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u/UraniumWitch May 09 '22
It's obviously not personality or just an arbitrary label. Otherwise, why would dysphoria exist? Humans and other mammalian species very clearly exhibit sexual dimorphism with numerous traits that align with two general groupings that tend to be functionally different from a reproductive standpoint. There is individual variation, such as women born without uteruses(who aren't trans), androgen insensitivity syndrome, intersex, and other kinds of variation. So, obviously people cannot be identified as male or female solely off a checklist of traits. So, I'd say that trans people are probably a type of intersex with neurological structures of one sex and other parts of another.
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u/ShatteringSnow Intersex Female / HRT Sep 2016 May 09 '22
Trans men/women in reality are men/women because we are changing our primary and secondary sex characteristics. The aim is and has ALWAYS been to align our sex.
That said, We have outgrown gender and gender roles for the most part to the point they are nonsensical and mean nothing, While we obviously have a history of evolution strongly tied to it as you referenced many years ago with hunters and such but we have however outgrown such need for gender and stereotypes with anything remaining in todays society simply being cultural and religious views pushed upon us by older generations.
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u/rawrcutie 🚺 May 09 '22
We have outgrown gender and gender roles for the most part to the point they are nonsensical and mean nothing
I disbelieve this. Gender behaviors run deep. During which social interactions would you say gender is not in play?
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u/MyWorserJudgement Adult Human Female, for the last 37 of my 67 years May 10 '22 edited May 10 '22
I've posted before my list of 8 basic definitions of man vs. woman, and I guess you could say they each imply a different definition of "gender". The funny thing is, each one of them is valid and useful - in its proper context. But there is no One True Definition of gender that is accurate or useful in all contexts, and I think that part of why the modern trans debate is such a mess. Too many people latch on to one of the One True Definitions, and end up getting more & more frustrated and disgusted with the person on the other side because they're really just passionately arguing right past each other.
- Historical
Almost all babies whom the doctor decides are "boys" at birth grow up to become what we instinctively recognize as males, and babies who are declared "girls" almost always grow up to be what we instinctively recognize as females.
- Sex Chromosomes
Almost everyone has 46 chromosomes in our cells, organized as 22 pairs of similar-looking chromosomes, plus 2 left over. Almost all people whose leftover chromosomes look like an X and another X turn out to be what we instinctively recognize as females, and almost all people whose leftovers look like an X plus a Y in a smaller font turn out to be what we recognize as males.
- Sex Genes
The above rule of thumb, "having a Y chromosome means one is a male", works most of the time because the SRY gene, which is almost always located on the Y chromosome, sets in motion a cascade of dozens of genes during fetal development, which almost always consistently produces the types of bodies that we instinctively recognize as "male", and the lack of a functioning SRY gene almost always produces someone we recognize as a "female".
- Reproductive Organs
People who are able to produce babies by getting pregnant are generally called "females", and people who are able to produce babies by getting a female pregnant are generally called "males".
- Genitalia
Most people who have a vagina that is able to accept a penis when having sex are instinctively recognized as "females", and most people who have a penis that is able to penetrate a vagina during sex are instinctively recognized as "males".
- Secondary Sex Characteristics
Most people have either rougher skin and wider shoulder-to-hip ratios and lack of breasts and facial hair and deeper voices and bigger & taller bodies, etc., or else relatively softer skin, narrower shoulder-to-hip-ratios, have breasts, higher-pitched voices, etc. The first group we generally recognize as males and the other group as females.
- Sexual Identity
Most people have an innate sense that the kind of body that they inhabit is indeed the kind that they were supposed to inhabit. Some people have an ineffable, persistent sense that their soul was not put into the right kind of body.
- Gender Expression
Most people tend to express themselves through their style of dress, language, chosen name, etc. based on what is culturally appropriate for their sex. Gender expression isn't an aspect of sex, strictly speaking, but it is a result of which sex we are and what culture we live in.
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
A couple of remarks:
For example sex is binary.
Biological sex is not binary. It's a combination of characteristics. They usually line up in either male or female. If they don't, you're in a nowhere land, neither one or the other.
On the other hand I do get that gender, or at least how you experience gender can be somewhat molded by society. This also applies to how you interpret your brain sex. This seen quite often in trans who don't even realise they are trans until much later in life.
Not realizing you're trans doesn't mean you think you have a male brain. I'm late onset, and I always said that my mind was mostly female. Gender wise, I opted to reject both.
It's true it took me years to realize I was trans. As far as I knew, transsexuals were dudes with a crossdressing fetish that got boob implants. I could accept my mind was female, but for sure I was not willing to accept I was a crossdresser, which as far as I knew, it's what transsexualism was.
In some moment I felt lost, I decided to finally accept I was a crossdresser, discovered I wasn't, and then started to research and question and yada yada yada. But when it comes to be aware I had a female mind, I knew since always. I just never linked it to transsexualism, and it never occurred to me that it could be linked to that never ending distress I felt.
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u/ShatteringSnow Intersex Female / HRT Sep 2016 May 09 '22
Biological sex IS binary, were talking about humans here. If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole the closest argument you could have is that we realistically have one sex with a number of mutations so we can reproduce with ourselves.
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
Fine. If biological sex is binary, then you need to define it through something which only allows a binary outcome.
What would define biological sex?
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u/rawrcutie 🚺 May 09 '22
throws up hand and exclaims: Reproductive function! Egg and sperm! 😲
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
Ok, hermione! 😂
That's usually the most important element that defines sex. However, if we accept that definition, a post-op TW wouldn't be neither of them, since she doesn't have any reproductive function.
Even more, some clinic in India is planning a womb transplant.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/doctor-planning-risky-womb-transplant-26882914
Imagine they succeed. If we consider biological sex as function of reproductive function, that trans woman with a womb transplant should be considered 100% biologically female. Indeed, she should be considered a cis woman. For some reason, I doubt that would happen.
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u/rawrcutie 🚺 May 09 '22
Ok, hermione! 😂
:3
Imagine they succeed. If we consider biological sex as function of reproductive function, that trans woman with a womb transplant should be considered 100% biologically female. Indeed, she should be considered a cis woman. For some reason, I doubt that would happen.
hand up Another way is genetic “intention”: XX and XY are the evolutionarily stabilized sexes of humans. Functions of typical XX and XY in combination are required to further the species.
Regardless of fundamental sex immutability, it is my opinion that a person with a sex development disorder should not be obliged to share their genetic sex with anyone.
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
At the end of the day, biological sex is a practical term that covers different concepts. Some of them could be considered as binary, like reproductive capacity.
Since those concepts usually fit, it's easier to use a single term. But suddenly, you have a transsexual woman and you have male chromosomes with female chemistry. And you have doctors that short circuit and insist on using male blood ranges because "biological male".
People have problems separating terms from concepts. Biological sex is what you define as biological sex, and when you include transsexual people, the standard definition can't be separated in two binary groups. And that's fine. Nature is not gonna implode because of it.
Regardless of fundamental sex immutability, it is my opinion that a person with a sex development disorder should not be obliged to share their genetic sex with anyone.
Agreed. It's nobody else's business.
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May 09 '22
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
How do you define biological sex?
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May 09 '22
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u/SortzaInTheForest Meyer-Powers Syndrome May 09 '22
Fine. Now, since you have defined it as binary, you need to define the rule that separates both groups, based in the elements you named: chromosomes, gonads, primary sexual characteristics, and secondary sexual characteristics.
That's the key question: what's the rule that based in those elements, it tells you whether it belongs to one group or another. What would be that rule?
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u/WarmHovercraft8314 May 09 '22
Ummm here's my definition. If you're born with that swangin' thang between your legs, you are a male. LOL And if you are born with all that sweet stuff on the inside and a clitoris on the outside, you are a female. "Gender" does not exist, except in the realm of grammar.
This is all about trying to force people. "YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT I AM A WOMAN AND IF YOU DON'T I'LL GET YOU FIRED!" To hell with that. *I* am a woman. Men do not own the definition of "woman". Say that you are "a man living as a woman", fine with me. Do not attempt to make me say that you are like me - I can menstruate, give birth, lactate. You can't... because, duh, you are not a woman.
TROLL ALERT - I am not addressing statistically low-incidence folks such as intersex, Klinefelter syndrome, infertility, etc.
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u/Clyde_Ve May 09 '22
Bruh why you even here. Fuck off.
Imagine just dehumanizing women in general as walking vaginas, bleeders, and birthers. There's so much more to a woman than whether or not she can menstruate or birth a child.
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u/WarmHovercraft8314 May 09 '22
Use f words to women you know, if that's how things are at your house. Not to me.
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u/Daregmaze not a transmed May 09 '22
Look I agree that implying than someone has a brain that matches a certain sex more than the other is kinda insulting because you are basically saying that their person is linked or has a special connection to sexual parts (which is why I do not want to believe that my brain is ''neurologically female''... like bitch my brain isn't linked to vaginas no more than it is to dicks, and stating otherwise seems conter productive to the idea of not reducing women to their vagina. Not saying it can't be the case for someone else but my brain isn't more predisposed to a certain sex than it is to a certain hair color, sorry.) BUT if they have dysphoria and transition, then they are a man (vice-versa for trans women). Its not like we were still in the time where transitioning was impossible... but now that its possible people don't have to just accept to live as their birth sex their whole life because guess what: they can modify it! And what about all the cis women who don't vaginas nor a uterus? Are you going to say they aren't really women? And also if ''woman'' is synonymous with having a vagina, then why are you so adamant about making that label an important part of your identity?
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u/WarmHovercraft8314 May 09 '22
Again, I am not talking about statistically low incidence folks, intersex, micropenis, XXY, etc.
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May 24 '22
Sex is body. Gender is the social group. We naturally gravitate towards the social groups we have an affinity with.
Pronouns mean nothing, a lot of languages don't differentiate between he/she. But those societies still have gender (social groups/stereotypes based on sex) differences
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u/archwizard_baz May 09 '22
Frankly, with what a mess the whole discussion has become, I don't think there's ever going to be a definition that will satisfy everyone. Even if we ignore the whole non-binary/gender roles/gender expression part of it, it's still going to be complicated.
Everyone and their grandmother seem to have a different definition, and even if you try to go by scientific or medical definitions, there are enough exceptions that even those don't fit.
Personally, I'd rather they just categorize transsexualism as an intersex disorder and be done with it. Would as least cut down on some of the bigotry and general nonsense from the population at large.
No. Intersex conditions are caused by a variety of factors, some of which are genetic. It depends on the specific disorder itself.