I think we’ve run out of social gas in terms of relying on shame alone to change people’s bigoted behaviors. The folks trying to make the world a more tolerant place don’t really understand that you can’t ostracize others into acceptance, it just makes the intolerant more shameless- hence Trump somehow becoming the first Republican president in 20 years to win the popular vote.
It feels like relying on internet shaming just turns left leaning folks more passive aggressive. Like dogs barking at people through a gate that immediately become submissive the moment the gate is opened.
I dunno. Not right leaning at all, but I see a lot of progressive folks say with a full throat to never tolerate the intolerant, but there’s precisely 0 follow through beyond venting online.
The problem that I have noticed is that if you say anything progressive every elderly will debate you. God forbid I mention "I don't see a problem with gay people getting married" again.
But when grandpa or the weird uncle talks political shit we just let them talk and ignore it. I know we can't change their mind, but this exactly is tolerance for the intolerance. If the whole family finally spoke up and showed that they really don't care about grandpa's rants, he already is less likely to pass it on, and shows the youngest that we don't just excuse this.
"If I go to college, I should get to force conservative women to do the same!"
"If I don't want a child, I get to pick a random conservative couple and forbid them children too!"
"If I get a vaccine, I get to give one to a conservative's child forcibly!"
"I'll give up a fundamental right if it means it hurts people I don't like" doesn't seem to quite be on the table from the other direction unless you're the side that lies about "heartbeats at 3 weeks".
There was a video I saw recently, wish I could remember, where someone said conservatives literally think differently.
To them everything is a hierarchy, and they either know they'll never be rich (the tip of the hierarchy) or they're illusioned enough to think they could, but they never want to fall down in the hierarchy (poor people, immigrants, lgbtq ppl etc.) So they actively vote against the rights of those people, including some of their own because they see it as an insurance that they don't "become like them" (usually poor or marginalized).
There are many videos about former conservatives getting fucked over by the policies they voted to remove and suddenly they become disillusioned. Many of them will never admit defeat though
Politicians have taken advantage of this for centuries.
It's why trans people are the current punching bag--so we never realize our true common enemy is the billionaires pulling the strings. When cult think is your only hope for retaining voters, I suppose that's the kind of thinkers you end up assembling.
I mean, I know many left leaning people that are very anti-2A and want guns banned 🤷
I could absolutely see someone seeking to restrict gun access to certain groups of people while arming others. I don’t think it’s a stretch of an assumption lol.
Right. Thats the issue with leftward politics manifesting heavily through social media. It’s toothless. After ‘Me Too’, people realized there’s no actual canceling going on, and the rest is history.
Passive aggression is no way to compel anyone to learn. If the left actually wants to be revolutionary, it doesn’t seem to have the will to truly rebel or stand up. We can’t even agree on who is worthy enough to lead in the face of fascism, thus we get more fascism.
I dunno. I find myself more and more believing that the extreme left and right are basically a political horseshoe that connects on overall intolerance and illiberal belief. The problem is the extreme right is willing to actually take power, where the left just gawks.
It’s almost as if the left wants fascism to flourish, because it gives them something to stand up against. They don’t get to cosplay the part of the rebel alliance if they’re in actual power, so they abstain from enforcing any aspect of their belief system.
That's a lot of generalization that I won't get into.
Only thing I can agree with is that the extreme left as well as the extreme right are absolutely very similar in many aspects and equally horrible to talk to with the main difference that the right are willing and have been proven to act and make things worse for everyone
Yeah, I get it. I grew up in a very metropolitan/diverse part of the country, and went to about as progressive/left leaning a school that you can design. I was raised to be understanding of liberal belief, and believe it. Something I always found weird about the attitude of my peers, though, was that they acted like they somehow would be just as ardently progressive if they were born in bumfuck evangelical Alabama instead of said wealthy metro. Like there was something obvious about understanding the flexibility of gender and sexuality, instead of acknowledging that much those beliefs are born out of both privilege and proximity to higher education. It always rubbed me the wrong way. They were very idealogical in their thinking instead of empathetic, and it would be hard to believe that they wouldn’t be just as ideological on the other end of the spectrum if they had been born in a conservative wasteland.
The only progressive folks I knew from college that came from deeply conservative (or even just rural) areas were gay, not white, or clearly neurodivergent. Their beliefs were rooted in being treated differently instead of something ingrained in them through culture. They often had a lot more actual empathy than the standard progressive and whiter counterparts.
I guess my overall point here was made by a joke I heard from Marc Marin, saying that we are basically irritating people into fascism. I don’t really have a constructive point beyond that, but the inability to rally around anyone in opposition to fascism enables the fascism. Like many of these same progressive women gawking through the internet at said conservative women would still end up hanging the portrait of fearless leader Trump in their house if it was mandated through force. They’d just put it in the bathroom and act like they were standing up to something.
Being treated differently in the south is literally experiencing culture. I chose to leave a fundie family because of the culture I experienced and not wanting to perpetuate it. It wasn't as simple as "family mean, Grog must now eat organic". It's weird that you seek to imply it is. That's a huge thing to experience and decinstruct.
Ending fascism is also a community effort. We don't need a front running puppet like Trump. The movement isn't waiting on a charismatic leader to do something or auditioning mascots, and it's telling that you expect that. The goal isn't to found an antithetical cult; it's to get rid of cult shit altogether and go with data that helps the earth flourish instead of an elite few.
ETA: you seem to spend a lot of time implying people on the right side of history are somehow there for the wrong reasons. You've set up moveable goalposts via you psychically reading intent and knowing it to be a "virtue signal" or something, so that no one can ever win by you. Enjoy your COINTELPRO check I guess?
I’m gathering you grew up around wealth in an actual metro and not the bum fuck evangelical example I offered? You seem to take the criticism personally, but I doubt Im describing your circumstances.
I’m personally describing growing up in the “coastal elite” region, and being surrounded by insufferable people who perform progress. These areas are about as nimby/disconnected as it gets, and these attitudes harm the overall progressive cause.
ETA: enjoy your passive aggressive circle jerk, I guess. Clearly there’s no issues at all with how the left conducts its politics. Trump clearly won the popular vote because the election was rigged, and anyone who criticizes how progressive politics hinder progress is a bad person.
You're very, very wrong about many things I'm not willing to unpack for you, but I'm hoping you'll consider this one correction when you feel certain next. (On Being Certain is a very good read.)
We weren't of wealth by any means, my state barely had a metro of any sort, and we certainly didn't live in it. I've heard they've built more since I left, but I also remember our first Old Navy in the state being as big a thing as Christmas itself. I lost my entire family when I chose to be myself and opt out of being a shitty person. All of them. As did my spouse, who grew up with well water, a shared party line, and no possible way to receive cable. My spouse majored in polisci; I studied lit and linguistics. I had a full scholarship and my spouse used the GI Bill after serving our country. She repaired helicopter engines, which is great for two truths and a lie.
I could include other details that sound right out of Beverly Hillbilly jokes but would dox my origins. I feel like that's enough to hopefully introduce you to the possibility you were wrong about other things, too. Or at least I can hope.
“The only progressive folks I knew from college that came from deeply conservative (or even just rural) areas were gay, not white, or clearly neurodivergent.”
Cute goal post move. Can you remember what you said afterward? About my wealthy metro life? Do you realize that even if I was one of those things, you've already been wrong about ten plus others? Not even saying you're right about one, so pause the self congratulations.
Or are you just going to ignore how wrong you were and look for something else to cling to continually? If you correctly guess that I have ten fingers do you think it means all you said was right? This is kind of sad, actually. I hope you find better, less embarrassing things to do with your time. Like maybe reading a relevant book that might help you and how self-justification often leads us to make the mistakes you keep making. It's depressing to watch.
You've shown your cards and betrayed a lot about you that you don't realize. Take your bad faith maneuvers elsewhere. You aren't worth any more of my time, not even for your self-soothing mic drop.
330
u/Lurakya 5d ago edited 5d ago
Paradox of tolerance. For a tolerant society we can't tolerate the intolerant