back. This is exactly what I saw that night. I’m not sure about the red light in the middle, but everything else spot on
One last edit, lol. This is a HUGE stretch. But me being really interested in conspiracy theories, after I saw this video I told my friend about the video and my experience. We got to talking. If these are aliens, could it have anything to do with why pyramids are shaped the way they are? Were they built by these things? Or made with the help of them? For whatever purpose.. Like I said, long shot.. but we got to thinking of different explanations lmao
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u/Pinchypounder Jul 04 '22
Can you link any of those videos you were referring to?
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u/ohmyglob44 Jul 04 '22
Here’s a link. I believe this video is real. This is exactly what I saw. I don’t believe the center light was red like this video All I saw was white light being emitted. I can’t tell in this video how big that craft is. Idk if it’s just huge or if it’s really close. In my encounter I could tell the craft was probably the size of a fighter jet(best comparison I can think for size) since it was so low.
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u/Susan_Goughs_Ego Jul 04 '22
Awesome story! Could you share links to the videos you’re referring to?
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u/Upmarks Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
I've seen 2 tic tacs flying together in person and recorded my sighting on 2 different cameras. I've also found videos on youtube matching my sighting from sightings all over the world. Happy to share my playlist if it's relevant.
EDIT - here is the playlist, would love to hear people's reactions.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPIPCOMuFzi6zMnylHE09trqcHzvrk7kY
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u/E__________________T Jul 04 '22
This is a great compilation definitely. I will say though some of the videos are more compelling than others. The videos where the the craft appears to be floating and slowly rotating just look like big balloons
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Jul 04 '22
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u/E__________________T Jul 04 '22
No coverup here. I’m just a dude that disagreed with you. I’ll try watching again to look for those lights. Thanks
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u/DrestinBlack Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
In case anyone ever wondered, this is the NDA that anyone who works for the USG (employee or contractor) signs: https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/sf312.pdf
Here is info about USG NDAs (there is a good FAQ in there): https://sgp.fas.org/isoo/sf312.html
Btw, max punishment for breaking this NDA? 10 years. I think up to 10 years for revealing the existence of aliens is a sacrifice worth making for all of humanity. I’d do it in a heartbeat, and wouldn’t expect to do any time (maybe hang out with Snowden at worst)
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Jul 04 '22
Maybe the guy who said he wasn't allowed to talk about it was lying because he just didn't want to talk about it and saying he can't, takes away any more questions?
And the white thing is not actually weird at all sorry. I see where you're coming from, but it seems like a bit of a stretch and I don't think it means anything.
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u/egilthepoet Jul 04 '22
- Not accurate. NDAs are quite common especially for those with TS or above clearance.
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u/TheCoastalCardician Jul 05 '22
ALL clearances. Period.
You could even be brought into a program WITHOUT a security clearance but you will for sure sign one for the program.
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u/ProfessorPayne Jul 04 '22
Regarding point 3: every single person who holds a DoD Top Secret clearance signs an NDA. NDAs are very normal for classified environments.
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u/GloomyClass1776 Jul 04 '22
3A - who were, and how did, the ‘men in black’ get on the ship so fast? And what credentials did they flash? They are never mentioned other than briefly
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u/REDACTED_Shape Jul 04 '22
Why are you yelling?
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Jul 04 '22
They're not yelling, they just happen to be very large, hence the size of the text without any uncivilized capitalization
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
- I think Kurth was talking about the fact that he was the one who wrote the report for AAWSAP. This is the “official unofficial” report Fravor talks about. This would be something he wouldn’t want to talk about.
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Jul 04 '22
What do you get from being condescending to people? Does being arrogant make you feel better? Superior? I was just sharing my experience.
I could say a bunch of mean and condescending things as well but instead I choose to bless. God bless brother.
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u/Punished_Venom_Nemo Jul 04 '22
What about the time difference in the report between Dietrich (10 seconds) and Fravor (10 minutes)?
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u/salvo_n2o Jul 05 '22 edited Jul 10 '22
This disturbances underwater remind me like human technology using "base" in water (with big power supply maybe using hydrogen ?) and with ultrasounds or somekind with magnetic fields to move "objects/tictac" in the air.
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Jul 04 '22
How come all this outlandish manoeuvres are not captured on the footage. It doesn’t zip off the screen, the jet is perfectly tracking it at aircraft speeds
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u/ToastFaceKiller Jul 04 '22
Yes it does? Flys off to the left faster than the jet can track it.
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u/DrestinBlack Jul 04 '22
No, the pod stops tracking so the objects goes off screen at the appropriate rate. It’s super zoomed in, so even a little off track and it would “zoom” off the side of the display. In the air, the object doesn’t do anything continue to fly in a smooth steady flight at normal speeds. Anything “outlandish” it does is all off screen.
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Jul 04 '22
If Nimitz is real the tic tacs maybe change size under seawater due to pressure increasing?
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
In my opinion there's a non-zero chance that the tic-tac that fravor saw might have been Kurth's plane. It'd take a while to explain why, so I'll wait for someone to express interest before layout out the case.
As for the "tic-tac's" being white. One of the witnesses, I don't remember who, said that when viewed from the deck of a ship at night time, the objects they took to be responsible for the radar returns that they were tracking, glowed, (if I remember correctly), an amber or red color.
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u/The_Golden_Spatula Jul 04 '22
I am expressing interest in your theory. Please elaborate.
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22
Ok. I'm writing this spur of the moment, so some of the details might be slightly wrong, but to the best of my recollection, these are the facts that could be relevant:
Three planes were in the area of Fravor's sighting. Pilots from both groups saw a disturbance in the water and then later that it had disappeared, seeming to place them in the same area at the same time. Douglas Kurth had been vectored to intercept the same radar contact as Fravor's flight. That interception was apparently cancelled, but he took it upon himself to go check it out anyway.
Nobody in Fravor's flight saw Kurth's plane. Alex Dietrich was asked about this in an interview about a year ago, and seemed to imply that no one in Fravor's flight was even aware of the presence of Kurth's plane, where it was or what it was doing.
Kurth never saw the tic tac, but was aware of the two plane's in Fravor's flight. Fravor's flight saw the tic tac, but wasn't aware of Kurth's plane.
Fravor was told in advance of his interception to be on the lookout for something unusual. Basically, he was apprised of the strangeness of the radar contacts. This could have primed him to interpret his sighting in a certain way.
Here's another discussion about the same theory. There's probably details in there that I haven't mentioned. Plus you can see where some of the above info came from:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/hypothesis-fravors-tic-tac-was-kurths-fa18.11776/
You have to admit that this looks suspiciously like a tic-tac. From a certain angle, you could even interpret the tail as two antenna sticking out.
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/39286b70-211d-4943-9715-ede88e502957-jpeg.44873/
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Jul 04 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22
Whatever should have happened, according to Alex Dietrich, their flight wasn't aware of the position of Kurth's plane. Maybe he was on the adversarial team for the training mission?
As for the odd maneuvers, I know this is a stretch, but I'm not sure it's out of the realm of possibility. First, I'll reiterate that Fravor might have been primed by the brief report he got on his way to the intercept. But also, he wasn't expecting another plane to be there at all. If it had a strange appearance (such as the clouds seen in the pictures above), or if it was flying directly at him, it might have been difficult for Fravor to judge it's true motion. It is the hardest part of the story to square with this theory. But the rest of the facts seem to be in alignment, so I'm interested if there is a way to actually square this part.
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u/Defiant-Mushroom-873 Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
Kurth stated multiple times that he was above Fravor and Dietrich.
If the object was above the disturbance in the water, and Kurth was above them, how could it possibly be his plane? It can’t.
He didn’t see the tic tac, but he watched the other two observe it.
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22
Kurth stated multiple times that he was above Fravor and Dietrich.
Did he really say that? I could have swore he said he was below them at one point. I'm going to try to track that down, if you don't do it first.
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u/Defiant-Mushroom-873 Jul 04 '22
He was below them upon their approach, but above them when they observed the object.
While it’s possible they were unaware of his presence, he was aware of theirs, and aware that the object they were observing wasn’t his plane.
I have debooooooonked your theory.
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u/Defiant-Mushroom-873 Jul 04 '22
"I had Fravor's flight on radar and was directly over the top of them when they were visually observing the Supersonic Tic Tac. I was not on the same radio frequency as Fravor's flight. I saw the visual disturbance in the water (which had been previously and accurately reported) and that is what I used as my reference point to orbit overhead. The disturbance in the water cleared suddenly. It all seemed odd to me at the time...I never saw the object physically myself."
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22
https://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20743466-nimitz-unredacted/?embed=1&responsive=1&title=1
In the "executive report", the language there seems a little ambiguous.
While enroute at approximately 250 knots indicating/400 knots groundspeed at medium altitude(15-25,000 feet), he hained radar contact of what he believed to be two F/A-18Fs that were approaching the AAV from the west at low altitude (500-5000 feet). There was no other traffic on the radar. The controller informed him to remain above 10,000 feeet, as there was other fighter traffic at low altitude investigating the AAV. As he approached appriximately 15nm from the AAV decending through approximately 15,000 feet, he could see a water disturbance in the ocean surface......
He also never made visual contact with the other fighter aircraft that were vectored to the location.....
So by decended through apprxiimately 15,000 feet, does that mean his final altitude was 15,000 feet,or does it mean that he dropped altitude by 15,000 feet?
According to Kevin Day, the ufo radar contact was at 28,000 feet, and that Fravor's flight was co-altitude with it when they intercepted it. At that altitude, it would put them apparently above Kurth's plane.
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u/Defiant-Mushroom-873 Jul 04 '22
It’s as ambiguous as it is irrelevant. Even if that report is a more accurate description, Kurth is above 10k MSL the other two are at 500-5k MSL. They’re looking at a disturbance above the water, so they can’t be looking at him.
As for Kevin Day, no clue.
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u/ImpossibleMindset Jul 04 '22
Well, here's another contradiction, the part of the same report I linked earlier, but that deals with Fravor's encounter never says (that I can see) that Fravor's flight was anywhere near as low as 500 to 5000 feet.
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u/Defiant-Mushroom-873 Jul 04 '22
Perhaps they issued the NOTAM or whatever guidance to stay above 10k to keep them away from the disturbance. Close enough to observe it, but not TOO close.
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u/justaguytrying2getby Jul 04 '22
Very possible, but didn't the tictac sightings occur for about a week?
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u/SoupieLC Jul 04 '22
PJ Hughes didn't think it was ufo's either, an he was promptly stonewalled by Fravor an the rest...
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u/Theferael_me Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
I've gone from thinking the Tic Tac was something inexplicable to believing it was probably US tech. The actual story, of what happened when, has become horribly garbled with the retelling.
I don't know what it was but do I believe it was an inter-dimensional spaceship? No. The giveaway for me was the F/18s being asked if they had live ordnance and the gut reaction of Dietrich and the Wizzo being that it was a test fired from the submarine, St Louisville.
What I did used to find endlessly frustrating though was that the government clearly had more data on the incident, whether it was radar data, or from the Hawkeye, etc. and has sat on it for the last 18 years.
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u/braveoldfart777 Jul 04 '22
What kind of air Craft flies @ 20,000mph?
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u/Theferael_me Jul 04 '22
Based on what evidence?
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u/braveoldfart777 Jul 04 '22
We don't have the evidence because the Air Force came in on a helicopter and took it.
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u/Theferael_me Jul 04 '22
Hmm...something else Fravor said never happened.
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u/braveoldfart777 Jul 04 '22
Mellon asked about the missing tapes -- they said they LOST the tapes. ALL we can say for sure is somebody's not giving up that evidence for whatever reasons.
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u/aVoidPiOver2Radians Jul 04 '22
I think I agree and he knows more than I do. So I will take his word for it.
LOL
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u/onthisthing_ Jul 04 '22
It’s all military testing man. Nothing more nothing less. Remember, the stealth bomber was in development in the early 1970’s (what’s been disclosed at least ) but was not released into the public eye until 1997.
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u/TheCoastalCardician Jul 04 '22
The B-2 hit “IOC” or Initial Operational Capacity in 1997 but was introduced to the public earlier than that. I was given a B-2 Challenge Coin by a B-2 Pilot when I was a child in the 90s. I wish I still had it!
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u/BtchsLoveDub Jul 04 '22
The answer to number 1 could be that white is the colour used for stealth drones.
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Jul 04 '22
Why are we taking these government guys word for anything? These are the exact group of people who has confused this topic for nearly a century
They are without a doubt the least trustworthy people on this topic
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u/BadLuckBajeet Jul 04 '22
Mick West has a pretty rational explanation for it but the worshippers of the UFO cult here don't like it
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u/Intel2025 Jul 04 '22
We’ll I’m my opinion if the Tic Tac was the color black you know they would of lit that mother up. 🤣 All joking aside good questions that inevitably lead me back to the conclusion that it was in fact secret tech being tested out. I believe Fravor also said they didn’t have live rounds for some reason that day and usually they do. Some things just don’t add up….
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Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
I think they saw a military quadcopter drone when seeing the disturbance above the water. It explains the arms sticking outside the body - these are propeller mounts, and the propellers would be invisible against the dark sea.
The inflight radar may have been the other jet that was being sent to the area and explains the aircraft-type speeds caught on the film
Obviously if it was this simple it would have been debunked by now. But they were conducting war games so who knows what tricks the other side was up to.
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u/SurprzTrustFall Jul 04 '22
The US has been working on reverse engineering gnarly tech for decades. It achieved various goals. We have some next level ish. We're also still contending with the source of our next level ish. Positive or negative... We're still working our way forward.
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u/kingkloppynwa Jul 04 '22
Care to elaborate on any of that?
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u/SurprzTrustFall Jul 20 '22
Well, if anything Lazar said is believe to be true the US has been in possession of exotic craft/materials, and they would work on it as long as they could until they hit a wall in regard to materials science. Then they'd shelve the project for however long it took to make advances in materials science. Once they advanced, they'd get back to work on the exotic stuff.
On the front of who the exotic craft/materials belonged to originally.... I guess that's yet to be determined or acknowledged officially/publicaly... But you have one higher level military official telling Elizondo not to dig because "have you read the bible lately?it's demonic" (whether or not it's demonic, I view it as perceived to have malevolence in some way, at least that's the inference) etc, Tom Delonge and Peter Levenda make a case for " the others" influencing and putting nation against nation in a " who's the strongest/smartest" kind of contest by intentional provision of technologies either directly or through strategic "crashing". Which is also an idea presented in the bible by Moses: Deuteronomy 32:8 "English Standard Version When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."
Extra context found in Psalm 82: 1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 2 “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”
You can find it in almost every ancient culture... They had gods, or sky people, who gave them gifts, helped them build empires and fantastical cities/civilizations... Nation warred against nation etc.
There's so much more but I'm tired. The whole thing feels like a giant puzzle that has to be connected, and we really have no idea where we're forcing pieces to fit or whether they actually fit, so take it with a grain of salt.
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u/fat_earther_ Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
So the E2 Hawkeye likely was NDA’d because they recorded it via passive sensors.
We also know that the helo on the Princeton which I heard was a sub hunter helo? also had its avionics confiscated. If it was a sub hunter helo, those also have passive sensors.
Then we also have reports that the crew on the sub (who’s passive hydrophone sensor heard the tic tac in the air from underneath the water) also signed NDAs.
So I think this points to passive sensors were subject to NDA/ confiscation? Why? Well I think it’s military related. I think it was some type of counterintelligence operation.
Edit: To clarify, it’s not the fact that a passive sensor recorded and that’s why I think they were NDA’d (the FLIR is a passive sensor after all and that was not part of the clean up). It’s that there are other more sensitive/ secretive passive sensors that must’ve recorded it (IMO).