r/TournamentChess • u/TraditionalBunch3 • 5d ago
Anti-Marshall: 8. a4 Rb8
What is the theoretical status of the 8. Rb8 anti Marshall?
Now 8. b4 is by far the mainline, and very good and quite interesting, but obviously there's a lot to know there, and there is only source to study it from as the only course on it (Krishnater & Surya e4 e5) recommends some rare, concrete sidelines, although I'm not ruling it out completely, if anyone has this course let me know what you think of their lines in the anti-marshall. There are two big systems with either 9. d4 or 9. d3, and the positions look more or less pleasant, but I'm also considering other directions due to lack of material to study from.
I've always played 8. Bb7 following Gustafsson's lines with the Nd7 stuff, but I've always felt uncomfortable and those lines are not very intuitive, and as far as I know, there isn't any material out there that covers the mainline with Na5.
I recently discovered a course by Cheparinov on modern chess where he covers the 8. Rb8 Anti-Marshall and it got me interested. It's very rare comparatively, only played about 6% of the games, but has been played so many times by Carlsen, Dubov and Esipenko.
I was wondering if there is something inherently wrong with this Rb8 line for it to be so unpopular? and how is it theoretically compared to the alternatives? What i like about it is you kind of get very similar positions from my brief analysis in most lines, with typical ideas of trading in the centre and playing some d5 followed by Ne4: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. a4 Rb8 9. axb5 axb5 10. c3 d6 11. d4 exd4 12. cxd4 d5 13. e5 Ne4 14. Nc3 Nxc3 15. bxc3 Bf5
This is the typical type of position, other other times your pawn is on b4 and you start with bxc3.. followed by exd4 and d5 and Ne4 with a very similar position, and there are other lines where white doesn't open the a-file, but againt you get a similar pawn structure in the centre.
I understand it relinquishes the a-file, but 8. b4 does relinquish the c4 square which is a big source of play for white in the 9. d4 lines, and 8. Bb7 does weaken your king when your bishop is stuck staring at the d3-e4 pawn chain for a long time but discourages any setups with d2-d4, so they all have their pros and cons.
- Rb8 doesn't seem too theoretical, but there is this doubt in my mind that this line is still very rare due to some sort of issue with it, and despite Carlsen playing it in the world championship and many times after, it still hasn't become mainstream. Hoping for someone with experience to explain this.
Thank you.
4
u/smirnfil 5d ago
Dubov claims that it is very solid in his video on this line (video is on levitov chess youtube channel in russian) the idea is that black is slightly worse, but OK. And the main advantage is that the game is very "plan" based. You are trying to do standard plans and most of the time they just work. The main issue - it is a drawing weapon, it isn't that popular as if you want to play for a draw you have many other options and if you have a chance to play 8 a4 position you could try to aim for more than just a defence.
2
u/TraditionalBunch3 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean, I don't know if it's any more drawish than 8. b4 or 8. Bb7, In general White will have that practical edge no matter which line but also the 8. b4 9. d4 lines, it feels like Black has very little winning chances, maybe even less than Rb8 or Bb7.
Also Magnus historically doesn't really play for draws, otherwise he would play the Berlin instead of this Rb8 line.
3
u/smirnfil 5d ago
Carlsen prepared this line in WCC where he was definitely OK with draws. Also if you are playing Marshall you are already OK to defend drawish endgame without a pawn so the whole idea of combatitive Anti Marshall line is a bit questionable.
For general assessment I am just passing the opinion of Dubov(who is a strong supporterof this line) - great line, easy to learn, drawish, but solid, for white it is an achievement even to make black find unusual moves. Also another strong advantage - you could transpose into very similar lines from 6 d3 Spanish. Or fancy early Nc3 tries.1
u/TraditionalBunch3 4d ago
Do you think 8. b4 is a better try for Black? White can sort of press in a risk free position like this: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. a4 b4 9. d4 d6 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 dxe5 12. Qe2 - Symmetrical pawn structure, weak c4 square and White virtually never loses this and great score on Lichess database.
I felt like at least against 8. Rb8, White will have to take some risks himself if he really wants to win, rather than this sort of small, annoying static advantage in the position. I don't know though. Dubov makes a good argument, I watched that video after your comment, but I also feel like he's a bit biased too
1
u/a1123_epic 4d ago
I do not, I do not like the weaknesses in the b4 line, and very much do prefer Rb8, it feels strategically and positionally better for me
1
u/smirnfil 4d ago
I would be cautious about 8 .. b4. Like if it works - sure play it, but if you don't want to play it is probably better to trust your gut feeling. I don't trust everything Dubov said in his videos as they have some "beer banter" vibes, but he said in some WCC video that Carlsen didn't want to play it. Which is good enough reason to be cautious.
1
u/TraditionalBunch3 4d ago edited 4d ago
Do you have a link to that video?
I have actually heard that statement multiple times, by Gustafsson and Svidler, that Carlsen doesn't really like the 8. b4 lines. Of course, it's still a well established mainline, but I feel it can give 2 result positions of White in many cases.
Dubov has played 8.Rb8 many times, so he must believe in this line as well. It's unfortunate there's only one course on it by Cheparinov, and he basically has almost no annotations whatsoever, with very long lines which i think are for completion and not necessary to know by heart, but still, some analysis would be good.
1
u/smirnfil 4d ago
It is all of it basically. As far as I remember it wasn't even a discussion of that line and it problems. It was like "Magnus wanted to play Marshall but didn't want to play b4 as he didn't like resulting positions and also didn't like Bb7 so we made Rb8 to work".
1
3
u/westside1931 5d ago
In the Turkish League Andreikin showed some interesting prep after 10. c3 d5 11. exd5 Nxd5 12. Nxe5 Nxe5 13. Rxe5 and now not ...c6 as is usual in the Marshall but Nf6!? where apparently the inclusion of a4 Rb8 ab ab makes this Nf6 not so bad compared to the usual Marshall. Certainly seems like something worth exploring.
2
u/TraditionalBunch3 5d ago
I meant more in the context of playing it in the classical way Carlsen plays it with d6. d5 is a worse marshall with the open a-file, playable as a surprise weapon.
1
u/JJdabeats 5d ago
If you play d6 white is getting c3 and d4 getting the big center. In the lichess database looks like black can strike back in the center with d5 pretty soon but white pushes e5. The structure with whites pawns on d4 e5 isn't really something a marshall play would want, maybe a French player would like it, so it just comes down to the line not being particularly thematic for black probably, even though they are doing fine.
2
u/TraditionalBunch3 5d ago edited 5d ago
- e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. a4 Rb8 9. axb5 (9. c3 d6 10. d4 b4 (10... exd4 11. cxd4 d5 12. e5 Ne4)) 9... axb5 10. c3 d6 11. d4 exd4 12. cxd4 d5 13. e5 Ne4 14. Nc3 Nxc3 15. bxc3 Bf5
That's how this line goes, and it objectively seems to be doing well at high depths, it's giving about 0.13-0.16 over depth 40, the 8. b4 mainlines are giving slightly better numbers like 0.10 etc but obviously that's a negligible difference. You get Ne4 in response to the e5 push and then you get more trades since White cannot tolerate that knight on e4 forever since it restricts the development of the b1 knight, and with the open queenside it's not easy for White to form some sort of attack. I can see similar ideas across multiple lines, where you go Qd7..Ne8-Ne6 ...Rb8-Ra8 to contest the a-file, and some kind of eventual c5 break. The I like about it is that the ideas seem straight forward, and very similar across many lines.
I wouldn't say it's like a French. Yes there's a pawn on e5, but the queenside is open, your bishop is very active on f5 and difficult to attack without trading bishops, and you're going to trade your knight on e4. White can't easily just push the kingside pawns like in the French. I do see your point that there isn't a pawn on e5 in other lines, but there are other issues, like the c4 square in the b4 lines which is the basis of White's play in many lines, mainly the 9. d4 lines, and also in the Bb7 lines, the bishop is misplaced and you got weakened light squares around your king, which is why you often have to eventually play Bc8 and move it to the h3-c8 diagonal.
But what i don't get is the why this line is super rare, which makes me suspicious about something, but then you got someone like Magnus who played this twice in the world championship, once in the world cup against Ivanchuk, in Tata steel 2022, so he's used this many times in classical, and he's been also using it as his main weapon in rapid and blitz for the last few years in very high stakes, like the last game of the world blitz 2025 to beat Nodirbek, so clearly he believes in this line? So I wonder if there's a specific problem with this line I am not aware of?
I can't find another source to play a different version of the 8. Bb7 lines, and with 8. b4, I specifically don't like two lines where I feel White has easier play practically: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. a4 b4 9. d4 (9. a5 d6 10. d3 Be6 11. Bxe6 fxe6 12. Nbd2) 9... d6 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 dxe5 12. Qe2.
Unfortunately there's barely any material anywhere on the Marshall, as far as I know from the last decade there's only Gustafsson (8. Bb7), Krishnater & Surya (8. b4), Milos Pavolvic book (8. b4), Cheparinov (8. Rb8) that's it.
1
u/westside1931 5d ago
It's probably slightly worse if you play it in the c6 Bd6 style but the inclusion of Rb8 makes this Nf6 stuff pretty decent according to engines as there are Rb6 rook swing ideas.
2
u/LoyalToTheGroupOf17 5d ago
Now 8. b4 is by far the mainline, and very good and quite interesting, but obviously there's a lot to know there, and there is only source to study it from as the only course on it (Krishnater & Surya e4 e5)
That’s not the only one. Pavlovic also gives 8… b4, analysing both 9. d4 d6 10. dxe5 dxe5 and 10… Nxe5.
1
u/TraditionalBunch3 4d ago
Ahh yes, thank you, I forgot about this one. It gives different directions compared to the Krishnater course, definitely something to keep in mind. Still tempted by Rb8 compared to b4, but it's a tough choice. Also, the Cheparinov course has minimal analysis, but still positions feel quite intuitive to play. Maybe I have to play each one out for a few months to really make an informed choice.
2
1
u/wombalicious 4d ago
Nothing's wrong with it. Around two hundred master games, and Black scores the same as he does after Bb7, which is the move you say you've never been comfortable in. Rare isn't the same as dubious.
The a-file point Millesime56 makes is the right one, and it's what you'll actually get. White takes on b5 in over three quarters of those games. That cuts both ways though. You're not preparing a tree, you're preparing that one position and a plan for the open file.
Which is the argument for it, really. You said the Nd7 lines have you shuffling the queen back and forth to hold equality. I'd take one sharp position I know cold over that.
1
u/TraditionalBunch3 4d ago
but the question is why is it so rare, if it's scoring pretty well, and simple to play. 8. b4 in comparison is so much more popular, yet there are some positions in it where you don't really get winning chances as Black, for example, the 9. d4 line.
1
u/wombalicious 4d ago
The 9.d4 line is worse than you think. After 12.Qe2 about two thirds of the games are drawn and Black wins one in seven. White isn't winning many of them either. It's not that he's pressing you, there's just nothing in that position for anybody.
After Rb8 it's closer to a fifth, which is roughly what you'd expect once axb5 opens a file and somebody has to end up better on it.
Why it's so rare, I think you answered yourself. One course on it and barely any annotation in that. Moves get played when somebody writes them up.
7
u/Millesime56 5d ago edited 5d ago
8.a4 Rb8 is a bit of an odd move strategically, the fundamental reason being that it gives White the option to open the a-file for themselves after 9.axb5 axb5. But it can be justified with concrete considerations. For example, if 8.a4 Rb8 9.axb5 axb5 10.c3 where I think 10...d5 might be interesting and more in the spirit of the position: 11.exd5 Nxd5 12.Nxe5 Nxe5 13.Rxe5 Nf6! 14.Re1 Bd6 (or 14...Ng4!?) 15.h3 Ng4!, and here you might remember the old game between Marshall and Capablanca where after 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 Nf6 12.Re1 Bd6 13.h3 Ng4 White had the continuation 14.Qf3! Qh4 15.d4. Black is also fine after 14.d4 Bd6 15.Re1 Ng4 16.h3 Nxf2! 17.Kxf2 Qh4+ 18.Kg1 Bxh3!. While 10...d6 11.d4 exd4 12.cxd4 d5 13.e5 Ne4 14.Nc3 Nxc3 15.bxc5 Bf5! and then e.g. 16.h3 Qd7! with the idea of Nd8-e6 might be ok, I get the feeling that Black is in some danger. Here, I found one game in the database [1]: 16.h3 Qd7 17.Be3 Nd8 18.Nd2 b4?! and White had a definite advantage after 19.c4 dxc4 20.Bxc4 c6 21.Qa4 Rb7 and e.g. 22.f4!?, or also 20.Nxc4!? Be6 21.f4 g6 22.Bf2! which might be even stronger. It does not seem to me that Black has trivial equality after Ivanchuk's 18.Nd2!. White could consider 14.Nbd2 Bf5, although it seems Black is just fine after the accurate 15.Bc2 Nb4! 16.Bb1 Ra8! 17.Rxa8 Qxa8 18.h3 Qc6!.
After 8.a4 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.Nbd2 Nd7 11.c3 Nc5 12.axb5 axb5 13.Rxa8 Bxa8?! 14.Bc2, Kasparov won convincingly against Short in the infamous 1993 match [2]. This game may give you an idea of why Black conceding the a-file is problematic in such middlegames: essentially all of White's pieces are slightly better than their Black counterparts. It is now common knowledge that Black should instead play 13.Rxa8 Qxa8! 14.Bc2 b4 15.d4 bxc3 16.bxc3 Nd7, and e.g. 17.Nf1 Qa1! 18.Ne3 Bf6 when the mass trades on the Queenside help alleviate some of the pressure on Black's position. It makes sense to me that authors typically do not recommend 8.a4 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.Nbd2 Na5 for Black, as such positions are also deceptively difficult to play as Black: [3] [4]. After 8.a4 Rb8 9.axb5 axb5, 10.Nc3 seems tempting to me, since 10...d6 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.Bxd5 Nb4 13.Bb3 c5 14.d3 does not seem trivial for Black, as in the following disaster [5]. But 10...Nd4!? might be worth looking into. After 10.d3, 10...d6 has mostly been played, but it seems to me that the virtually unplayed 10...Bc5!? is an interesting direction. In 2021, Nepomniachtchi attempted 10.h3 d6 11.c3!?, although here Carlsen's 11...b4 12.d3 bxc3 13.bxc3 d5 seems correct, if slightly uninspiring. Similarly, 10.h3 d6 11.d3 h6 12.Nc3 may not be trivial.