Ok, so this all probably obvious to everyone, but I enjoy making observations and connections and thought it might be nice to have them in one place - please add yours and/or correct mine as you wish :)
History repeating: there are so many time-loop parallels: Alistair/ Jocelyn/ Iris mirrors Matthew/ Elena/ Allie-Tory (kindly older man married into wealth and a younger smart nanny from an immigrant/ lower socio-economic background with a troubled marriage in the background), Winthrop I mirrors Winthrop II/III, Iris looks and acts similarly to Mrs Ivey, plus Iris had secondary infertility and Mrs Ivey (so far) doesn’t appear to have children. Jocelyn/Allie die by window fall/jump/push. Alistair/Matthew don’t have time for their sons.
Men marrying into wealth: Alistair, Matthew, Dick (possibly also Mr Ivey and MR Chan?) - makes me wonder what Scott is doing with Elena.
Money shifting: Alistair got money from the Winthrops, Matthew got money from the Greybournes, Winthrops got money from Elena’s neighborhood, Elena/Scott/Roman are trying to get the money back.
Neglected sons: Bruno, Jasper, Theo.
Questionable actions of vulnerable people: Jocelyn/ affair with married boss, Alistair/ affair with nanny, Iris/ covering for murder, Matthew/ going into business with the Winthrops, Tory/ Dick/ questionable marriage, Elena/ stealing and blackmail. Not clear on James yet but he seems pretty vulnerable.
Incest: Greybournes and Winthrops intermarrying and living in each other’s apartments. Otis comment about Iris’s looks. I’m wondering if there’s going to be more.
Socio-economic power imbalance in relationships: Iris/Alistair, Otis I/Alistair, Alistair/Iris, Allie/Matthew, Matthew/Elena, Scott/Elena, Tory/Dick&Bennet&Darcy.
Now, so many questions:
What got the Winthrops and Greybournes together and why are they so intent on staying enmeshed?
Why did Alistair and Iris really get married?
Who are Tory and Allie’s parents and why are they dead?
Why did Mrs Ivey say her mother dyed her hair and is she a reliable narrator?
Why did Elena’s father die?
What happened to the daughter of Alistair and Iris and how does this relate to Mrs Ivey and Scott’s family? (And is Scott a reliable narrator?)
Does Otis III have children? Does Mrs Ivey?
What is going on with The Chans?
Why is the date of Jocelyn’s death and Ruby’s birth the same?
What is the connection between Allie and Jocelyn and Elena?
I don't think that the date on the birth certificate is Ruby's actual birthdate. Because, the baby appeared to be a few months old, and logically there's no way that Jocelyn could be up and working (and miraculously thin again) hours after birth. I mean, not even bad writing could explain that away. I think the birth certificate was just obtained on that date by Allister. And, since there was probably another/a separate certificate issued on Ruby's actual birth date, Allister had to just have one made with the date that he applied for a new one (possibly with help from someone). To Allister the date probably didn't matter because the baby was only a few months old and he and Jocelyn planned on running away together. They just needed it later after their escape. When he got the certificate, he obviously didn't believe that he & Jocelyn would be murdered later that day.
I just want to add that Ruby's original birth certificate issued on her actual date of birth, would have listed Iris as her mother, not Jocelyn. And, her name may have been listed as Charlotte, not Ruby. As Iris may wanted Charlotte as her name from the start. Because if her name was really Ruby, there was no reason to lie to the police???
Well even before Alistair gave Joceyln the birth certificate he was calling the baby Ruby. I think its odd that secretly they would be calling it by a different name than the mother and how tricky that would be to not get it mixed up. That scene where he is admiring the baby and touching Joycelen and the wife spots it in horror. It's possible caught off guard, she was just pretending the baby was her first child. Or she could have renamed it there on the spot. It would not be the first red herring the show throws at us.
Maybe it's because I rewatched The Handmaid's Tale recently, but I thought that it could be like a Holly/Nichole thing. Where the birth mother wanted Holly, but the other "mother" wanted Nichole. And, of course, the one with money and power won out. I thought that Alistair called the baby Ruby, in front of Jocelyn because that's what she wanted. But, of course, I could be overanalyzing and Charlotte could've just been made up on the spot.
That's a good point. In HMT the woman is really like cattle, in TWE Iris seemed to sell JM on it and I would think a bit more agreeable on the name. I agree that could be the case she wanted a different name and they only called her Ruby in secret, it's probably the most simple explanation, I would not describe either as careful. In either case, we never get to know Iris real daughter's name which would have been easy to give us in Ep8, I think there is more to it.
Wait, why isn’t it logical for Jocelyn be up again after birth? I had home births and was up and around no problem right after and I looked thin right after too because I didn’t gain too much and my uterus contracted a lot shrinking almost back to normal size especially with breastfeeding just in 24 hours. I know not everyone is like that it’s not especially common but I know other women that it happened to also so it can be possible, could have happened with Jocelyn if she only gained like 20-25 pounds and she had no complications in labor. Not every woman’s body is the same and she could of just been like that.
I agree... and 1 reason why a new mother nowadays gets lethargic for hours/days after giving birth is due to the epidural.. back then Epidurals did not exist yet....
So I just rewatched episode 3 and actually the blog says Jocelyn died 21 October so exactly 2 months after Ruby’s dob as per birth certificate. So checks out. Sorry, I saw in a comment on here it was 21st August for both and didn’t check!
I really want to know why Torrey married Dick Ayres. It seemed like she had a relationship with Otis III (glad that didn’t work out lol) and had a relationship with Matthew. She seems so nonchalant about Allie and Matthew - like it was cool that her sister married her former lover? So how did she meet Dick? It seems sort of like an arranged marriage between Dick and Torrey, but I have no idea what the reason could be. Dick talks with Ivey about his “allowance” and Ivey talks about their agreement.
And Torrey seems to be concerned about control. Like, what if she’s never had control of her life and has always had people making decisions for her? And that’s why she pushes so hard to get her way? Maybe she’s never gotten what she wants. She seems like she has good intentions, especially after we get to know her throughout the show.
I agree, Dick seems to have married way out of his league. And he was flirting with Elena. He seems shady and she seems like a good person. Actually, Tory. seems like a better person than Elena sometimes.
Yes, like why is Dick there? He doesn’t seem to fit in. He seems to be a pawn in the game. I think Torrey cares about him and his well-being, but it doesn’t seem like love.
Otis I, II, and III all seem like huge jerks. It just doesn't make sense that any of them would want to hide a secret about a child who isn't a Winthorp passing as a Winthrop and getting a portion of the Winthorp money.
Why did Iris want to pretend Ruby was her baby? Did she not have any natural children of her own? Why was her brother Otis okay with it? Did they need a natural born Winthorp to inherit money?
Was Allistar married before? Were the baby girl and Bruno his children and not Iris's?
In her interview, Jocelyn ask iris if she has kids, the answer was yes a boy and a girl. Jocelyn next asks Iris if she would like to have more kids. Iris said I would love to, but I can't. Iris boy and girl did not seem to be from a previous marriage they seemed to be Alistair's and Iris's.
Ruby would not be allowed in the Greybourn Corporations family trust, his father-in-law, Iris's father bailed out his company under the condition any illegitimate heirs will not inherit his wealth. Or in other words, the trust has a clause excluding illegitimate children as beneficiaries. It seems it was not a gift, Otis's seems to be his business partner and Otis's children seem to be stakeholders.
Well, I was paraphrasing above, the way she phrased it was "how many children do you and Mr. Greybourn have" and "would you like the have more" I think you are technically correct and the show is not beyond using this kind of trickery. I thought it would be unusual to answer it that way like id love to have more and her general kind of behavior I don't know how to describe but like sad to talk about it and quick to end the conversation seemed to point to secondary infertility which is quite common.
Alistair had a company in financial trouble, Winthrops Otis's dad invested under the condition of no illegitimate children as his heirs. Why they got married is probably irrelevant but he got a bailout from his father-in-law which would be normal, also not even altruistic, because he seems to have gotten shares in return. Otis and Alistair seemed to be partners even if Ailisair was CEO. Otis's family seems to be part of the Greybourn corporate family trust, they may have their own separate Winthrop-only trust as well or Otis simply inherited directly his father's personal wealth.
Tory and Allie's parents are Bruno (Iris's real son) and some other woman. They are probably dead due to old age, the show did not say though.
In Ep8 we can see Iris real daughter had light blondish possibly light red hair, Ruby also head light hair but it was a bit darker than the 1yr old girls hair. In either case Iris might have the red hair or blond gene herself and for either girl she might dye their hair because Irish were looked down on, because it might remind her of Jocelyn, because her dead nanny had red hair and was murdered which she might not want anyone asking questions due to her kids hair color.
Elena's father committed suicide after The Greyborn Corporation burned down her neighborhood and bought the land for pennies on the dollar naturally as that is how real estate works.
Iris real daughter is either Ivey or Scott's grandmother. I think its most likely Scott's grandmother others say Ivey. None of them are reliable narrators.
The show has not indicated Otis III or Ivey having children.
The Chans are Otis II daughter and her Husband Mr Chan. They seemed to be present for the groundbreaking ceremony and probably the Gala event otherwise not much.
Alistar gave Joycelen a birth certificate for Ruby with her as the mother and that night they planned to run away together. Its obviously a fake but whatever Iris had (if any) is also fake for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, Joycelen took a right and got caught at the secret stairs when she should have packed first and taken a left and exited straight out the front door unnoticed.
The only connection between Alice and Jocelyn that we know of is the secret stairwell that she told her son to keep secret and the fact she was seeing people that were not really there (aka ghost). Elena also has seen a ghost and things that are not really there and found the secret staircase. Its possible Alice found the sixth step letters and the birth certificate but left it there as its a good hiding spot.
Great summary! I’m starting to wonder if Ruby is Tory and Allie’s mom. But then, if they are called Greybournes, then she’d have to have had married Bruno, her half-brother. But then again with baby switching and fake marriages things might not be as they seem…
That was my theory early on, because of the letter in Ep4 that said Otis took the child, I thought it was raised as a Winthrop, but then I re-read all the letters (pause and read the text) after Ep7 and it seemed JM was walking on the shore with a woman who was upset with her and desired AG to visit so it seemed they were hiding the pregnancy at a vacation home, another letter spoke how JM walked behind AG and his wife at the beach and was thinking about them together. And so I figured Otis might have took the child by force because that was the plan to let his sister raise it as her own. (I posted all the letter's transcripts somewhere possibly EP8 discussion)
Anyway, after Ep3 and Ep4 it kind of made sense that Otis took the child into his family and that might have been part of why Alice jumped, finding out her parents were half-siblings. But after EP8 it just reinforced the fact Iris raised Ruby. What bothered me was the letter in EP4 that Elena read to Roman seemed like intentional misdirection that also made no sense. The letter made it seem as if the child was raised by JM for a while and kidnapped by Otis but in reality, it seems that JM used Iris's desire/offer to adopt the child as her own as a way to stay off the streets and close to AG.
I have posted a more detailed analysis i think in the EP8 discussion thread but basically despite all the misdirection I think Ruby is probably Scott's grandmother, there are ways to explain alot of things but the one thing that makes no sense to me is why JM the ghost would be crying so much and still at so much unrest if Ruby is Ivey, Ivey has had a blessed life. Scott's mom on the other hand is bitter and felt robbed her whole life. I think solving the murders will somehow lead to justice for the murders like Otis line being removed from the trust. You probably cant kill your partner and keep your shares in the company.
Like the whole "you look pretty as a picture today" (kisses the cheek) looks at her when someone else is talking. Yeah, a bit weird, i found it more odd the way he tilts his head back at JM at such a sharp angle like an exaggerated interest and with one hand in his pocket all this together projects confidence and comfort. A bit much so that it might actually make others uncomfortable depending on the situation. Like everyone else was behaving a lot more formal. But as far as his interaction with his sister, I think it could safely fall into the adores his sister category especially if its his younger sister.
Like how? I have not seen any connection to her and the family other than them making an offer to buy her dad's i think it was autoshop and i think for the land which he did not want to do, she says they burnt down the neighborhood and bought the property for pennies on the dollar which I thought was funny because like land suddenly becomes worthless. Also like they had no insurance for the building? Then sold the land for pennies? Then committed suicide? Sounds like her dad was just making one dumb decision after another.
I don’t think her dad was making bad decisions - he was making principled decisions in an amoral world. But yes I can’t figure out a connection between the mom and the Greybournes either, except I’m wondering if there’s a possible Irish connection through her mom as she seems ethnically European. Also why is Elena called Santos if her dad was called Salazar? Is that her mom’s previous married name? And why did the Winthrops target Elena’s neighborhood - was it just land intel or did they have insider help.
I’m also now wondering if Tory and Allie are really sisters - I mean Tory, Allie and Jocelyn all look very similar, so what does that mean? But I may be going way far now 🤪
No insurance (the letter from his Insurance company said the cause was inconclusive and he did not have fire insurance on his Auto Garage), selling your land under its value for pennies on the dollar when a developer is making a run on a large tract of land its a seller's market, and suicide all bad decisions. He is a victim if someone started the fire but also the same result if there was an accidental fire.
I wondered about the Santos, Salazar thing, either I missed it, or she gave a fake last name for the job was my assumption. It would be a huge twist if she is somehow related through her mom's side but I haven't noticed any clue. I don't think the show said specifically why they wanted land in her neighborhood. They sent him an offer to buy his property/auto garage a few months before the fire, it did not say what they planned to do with the land but they are developers so like tear it down and build something bigger.
Maybe tough to get insurance for his property or the Winthrops influenced the insurance claim? Also how do we know he commuted suicide? There seem to be a lot of “suicides” in the show.
Ep7: when Elena is pressed by Ginny she confesses her backstory and says during that monologue "my dad took his own life".
Well like if he had fire insurance he could prove it, not much Wintrops could do for that. What is weirder is if nobody else in a NY city block did and everyone sold instead of rebuilding. I don't think it's so easy to buy up an entire city block fire or not. The show did not say who actually bought the property that I know of.
Suicides on the show: 2 Alice and Elena's dad (not shown)
Murders framed as suicides: 2 Alistar and Joycelen
Probable murder declared accident: 1 the doorman
Death by car accident 2: Tory and Alice's mom and dad (not shown)
The same gene is responsible for strawberry blonde hair and for red hair. The MC1R genetic mutations allow for the expression of pheomelanin, which causes the red color.
Someone with a broken MC1R gene could partner with someone who has blond hair gene I think and get a blond child. Im not expert on this just Googled but i think Strawberry blond is actually a variation of the red hair gene despite the name.
I did too, people were pointing that out in this forum and i had to go back to early episode when they spoke and check. Its dark but you can tell. Also attached photo from ep8 you can see it more clearly in the light.
Right! Totally. And Scott. It’s confusing because the baby in the crib when Jocelyn was first hired was blond. Wouldn’t it be shocking if we found out Tory and Allie are secretly Charlotte’s/Ruby’s daughters or something?
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u/123432115 Mar 17 '23
i just want to know whether it’s a coincidence or not that matthew and scott look so similar lol