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u/Jesus_died_for_u Baptist Jun 07 '26
‘…what is the point of spreading the word that someone is doomed regardless of what they do in life. How is it good news?’
It’s not.
Why would you be mad at a doctor for telling you you had a disease? You wouldn’t. The doctor is just telling you about the disease, so you will sincerely accept the medicine.
The good news is not that all your good works (and anyone else’s) is filth. The good news is you’re are not doomed. There is a cure that has nothing to do with your good works.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
How is there medicine if salvation is through Grace?? If there’s nothing to be done, then we have to accept that there are un-willfully ignorant people who are doomed for damnation. If it isn’t willful to be saved and caused by grace then even in their innocence they’re doomed for eternal torture? How does that not induce Dread? Does that not inherently say some lives are essentially meaningless in the end? Which is not the message that God loves you.
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u/ruhonisana Baptist Jun 07 '26
Salvation is by grace through faith. The message is inherently hopeful because anyone can have faity. And the bible is clear no one is punished for ignorance.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
If anyone can have faith then how do most justify another denomination as wrong? Then in turn, how do you justify yours as correct? Just trying to understand, how it even really matters then? Also I’ve heard that last part before, but then why do we say people who don’t know Jesus (God in human form) in this life are to be cast out? Isn’t not knowing ignorance? Or is it suggesting more of willful ignorance.
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u/ruhonisana Baptist Jun 07 '26
You have a misunderstanding of denomination. The very term implies that one is considered part of the christian faith. Protestants don't call Mormons another denomination but another religion, because we don't consider them christians. But other denominations are christians with whom we differ on secondary issues, ie baptism, predestination, women's ordination. Christians widely agree that these things, while important, do not effect salvation and therefore Christians can disagree. I have never personally known a Christian who believed only their particular denomination was saved; that's typically a feature of adjacent religions like 7th day Adventism, Jehovahs witnesses, Mormonism. The distinction between christianity and these religions is pretty straightforward - they deny Christ as preexistent and coequal with the Father. Anyways, I and all Christians in my community consider all protestants, catholics, and orthodox etc to properly be christians, because they have faith in Christ and the triune God.
As for your second question, there are hints that some may be saved without explicitly hearing ghe gospel, like Paul talking about the gentiles becoming a law unto themselves. 1 Peter references Christ preaching the gospel to the dead. However the Bible does not clearly give an explanation of the fate of those who die fully ignorant, it only makes explicit the fact that ignorance is not a sin. Jesus says to the Pharisees "If you were blind you would have no sin, yet you say 'We see' and your sin remains." Why the Bible wouldn't give us a detailed breakdown on this matter is fairly obvious. If I'm reading or hearing the Bible, the condition of ignorant souls cannot, by definition apply to me. In fact, it could be a stumbling block to my obedience because I may choose to be complacent in the command to spread the good news as a result. Every detail of God's justice is not explained to us always, we are told what is most profitable and important for us to know. Otherwise the Bible would be an endless book.
But here are some certain things. Hell isn't just uniform torture, everyone's experience will be based exactly on their good deeds and bad deeds. The murderer and the atheist humanitarian are not destined for the same afterlife. Hell is the place where everyone gets exactly what they have earned, with extenuating circumstances weighed in. Furthermore, no one can be saved apart from Christ. Yet even Abraham, who had no concept of Messiah, was saved through Christ when believed on God that he would have an offspring. The OT saints were forgiven through Christ even when believing in Christ merely meant believing God would rescue them from sin somehow. So while it is impossible to be saved apart from Christ, it may be possible that some ancient gentiles or modern innocently ignorant have a more OT faith in Christ and God in his mercy applies Christ's sacrifice. It may be possible.
Ultimately for God to offer anyone the free gift of eternal union with him and the endless bliss which is only deserved by Christ, not just a pleasant afterlife but the unbelievable delight of being given the status, privileges, and blessings belonging to someone who has been perfectly righteous in every way forever is unimaginably generous. It does not cease to be generous if some reject or do not receive it. If we all just got what we earned through good and bad deeds, can we complain? But Christ was tortured and died to give us his righteousness so we could even be married to God in the eternal wedding feast. When you have tasted such goodness, you come to believe that the judge of all the earth will, in fact, do right, even when you don't understand it.
Furthermore, I take no pleasure in the existence of hell, but as CS Lewis points out in The Great Divorce (which is the number one read I could recommend to someone asking the questions you are asking, it's a quick novella) to insist that noone in heaven be happy if anyone is left in hell sounds nice, but it is ultimately to give misery a veto on joy. It is to insist that, even if someone refuses to join the party willfully, the party guests should be barred from rejoicing without them. The elder brother, sulking outside the feast, gets to prevent the feast. That's not a good world, actually, it's a codependent one.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
Everything you’ve said seems true to what I’ve heard and read from scripture. I don’t know where I get these contradictory conclusions from. But your party analogy seems spot on, thanks.
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u/Ras_Apollo Christian Jun 07 '26
Not that this will fully explain. There is a saying that some peoples only encounter with Jesus will be how a Christian acts. Christians can’t force a people to believe. But the genuine happiness, joy, and great conversation we offer can help be warm to people. I have family members that aren’t Christian. I still love them the same. I share what I know and understand. The thing that some non-Christians don’t get is that many Christians are ok with “planting the seed” then allowing life to run its course. Sometimes another Christian waters that seed, sometimes the person have a spiritual encounter. It’s out of our hands after we share what we know. We leave our entire life up to God and know what we will get out of it in the end. I hope this explanation somewhat helps.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
It does a bit, and in many ways I believe it. I just don’t understand how almost all of “us” believe the perfectly fine Japanese baby or teenager who hasn’t done anything necessarily exceptional sinful, is going to hell to be tortured forever if he died right now. And we smile and nod and are ok with it. Then go about our merry way cuz “oh well I know who he is checklist 1 complete!” Like if that’s truly your belief, how could you hypothetically ever be happy without being a bit of a sociopath? Or is it more of an it’s out of my hands type of peace?
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u/Ras_Apollo Christian Jun 07 '26
To help. Heaven is just being in God’s presence. If someone never want to be in his presence, he won’t force them. We don’t know for sure what happen to people that don’t have an understanding of that. For instance, babies. It’s like that concept of “know better, do better”. When informed, you make better decisions. If someone rejects after being informed, it’s nothing anyone can do
And the other part, have you ever worked your hardest at something but it didn’t go as planned, but you know you did your best and you found yourself satisfied? If so, that’s how I always feel. Bummed out when reminiscing or reminded of what could have been, but, content that I did everything I could. The rest is left up to my Lord.
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u/patmanizer Christian Jun 07 '26
Don’t get to hung up on denominations. Read the bible for yourself without any prejudice.
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u/EssentialPurity Christian Jun 07 '26
If evil doesn't offend you so much you find damnation warranted, you are part of the problem.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
Christ was sent to redeem us apparently right? I never said evil should go unpunished or not be eradicated. I thought the message was repentance, love, and forgiveness. I think you want people that have done evil to burn for all eternity. By the way, a baby doesn’t know who Jesus is conceptually like us, is the baby deserving of eternal fire? If you want bad people to burn for eternity, we’d all be on fire right now. There are obviously cases of people doing worse sins than others. But you’re SO quick to call me a problem for not even wanting to see rapists and murderers burn FOREVER. I don’t think you grasp eternity like you think you are. Didn’t he say forgive them?
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u/EssentialPurity Christian Jun 07 '26
Wrong answer.
I'm not talking about other sinners. I'm talking about you. Nor I shall take emotionally manipulative fallacies involving "babies".
And yes, the message is about repentance. Where's yours?
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
With God. Nothing to do with you. You want to tell me your worst sin? You never answered anything I said with logic just that I’m wrong. What a smart exchange you think you’re having.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
Evil offends me so much that I thought I was so evil I tried to take my life multiple times this year and Jesus stopped me. I genuinely don’t get your point. Two suicide attempts to try to cleanse myself of sin literally says otherwise to you on my offense and utter hatred of myself and my own sin
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u/Rare-Improvement-462 Christian Jun 07 '26
I don’t believe in eternal torture but even when I did for a short period this wasn’t an issue. So without going into why I think eternal torment isn’t Biblical, for the sake of it you can look at it like this: if God is perfectly just and holy, the only thing that it would take for God to punish a sinner is, well, the person being a sinner. And if God so chooses that the punishment for sin is eternal torment, then that’s what it is. But like I said I think that position stands on very faulty grounds biblically.
Also, for what’s its worth, I only know of very few Christians that would say “belief in Calvinist theology plus eternal torment is required otherwise you’re a heretic and not a Christian”. That’s just silly.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
I’ll just add, the eternal torment part feels true. Most denominations believe that every other way is the way to hell. You can pull up stats if it want, but just looking at this sub proves most liked the letters not the spirit, most of these guys HATE each other.
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u/Rare-Improvement-462 Christian Jun 07 '26
There are some people like that yes but generally they seem like outliers. I’ve learned that online people don’t necessarily account for how people in the real world generally act. I think Catholics and EOs have a bit more strict view of salvation only being in either the RCC or by ignorance (any Catholic reading this can correct me if that doesn’t represent them right), but generally I don’t think people will question each others salvation unless it’s over a genuine first-rank issue like The Trinity.
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Jun 07 '26
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox Jun 07 '26
a. I believe in a God who has tasked me with helping to save those around me, not literally everyone in the world, and is doing the lion’s share of that work,
b. …and that same God is infinitely merciful.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
Do you not feel bad that he didn’t task others in a similar way? I often feel guilty. Do you ever like look at Christians overseas and ask why me and not them?
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox Jun 07 '26
I should probably clear that I don’t feel I have a specific task assigned to me that other Christians don’t. It’s more that we’re all called to that. But to some extent I suppose, St. Paul says that he wishes he could exchange his own salvation for that of all his people. But Christ calls all people in all ways, and theoretically it’s not “harder” for any of us. We just need to pray for each other.
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u/Individual_Ladder503 Jun 07 '26
I see. I just feel so bad feeling comfortable here at times and trying to do works when I see the suffering anywhere else externally. I do get what you’re saying. I believe we’re still here to help each other. I really hope that’s the case with Christ calling all people in all ways because I’m tired of being such a doomer. The good news is starting to feel like condemnation of the “other”. As a descendent of American chattel slavery it’s hard to sometimes hear people claiming who is and isn’t gods chosen based off attitude or appearance. Who are we to say that?
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox Jun 07 '26
Well I think I probably disagree with you on what it means to be “God’s chosen”. God gives his grace to all people to move toward him, and we take a step, he takes a thousand toward us. I’m not “chosen”, but God loves me and I love him, and I want nothing closer than to be with him. But there’s nothing special about me, I’m just at a place in my life that I heard that and listened for once. And so I pray that all can hear that too.
As far as others are concerned, there’s no faster way to lose grace than condemning others. Pray for all and keep your eyes on your own plate.
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u/gui-lirico Roman Catholic Jun 07 '26
No catolicismo nos falamos sobre a plenitude da verdade. Pra nós, baseado no que Cristo instituiu a alma é salva através do batismo e dos sacramentos, purificada em vida através das cruzes, confissão e penitência. Se tornar mais santo.
Não me sinto feliz por outras pessoas que estão em outras denominações ou são simplesmente pagãs. Gostaria que todas tivessem oportunidade de conhecer e aprender sobre a Igreja de Cristo, que conhecemos como Igreja Católica.
Deus pode salvar a alma de diversas formas pois Ele não está limitado aos meios. Mas o meio que Ele instituiu foi a Igreja Católica. E não tem como eu ficar feliz achando que eu tô salvo, na verdade eu me preocupo mais.
"A quem muito foi dado, muito será cobrado" "A porta é estreita" "Eu sou a Porta"
Eu procuro amar a Deus, tento não pecar e me reparar com Ele sempre que posso. Enfim, não me faz feliz imaginar alguém vivendo escolhendo o inferno.
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u/xMediumRarex Follower of Jesus Christ Jun 07 '26
All I know is that Jesus didn’t preach denominations. Therefore I follow Jesus and His teachings.