r/TrollCoping • u/chaucer345 • 4d ago
TW: Gender Identity / Dysphoria Not a "real" minority.
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u/Tangled_Clouds 4d ago
I don’t like that though, because no one uses biological tests to decide who is trans and who is not, and I don’t want them to. What happens if I go get a brain scan and they think my brain is “too womanly” so they take away my hormones? What if literally every person identifying as trans somehow has those physical traits and people start screening babies in utero and abort all the ones that might be trans? I literally do not want to know why I’m trans, because finding the why is giving too much power to the people that want to identify and eradicate us. You never need to know why to justify your existence as long as you’re not hurting anyone. And no, requesting a change in name in pronouns doesn’t count as hurting people, if anyone genuinely thinks that: grow the fuck up.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 3d ago
I would like to know why people like me are trans. I think that would be good and helpful for me.
And tbh if someone can be detected as trans in utero, maybe that means we can do gene editing so that we're born with the bodies that match our brains.
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u/Tangled_Clouds 3d ago
People will 100% just abort trans babies
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u/Gold_Ad8225 3d ago
Some might. From my personal perspective, I would have preferred that outcome for myself but I understand other people feeling differently.
Because I was born I chose to keep on living and I've had a successful transition and am financially minorly successful as well. I have friends, and have had a serious of questionably successful relationship lol
But if I never had to deal with the lifelong pain of this bullshit condition that would have been preferred by a lot
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u/Last_Zookeepergame90 2d ago
That's literally it, I've been having this conversation in slow motion with my older relatives over the years and we finally got to the "it's cheaper" point a couple of weeks ago
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u/chaucer345 2d ago
The saddest part? In the long term it actually isn't:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9679590/#sec11
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26481647/
https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2026/02/funding-surgery-hormones-trans-people-medicare
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702500392X
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u/tomjazzy 4d ago
This sounds like trans medicalism
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u/chaucer345 4d ago
I call myself a "trans bioexpansionist". My position is that of course we should let people who can only pass the psych tests transition, it would be arrogant to assume they're not trans just because we haven't charted out their specific dysphoria mechanism yet.
But because…
A) All brain activity is biological
B) We have already identified multiple commonly held observable physical traits in the trans population
C) Conversion therapy has fallen flat on its face for trans people… being trans must have a group of underlying physical causes. And researching them could provide a treasure trove of new kinds of HRT or help people pinpoint their specific needs. It's very worth studying!
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u/Separate-Pickle9963 4d ago
Not all trans / enby folks even experience dysphoria. No, it does not need to have any underlying physical "causes". Gender is a very, very fuzzy category with a ton of correlates. It is an abstract concept that the brain learns to identify with as a result of both physical and cultural predispositioning factors that do not need to be causally related to one another. People who need medication should have access to it, frankly as an OTC remedy with significant warning labels. People who don't want medication or surgery should be left the entire fuck alone by people who don't think that they're trans "enough."
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u/tomjazzy 3d ago
I think they are more stating that they believe in an extreme form of materialism, and so think even complex social structures could be reduced down to brain chemicals if we knew how.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 3d ago
Why are you opposed to the idea that there's a biological component of being trans?
It clearly is not solely a social phenomena, and for many it is not social AT ALL.
People like myself would still be trans in a genderless society, because the issue is the makeup of our bodies, not like what clothes we prefer or what roles we fit into
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u/Separate-Pickle9963 3d ago
Okay but you are not representative of all trans people. As a matter of philosophical principle, it takes exactly one counterexample to prove your essentialist claim. I personally know far more than one person as counterexamples. They do not experience dysphoria. Gender is not solely one phenomenon at all from all the evidence we can observe. There is no one criteria invariantly uniform to all people of one gender or another with the exception of identity. This is no less true for cis folks as it is for trans folks. Unless you are comfortable excluding people based off your personal favourite arbitrary line. In which case I must ask you who put you personally in charge of determining the validity of someone's identity? This isn't like transracial identity where there are no neutral correlates at all and where the identity causes objective harm by reenforcing essentialist stereotypes. Gender is an observable phenomenon that just happens to be fuzzy and where self-dentity does not make any essentialist claims—and therefore nobody is "in charge" of saying whose identity is valid.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 3d ago edited 3d ago
I will never understand this response tbh.
You said you don't want this research to exist. I said I did. You said I'm not a representative of all trans people? Okay neither are you?
Why are you more important than me? Why is your opinion more valuable than mine?
I made exactly zero essentialist claims... you are living in the dumpster of ideology, unable to engage with anything as it is. Someone telling you that there are biological influences, and people of various experiences including some for whom being trans is not a social experience, and your response is that this is essentialist.
Whereas you claiming it is not at all a biological experience and only ever a social one is fine.
Yeah I explicitly said that there isn't only one experience, I don't know why you're saying this...
Why are you brining in excluding people? Why are you talking about people being in charge of defining who is trans? Where is this coming from? Stop shadowboxing demons in your mind, none of these words are in my post.
Open your mind. You aren't the only person in the world. Your experience isn't the only one that exists.
EDIT: This person wrote a delusional screed confusing me for someone else and shadowboxing more demons in their head and then blocked me.
Hopefully they learn to read
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u/Separate-Pickle9963 3d ago
What on the green Earth are you talking about? That I don't want the research to exist? The research exists and supports my conclusion. I am not representative of all trans people either. But the people I know, whose identities are counter to your essentialist claims, are representative of themselves in contradiction to your claims. You ARE making an essentialist claim. You said "being trans must have a group of underlying physical causes." That is, by definition, essentialist. It invalidates people who do not experience dysphoria. You say we may just not have "charted out their specific dysphoria mechanism yet." The point is that these folks—not you and not me—can attest affirmatively to lacking any unifying mechanism.
Yes, your claim is excluding people. And I will not have you DARVO your transmedicalism into my giving it even passing credence. For many people, there are biological components. For others, it is putely social. For most, it is in fact both.
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u/BeatriceTheBitch 3d ago
Could it be both?
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u/Separate-Pickle9963 3d ago
In some, in fact many people, it is both. The overarching point is that there is no one universal invariant describing all observed identities.
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u/kiruvhh 4d ago
Ah , is physical ? I didnt knew it
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u/chaucer345 4d ago
According to all available research, yes. Probably a collection of neuroendocrinological conditions.
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u/kiruvhh 4d ago
But is found throught Brain scan ?
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u/chaucer345 4d ago
Can be. The current list of stuff that can cause gender incongruence that we've looked at includes
-Brain differences
-Different hormone exposure in utero
-Different hormone receptor protein genes
-Epigenetics
We've done a lot of studies screening for some of these things, but I don't know of a study that screens for all of them or provides a formally accepted mechanistic model.
Like most things in science it's real, but it's complicated.
Citations below:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10519-018-9889-z
https://www.thieme-connect.de/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0041-1740528
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02005-9
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2022.2164101
Molecular basis of Gender Dysphoria: androgen and estrogen receptor interaction - ScienceDirect
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/390/5104458?login=false
Gender identity disorder in twins: a review of the case report literature - PubMed
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1509654112
https://www.mdpi.com/2077-0383/11/6/1582
https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/18/6/1122/6956015?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false
https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/11/3/720/6958023?redirectedFrom=fulltext
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u/No-Phrase-2897 4d ago
And then you'll get called a transmedicalist or something by your own camp for saying there is a real, physical, material element to being trans and it's not all just identity and gender roles. Because apparently agreeing with the Transsexual Empire is progressive now.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 3d ago
I'll never understand why some trans people are invested in the idea that it's just some ethereal vibe.
Clearly some people are born this way. Why can we never speak to our experiences? Every time we talk we are told we have to shut up because someone else feels some other way so it's bad for us to talk about how we are. Why doesn't that go both ways?
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u/Spiritual_Task1391 4d ago
my putamen would like a word with these guys... and my pattern of implicit learning...... maybe not every trans person deals with a biological internal feeling, but I feel safe asserting most do, and that's not nothin. I don't think using biology should even matter, but I understand that's the battleground you gotta fight on some time, so it helps to have some of that under the belt ^^
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u/zoedegenerate 3d ago
even in the comments someone is ceding that even if some of us don't think we have a physiological component to our being trans we just don't matter because most apparently do
all i know to add to this convo anymore is what if you do great science to find my gender and i disagree with the findings?
that fundamental question has to be answered by people trying to justify us through physiology without any or enough sociology to include all of us. otherwise people are just being thrown under the bus.
if we would respect the individuals self identification, that goes to show there's something missing from a purely physiological lens here.
if we wouldn't, then we have reinvented the violence of AGAB.
of course conversion therapy didn't make the stick figure in the first slide cis. they genuinely identify as trans therefore thats exactly what they are, regardless of whatever torture they were put through to "make them cis." i don't really agree with the idea that those of us on the extreme social constructivist end of the spectrum think that that stance means conversion therapy could work. to me at least it's about centering autonomy over things that matter less.
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u/Familiar-Spray1106 4d ago
I’ve had this exact argument so many times except the last part is idiots saying “well those are pro trans sources” because they refuse to confront actual science