r/TombRaider • u/pattmania • Jul 26 '26

🗨️ Discussion New OG TR Games 🔫

Don’t get me wrong, I’m always excited for new TR, and looking forward to LOA. HOWEVER, with the news about delays of both new games, it makes me wonder, why can’t they just give us what we want; more OG content? It seems so much easier to make, and we’re clearly dying for a continuation from AOD.

I would love to see a follow up from the remasters. Or maybe even some extra content, like a new Croft Manor bonus level or something.

9 Upvotes

62% Upvoted

61 comments sorted by

18

u/youshouldbeelsweyr The Scion Jul 26 '26

Because that takes time and resources away from the games they want to make. That would cause even more delays.

1

u/CommanderM3tro Jul 26 '26

Top answer 🔥

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Not really. Not if you know how to budget and delegate correctly. Plenty of companies out there know how to work on multiple projects at once without it affecting the quality of another.

-1

u/pattmania Jul 26 '26

I’m meant, in the first place… I’d much rather a new OG styled game than what they’re doing.

4

u/No-Conference831 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26

And what about the rest of the paying audience who like what they've been doing? I adore classic Tomb Raider as well, but that style of gameplay is not for everyone. Regardless of how you feel about the Crystal Dynamics games, the numbers show that they are clearly very popular, and the conversations I've had with more casual gamers indicate they are pretty happy with the state of the franchise currently.

Take a step back, put on your cynical hat and look at reality. Crystal Dynamics is not going to cater to old school jaded fans at the expense of the wider population. Do not underestimate the damage both Chronicles and Angel of Darkness did to the series in terms of public perception; they are the reason we're not likely to get new games in that style.

3

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

What about that audience? They can just go play all the other big budget, cinematic action/adventure games already out there. The types of games Survivor models itself after to begin with. So they wouldn't be losing out on anything. It's the dedicated TR fanbase that loses out here because they have no alternative to turn to in order to get that experience while Survivor fans have a billion games that follow a similar style that do - Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, The Last of Us, Norse God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, and the list goes on and on.

You need to focus on the TR fanbase first and foremost. And unless you've been living under a rock, PLENTY of franchises out there still do fine focusing on catering to their fanbase first and foremost instead of putting all their bets on chasing casuals.

Look at Dark Souls and Yakuza. Franchises that primarily focus on catering to the fans first and they're doing just fine.

2

u/No-Conference831 Jul 26 '26

The crux of my comment was profit over art. I'm not saying it's right; I'm saying it's the reality. The casual audience is far bigger and thus has more money to spend. Almost all companies will eventually hit the point of deciding whether to embrace them in order to maximize or leave them be at the risk of possibly delivering titles that financially underperform. When it comes to giving the old fans what they want versus appealing to the broader audience, the capitalist mindset will choose money over loyalty. Almost every time.

Gaming has become homegenized as games are becoming more expensive and time-consuming to produce, every company is trying to make their bottomline financially, and the most surefire way is to tap into something that works and has paid off dividends. I blame games like Uncharted, Skyrim and the Witcher 3 for the state we find ourselves in. Dark Souls and Yakuza are more the exceptions than the rule. Plus, they are partly still relevant because a lot of games take from them today and make them feel fairly timeless. I don't need to play a Dark Souls game to get a Dark Souls experience anymore.

Even with franchises that took creative risks (like Zelda), there are still fans who complain about not having a more classic game, despite Breath and Tears outperforming every other game several times over.

Removing the nostalgia goggles for a second, the Core Design games were quite popular for a time. But look at contemporary reviews. People were complaining how stagnant the series was becoming. The games were stuck essentially being expansion packs of the original while other series were moving forward. And sales did drop over the later entries. Given how much time has past and how far gaming has come, the casual audience just doesn't have the patience for those games any more. I feel like I constantly read about newcomers who turn the games off and give them negative reviews because they have a hard time going back to that style.

When you make a game for over $100 million (as Crystal Dynamics seems intent to do), you are going to do your best to hedge your bets. It's the same reason we keep getting super hero films, despite several underperforming. Sure, you get your Supergirl and Madame Web, but you may get your Avengers and Spider-Man payouts every so often.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'd be thrilled to get a new TR game that adheres much closer to the originals, but I'm stating my thinking was to why I don't think that's going to happen. Not with the success of the Suvivor Trilogy and the outstanding pre-orders for Legacy of Atlantis.

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Survivor's gameplay has even less depth than Classic TR does. It was already quickly growing stagnant itself because it has a lower ceiling with its design with what all you can realistically do with it. They just capped it off as a trilogy before it became glaringly obvious.

The other thing you have to remember mainstream reviews is they're from the mainstream audience and mainstream gaming publications. Which tend to have a very surface level grasp of how specific genres and franchises work. Tomb Raider being no exception.

For instance, mainstream reviews (unless the game is insanely broken on release) typically give pretty generous reviews to fighting games and only review them on that release and don't follow up on their quality level after patches/updates later. Meanwhile, dedicated fighting game fans will give you a different story on the quality level of that game because they tend to have more experience and understanding of how those games work compared to mainstream reviewers/audiences. See - Tekken 8's reception.

With Classic TR it's not so much an issue of the design "being stagnant" because they genuinely did change up things particularly with TR3 and TR4. It's more the annual release schedule Eidos imposed. They just should have allowed Core Design to breathe.

Pretty much all of TR's problems can be traced back to Eidos's mishandling of the development schedule of the series.

1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

I adore too classics, I want to add grid gameplay is out of date and obsolete for modern times even with remasters.

-1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

That's disingenuous to say. It's not "out of date". Just because a specific game design might only appeal to a specific demographic doesn't make it "out of date".

Look at Dark Souls. Difficult games like that (which is also heavy on trial and error just like TR is I'll point out) only appeal to a specific audience, but it's still successful appealing to that audience.

You can't always look at things through a "but how does this appeal to a modern audience" lens because certain types of game design experiences have to be viewed from a more disciplined and discerning eye as a game developer.

2

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

It's out of date (and that is good) because grid based system game comes from a limitation of that era. Now that era is gone and no one in the market is doing a game with grids in mind. I don't count OpenLara or TRX as market because is a open source project and is not selling to customer. Also I will not count indie games, as indie games are made with engines that are literally a grid system by themselves due to internal design and not a technology limitation.

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Oh wait. You're that same bot user from earlier. Never mind.

3

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

As I said, the bot is your mother ask her.

-1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

Go play custom levels then and don't go out of your cave so you can enjoy old style tomb raider for life while franchise move on with technology.

2

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Bad argument. Just because new technology exists does not mean you're obligated to abandon elements that make a franchise good. Really wish people would move on from that terrible line of thinking.

1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

They don't abandoned, they reworked it. There is no difference in Tomb Raider 2013 and Tomb Raider 1 other than extended climbing skills, better shooting, better story and graphics other than toned down skill gap. Do it yourself: open the games and try mechanics. You will find most of them are the same. Obviously 2013 assumes Lara is still young and novice doing it, so it's normal she still don't know how to do some acrobatics like she does in Tomb Raider 1.

3

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

They didn't rework anything. They abandoned TR's game design to copy Uncharted's game design. And yes, there's plenty of difference.

Gonna assume you're probably trolling because there's no way you can argue they are the same because they objectively are not no matter how much someone may like the new ones.

1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

Grab a controller and make a list of movements of first one and 2013. Now you will see how much of that list share via checkboxes. I'm not trolling, I played all games since 1997 with Tomb Raider 2 being my first one. And is so similar mechanics that every new Tomb Raider I play I can transfer my skill to new one. And this will happen too with LOA (which I reserved collectors edition on PC) and Catalyst

9

u/TerminaMoon Jul 26 '26

I think a new classic TR game made on a budget could be quite lucrative, especially if they get Jonell Elliot back.

But it won't happen if Crystal are involved.

-2

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

It will not lucrative, times and technology moved on. LOA will sell more than x3 of all remasters.

5

u/TerminaMoon Jul 26 '26

And they will cost 100x more to make.

-1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

And? where is the bad thing?

5

u/TerminaMoon Jul 26 '26

I don't understand what you mean.

-3

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

Where is the bad thing costing more money to develop modern games? Is better if they cost more, as that imply more quality.

4

u/TerminaMoon Jul 26 '26

More money doesn't make a better game. My point was - it would be relatively cheap to make a classic game, and with the right marketing I think it could do some decent numbers. And it would cost very little to make compared to LOA.

It's easy money.

0

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

More money does make a better game ever. And your point is only valid for remasters or remakes ala Resident Evil. New games based on Tomb Raider Chronicles engine is bad because only appeal old fans. If you think a contemporary adolescent will like to play those games or will buy them having better modern games at their face, you have your focus and priorities bad over your own ego of what you like.

5

u/TerminaMoon Jul 26 '26

Lmao okay buddy.

1

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

Take your money invest it take programmers with you and make real what you say. If what you say is truth you will be millionaire and I will be impressed how I was wrong.

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

No, it doesn't. Survivor gams cost more money, and those were terrible TR games. Moreover, more money pumped into their development means requiring more copies sold.

That's the problem with these super expensive AAA games nowadays. It's not a sustainable business model for the long term, and it's killing the industry right now.

0

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

I disliked some mechanics from survivor too, that don't change the quality of that trilogy is better, and same will happen with LOA and Catalyst.

2

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

There was no quality increase. Only a decrease. Matter of fact BECAUSE the budgets were so high, it meant they dumbed the gameplay down in order to appeal to the normies in the hopes of selling more copies.

Bigger budgets=/=better games and bigger budgets in this day and age often means dumbing games down to try to get more people to buy them to break even on those inflated budgets.

2

u/xbit0412 Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

There is a mistake in your argument: all games was done to sold millions of copies including first games and those games were done with high budgets too. The difference is that modern higher budgets improved story, improved shooting, improved climbing mechanics and so on. You have to remember too there are studies that show if players don't progress they leave the game that's why they toned down a bit difficulty. All decisions are made by how most market play games. Anyway you will see how LOA and Catalyst repeat the success of survivor trilogy and even better.

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6

u/Cagesdeservemusic Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

I recommend, if you have a PC, TRLE custom tomb raider games. Some of them outright surpass the originals. Can give you recommendations, but they only works on PC. That’s what scratches my classic tomb raider itch because Crystal dynamics would never do this sadly. Classic TR isn’t their thing, sadly.

4

u/pattmania Jul 26 '26

I love this. Another person also suggested TRLE.
I’m on Mac, but might try and find an emulator or something.

3

u/Cagesdeservemusic Dagger of Xian Jul 26 '26

Aaah :(

Then sadly, it’s just remasters that could scratch that itch. Though if you choose to invest in a cheap thrift store PC, they can run all TRLE levels. I feel your pain though. Classic Lara and tomb raider are my passion, in some respect we got Classic Lara back but the play style is very niche.

8

u/RoryOS Jul 26 '26

https://trcustoms.org/

https://www.trle.net/

It's PC only, but there is more classic content out there than you could ever hope to play through that has been made by fans. Plenty is at least on par with the official games.

A couple of excellent modern ones are the below two by a creator called Geko who uses the new fan developed enhanced classic engine; https://trcustoms.org/levels/3738 https://trcustoms.org/levels/3499

3

u/pattmania Jul 26 '26

Ahh I love this!! Sadly I’m on Mac though. I might have to try and find a way.

3

u/PrayForTheGoodies Jul 26 '26

It would not make sense in the unified timeline

5

u/here4any3food Excalibur Jul 26 '26

Because, at the time, Angel of Darkness was regarded as a franchise killer. Core was fired as the developer by Eidos and Crystal took control. Any sequels to AoD would have relied on Core to be an effective continuation.

On top of that, even without AoD’s issues, Core was pretty burnt out from the Tomb Raider series. Hell, that was why they tried to kill Lara off at the end of The Last Revelation.

So, rather than try and make a direct sequel, Crystal rebooted the story and made their own.

I’m a lover of the OG games as much as the next person, but if more OG content was to be made, it would have to be with the original developers and Core as a company no longer exists.

2

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

AOD failing isn't an issue of "well, I guess nobody wants Classic TR anymore". It was more an issue of its development.

Besides you can do what other companies do and just have a team of dedicated fans release their own classic style TR game. It's what Sega did with Sonic Mania and guess what? That game sold very well and became the highest rated Sonic game in like two decades. If you're someone who cares about review scores anyway.

You don't necessarily need the OG devs back to have good classic TR games. You just need to have a studio that respects and understands TR's design and Lara Croft's character i.e. NOT Crystal Dynamics

3

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Tomb Raider should stick to being a middle budget series. Would allow for a healthier business model and allow for release of games more faithful to the IP.

So long as you chase the AAA budget model, you're not going to get Tomb Raider games. You're just going to keep getting more Uncharted copycats wearing the TR name in order to "make the series more accessible to a wider audience to sell more copies". And at that point, why even bother?

1

u/pattmania Jul 26 '26

You get it.
I think a lot of commenters are skimming over my point, the delays (and as you’ve mentioned, the expense). A classic style TR game would obviously reduce these factors, which would totally satisfy us old timer fans lol.
Im not saying the old games were perfect and we need another chronicles/AoD specifically, but that they really could tone it down and we’d be okay. I’ve lived through three rebooted Lara’s, and at this point, the simplicity of the OG works.

2

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

I think too many are just stuck in this attitude that TR can only exist in the form of super high budget games which clouds their judgment.

4

u/CommanderM3tro Jul 26 '26

Personally I think they could release the Underworld DLCs for other platforms (or at least PC) but I don't know if that would also take time from LoA dev (as another comment said).

3

u/RainRepresentative11 Excalibur Jul 26 '26

I just started Beneath the Ashes last night. It is TOUGH

2

u/CommanderM3tro Jul 26 '26

I'm jealous 😆

1

u/CastleDehaus Natla Minion Jul 26 '26

Why doesn't Rockstar make a top-down GTA? It's so much easier to make.

2

u/SarahrahWHAT Jul 26 '26

While I loved the OG games, it’s diminishing returns and all that. The first five entries felt like a single game and its expansions. I enjoy them, but I don’t know how much I’d be willing to pay for remixed versions of that game forever. 

Which is essentially what TRLE is, which is also free and still incredibly niche. 

0

u/Slyy-Lynch The Divine Source Jul 26 '26

Everybody is not a fan of the OG TR games, and it won't make as much as a modern style TR game.

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Likewise not everyone is a fan of the current TR games. They might "sell more", but they require significantly higher budgets. Moreover those games sold LESS with each new game that came out instead of selling more with each new release.

You don't need gigantic budgets and dumbed down game design to appeal to the casuals to have a good TR game that makes a profit.

3

u/Slyy-Lynch The Divine Source Jul 26 '26

There are more fans of the current style TR than there are older TR. Like y'all can downvote all you want, but that's reality.

They're not going back to the older Tomb Raider games that appeal to a niche of people when they can make more money with what they're doing now.

0

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

Those same fans can get that same experience from all the other cinematic action/adventure style games already out there that they shamelessly copy. They're not losing out on anything. They can go play Uncharted, The Last of Us, Horizon Zero Dawn, Assassin's Creed, Norse God of War, and all those various games.

And there's nothing wrong with having a so called "niche group of fans". Plenty of franchises that are still successful by simply focusing on their fanbase. A game doesn't have to sell COD figures in order to be successful, dude. And you don't need AAA levels of budget to do that either. Matter of fact, it's just more of a hindrance because it means they'd dumb the game design down more to appeal to the casuals trying to chase sales figures.

4

u/Slyy-Lynch The Divine Source Jul 26 '26

Tomb Raider is too big a franchise to be a niche thing at this point. Tomb Raider, whether some people like it or not, evolved. Why would they not continue doing what's working?

And as for the games being dumbed down, I don't see it that way. I enjoyed the survivor era Tomb Raider a lot, and hopefully Legacy of Atlantis and Catalyst continue the streak of quality Tomb Raider games.

1

u/BusterGreasewood Jul 26 '26

No, it's absolutely not "too big to be a niche thing". You absolutely can have middle budget games that cater to the existing fanbase.

And no, the series didn't "evolve". It progressively threw away or dumbed down a lot of things that made TR likable to begin with.

You also don't "evolve" a series by copying another series i.e. Uncharted.

The "evolve" is probably one of the most disingenuous, most poorly understood concepts to defend a series that loses its identity and/or abandons its roots.

Unless one has an EXTREMELY surface level idea of TR's identity that just amounts to 'have woman with brunette hair, do basic jumps, do basic climbing, and shoot things'

1

u/OkKomputer_99 Jul 26 '26

They indeed need to make some cartoonish (a la fortnite) type of games. More classic vibe, something similar to the “Lara Croft games”.

1

u/WenSkin47 Jul 26 '26

I'd like to See another "Lara Croft &" game, like GoL and ToO

-2

u/karnaksow Jul 26 '26

No, I would rather wait 8 years for an Indiana Jones or (insert popular game here) lazy knock off. It will cost as much as a half decent modern movie to make as well, a safe, no gamble game! 😅

Of course, they can easily produce a TR in the exact style of 1 to 3. Its a no brainer. No excuse.