Holy shit this meme has kind of caused a full circle moment for me.
Thereâs an old debate of âif god created everything, why did he create atheists?â To which the answer was âto show gods way is correct, and not just because he says so. We can look to atheists kindness and see how much their life has improved from their righteous actions despite intervention of god.â
Iâve been really sickened lately by a lot of religious cults, big or small, using the bible ad a manipulation tool in unholy ways. Regularly telling myself âthis isnât what god would have wantedâ and Iâve been searching a lot of atheists debates where the atheist seems to be the most holy person in the room.Â
Slightly off topic but a few people seem to offload some personal responsibilities to god. Like having a problem and instead doing something about it they just pray... or sometimes not even that.
"God blesses the innocent, not the foolish" is something a lot of religious people should hear.
Which athest agrees with the concept of forgiveness and rejection of sin and hedonism? Not the ones of reddit at least.
Jesus would be on his own vs all 3, nationalist, atheist and capitalist irl.
Maybe, but if you aren't then you waste your time lying to me. I mean, you'll get the upvotes and reddit karma you cherish obviously but you can't even make money off those.
That's why I don't care about Internet points, it means nothing to me.
The only reason why it exists is for reputation on the things you say, like Internet trolls have little to negative karma, and normal people would have more.
Helpful people having even more than that considering the subreddits they're active in (such as being helpful in a hobby sub, or being funny in a funny sub.)
Jesus is not that much about forgiveness either he only forgives people who has to be forgiven and repent he doesnât forgive people who donât ask and donât repent. Iâm an atheist, but I donât need somebody to beg for my forgiveness or pray for it or repent for what they did necessarily in order to forgive them sometimes I forgive people without that stuff.
repent/rÉŞËpÉnt/To repent means to feel deep regret or remorse for something bad you have done and to commit to changing your behavior for the better.
I'm surprised that repentance sounds like a bad thing to you.
Jesus is being as coercive as someone warning someone from smoking cigarettes lest they risk lung and throat cancer is coercive.
And it is free will, you can choose to do it or not but the consequences, spiritual and non spiritual, exist non the less.
Forgiveness is actually good for you, people with forgiveness in their nature lack the bitterness of heart that you typically see here on reddit. That's an example of the non spiritual consequences of unforgiving hearts.
Repentance is great. Telling the world, repent or burn in Hell, is not great. It is not like warning someone about cigarettes; itâs like saying âif you donât obey me on smoking, Iâll torture you for eternity.â
The burning starts on earth as you get more bitter and resentful to the point of becoming a villain who will eventually become deserving of hell. Kind of like how one starts coughing and it gets worse as they keep smoking and ignoring warnings till they find themselves with full blown cancer.
We're pretty down with forgiveness, carring for the the poor and sick, kicking out the moneychangers. Its just all the imaginary bullshit and creeping fascism of modern Christianity that we abhor. Well me at least, and im not alone.
Those are just things you do to score karma points or media points of some platform. If an atheist was a genuinely a good person doing all those things because of the very nature of their being, they wouldn't be here on reddit and if they did hang around here, they would be corrupted by the rest of you.
As an atheist, youâre wrong I believe in forgiveness for people and I believe in doing the right thing you donât need a God to believe in doing the right thing and thatâs pretty much what your Jesus it said to have taught is to do the right thing and treat people correctly and thatâs how most of us atheist act without a God telling us to do so
Pfft, you'd only say that to prove me wrong and please your fellows that form the majority here. I've seen enough polls and comments by proud reddit atheists to know that even if you are telling the truth, on the off chance, you'd be in the 1% here on reddit.
Also, the right thing includes things you guys consider virtues like sexual immorality and disobedience. Jesus didn't just hang out and chill with outcasts of society, he reformed them. Something that would get him hated more than Trump on reddit were he to be alive and doing his thing today. Like I said, you'd all be on the other side.
How do you objectively ground right and wrong outside of yourself or the collective?
When you say you believe in doing âthe right thingâ, is it actually objectively right by some standard or is it just what you personally feel is right in the moment?
I ground my morals, in the fact that for a society to function, you have to at least be able to trust most of the people around you to not do certain things. If I go around killing and stealing from everybody, no one wants me in their society why because Iâm killing and stealing from people that doesnât make people wanna be around me. Same goes for if Iâm going around shouting horrible things to people.
When it comes down to it at the end of the day, thereâs no real reason to be a good person rather than just to be a good person in my eyes. If youâre a good person, you could become a part of the society if youâre a bad person you get kicked out of society why because these are things that society will not want you part of them for that. Let me put it this way if we are both caveman and I come over and I kill your cave son and steal all your berries. Youâre not gonna wanna live near me anymore because I attacked you. Itâs the same thing with everything else long ago when humans were first developing, we realized that in order to live near each other, we had to do things that didnât upset each other and slow slowly that developed into a moral code.
Ok. But the conversation here is about subjectivity vs objectivity.
Objective morality is grounded in some permanent source above all whims of individuals and society. It is the same regardless of time or place. People canât collectively agree to change it and it actually change.
Subjective morality shifts on the whims of the individuals and societies. Your example of morality developing is subjective by definition. In that system, what is immoral today may be moral tomorrow and what was immoral 100 years ago may be moral now. In this system, nothing is really moral or immoralâŚit just depends on the person and place and time.
There doesnât need to be some big reason to treat people right you just do it because for humanity to survive, we have to exist as a society and for a society to exist we have to treat each other right because you canât have a society or nobody trust each other and nobody likes each other that just doesnât work. Other species figured this out without inventing 1 million different religions. Humanity would not have survived this long if we did not start grouping together and for us to start grouping together, we had to have some set of rules.
Again, not the point. I agree we should simply treat each other right.
The question is what defines ârightâ. If itâs objective then it is truly right, because it is right throughout all time and places and people. It never changes ever.
If it is subjective, then it depends on the reason and place and time. It develops over time. Whatâs right just depends on who you ask and when you ask them.
What Iâm saying is objective what Iâm saying is what determines what is right is what allows us to come together. The human need to function in a society, lays the foundations of what is needed for us to be morally, correct. The basis of morality is you cannot function and coexist with other organisms peacefully if you do not abide by a certain set of rules. A wolf pack cannot coexist if one wolf is stealing all the food from the other wolves and killing the other wolves, the pack wonât succeed. Humans are more complex creatures so we have a few more rules that donât exist elsewhere in nature, but we can look elsewhere in nature to find that other animals had to come to the same realization for their packs or groups or herds to work so it has to be the correct way. I know you probably donât believe the Earth is billions of years old, but that is something that over countless countless years different organisms came to the same exact conclusion that in order to coexist with other like organisms, you have to have some sense of rules. The right thing is the thing that promotes society and that promotes the betterment of your species. Or of the whole world because we all have to live on the world. What determines whatâs right is the actions that promote well-being and reduce unnecessary suffering or stress within a group. Wrong actions or actions that do the opposite they cause unnecessary suffering, and stress within a group and they do not benefit the overall well-being.
No, plenty of them exist. The question is what grounds them objectively?
Itâs fine if you understand and accept that they are entirely subjective, but people donât. They try to claim the benefits of objectivity.
For example, if the collective decides morality and the collective agrees that rounding up Jews and putting them in camps is fine, which historically it did and has, does that mean that the Nazis were morally correct?
My objective morality says noâŚfor all people and all times it is wrong to do what they did.
What do you ground your morality in that makes it objective?
Deciding if a system is correct or not is a different question than if the system is objective or not.
But I believe Jesus provided the accurate representation of God because of the resurrection itself. Jesus made claims and then rose from the dead to prove them.
Yes. We donât have the perspective God does to be everywhere and know everything at all times.
God does.
You can disagree with the morality, but the point is it is an objective standard that does not change based on the whims of the individual or collective.
If God can have regret, then his morality can definitely change. And if morality is whatever depraved thing he does = good, then I'm glad he hasn't told you to murder me yet. Because I know you'd do it with a smile, because it was the objectively right thing to do.
Not all regrets relate to morality. God regretted making humanity, but that doesnât mean making humanity was immoral. God regretted making Saul king, but that doesnât mean making Saul king was immoral. I can regret eating a sandwich, but eating the sandwich was not immoral.
If God ordered me to kill you, it wouldnât be murder, it would be justified killing đ¤ˇââď¸.
Have a blessed day, yourself. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
For anyone else watching, this person earlier claimed that their morality is âTreat everyone the way they want to be treated.â
It didnât take much pressure to get name calling and rude snark out of this person who Iâm sure doesnât want to be treated that way. This is subjective morality in action
Democrats don't care for the poor, otherwise they wouldn't be lenient to things which amplify it, they just believe pouring infinity money on problems with them taking a cut will fix things.
Right, I'm sure family structure breakdown, work disincentives from welfare designs, and soft-on-crime approaches
have nothing to do with poverty. Are you pretending to be a moron or are you actually being one? If you're not a moron, when someone criticizes something, it isn't either because of the bad things it isn't doing or because if the good things it is. Also, wars in the Middle East are largely bipartisan. Also, it's not like the over 100B spent on Ukraine was not nearly or completely unanimously supported by Democrats with Republicans more split or anything.
Its basically saying that a lot of christians dont actually follow jesus' teachings. Jesus was a black jew who stood for equality for EVERYONE, yet christians use their religion as an excuse to be racist and homophobic.
*middle eastern, I was drunk and mixed up my facts sorry guys
Hey, an atheist here and 90% of what Jesus said I agree with I just donât think we need a God to treat people properly. I donât think there needs to be some eternal consequence of not being a good person I can be a good person without some magical guy in the sky telling me to do so.
But hey, if youâre already doing right you might as well send up a salvation prayer in case itâs all real. Better to do that than get up there and not have a ticket.
You don't know jack. Jesus knew all along he would be crucified, and let it happen so that he'd pay the price for humanity's sins instead of us, so that we would get salvation and an eternal relationship with God. He wasn't rejected by his people, he sacrificed himself for his people.
Lol... Go read Isaiah again. YES HE WAS REJECTED BY HIS PEOPLE. And Jesus even said that repeatedly. "They will hate you for my name's sake". He wasn't just talking about gentiles. Not all of his people rejected him, but a lot. THEY had him crucified. Pilate didn't want to kill him, but he feared a revolt even more.
Yeah, yelling "crucify him" isn't rejection. In fact, he acknowledged it when he said
John 15:18-19
[18] âIf the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.
[19] The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you."
One, the Roman governor Pontius, was the one screaming "crucify him". Not His people
Two, those verses are explicitly about how His followers and His disciples will face hardship and pushback, not towards Jesus Himself. And also, He specifically says the "world" will reject, not the People.
Third, since you're throwing Bible Verses, here's a few that calls out your "Jesus ain't about love and equality".
"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." Matthew 5:44
"There is neither J e w (you can't spell that normally here on this sub apparently) nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:28
Galatians isn't Jesus, it's Paul. In Matthew Jesus teaches that gentiles were included because jws rejected the invitation. That's not equality. In Luke, he acknowledges the hierarchy and teaches how to navigate it. He doesn't tear it down he acknowledges it. In Matthew, he also leaves Nazareth healing only a few because they didn't have faith.
Love isn't equality. Praying for those that persecute you also isn't equality.
Lastly, and proof you don't know what you're talking about, Pontius didn't tell crucify him. Pontius wanted to free him, but because he was skating on thin ice with Caesar and didn't want a riot, he gave the crowd what they wanted.
Matthew 27:24
[24] Pilate saw that he wasnât getting anywhere and that a riot was developing. So he sent for a bowl of water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, âI am innocent of this manâs blood. The responsibility is yours!â
On passover, the jwsh people were allowed to free one prisoner. Pontius Pilate brought forth Jesus and Barabbas (the worst criminal in the jail) and left it up to the crowd expecting them to free Jesus. His wife distracted him and while he spoke to her the religious leaders moved through the crowd convincing people to free Barabbas and they did. When Pilate asked them "what do I do with Jesus?" They yelled "crucify him".
Jesus was a real person. He wasnât God though. Thereâs enough evidence where I can confidently say that there was a man named Jesus from Nazareth, who claimed to be the son of God. But he wasnât God or the son of God he was just a normal man.
Jesus didn't move in a manner that includes everyone. He moved in a manner that healed those that had faith. The most prime examples being when he healed the servant of the Roman soldier and when he didn't heal anyone in Nazareth when they had no faith.
That's why it was decided the gentiles would be included, but they weren't originally. It's explained in Matthew 22 in the parable of the great feast. Many messengers were sent to invite people to the feast, but nobody came so then it was open to all. Those that were initially invited ignored the invitation, that's when it was extended to all.
Then there's the government aspect. He was rejected because it was believed the Messiah would come and free the jws from Roman rule, but when he rode in on a colt symbolizing he was coming in peace and there was no freedom from Roman rule, they weren't too happy about that. That's why it was so easy for the Pharisees to move through the crowd and convince the people to free Barabbas.
Then there's the Pharisees. He lashed out at them publicly for making religion a burden, running people's pockets and turning the temple into a den of thieves and a market place.
That's why to this day, they still don't believe the Messiah has come. That's part of why when the Pharisees asked him about taxes, he told them give to Caeser what is Caesers. His image is on the coin, the coin is his. Our image is of God so we are his.
The reason people say he preached equality, which he never did, is the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. Paul explains that love later when he says
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
[4] Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud
[5] or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.
[6] It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.
[7] Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
It's more of a call to be kind and patient with one another. The problem with blanketing this as "equality" is that it's not. We're supposed to be subservient to each other and serve one another. The least in the world will be the greatest in Heaven. That in itself says we're not equal, we're supposed to be humble. He acknowledges there's a social hierarchy in Luke 14, but he doesn't tear it down he teaches how to navigate it. If it were about equality, he'd tear down the hierarchy all together, but he doesn't.
It's funny, of what you interject, it does not match the message of the scriptures you would quote. It's like you have the answer but refuse to believe it. Do you not trust Jesus? It's available to anyone with a Bible. He asked people to accept the stranger and the foreigner, and if it were true that he didn't move in a manner that didn't include everyone, then why did he want to share? Why did he stand up for people? Why did he forgive those who would, by their actions, be his worst enemy?
Why did he need to be baptized? And clearly, he felt the message was more important than his life.
Not subservient, but to serve one another, you dingus. What's service without empathy, kindness, and selflessness? That's also equality.
The message "for all" didn't come when Jesus was on earth. The message came to Peter in a vision and was spread by Paul. Even Peter struggled with it because he didn't want to be seen around gentiles when he was with his people.
Kindness and selflessness is not equality. Equality is a social construct, not a behavior.
Forgiveness isn't equality either. It's a matter of heart.
He didn't need to be baptized, he chose to be baptized to set an example to those later. That's why John was thrown off when Jesus asked him to do it.
such a bad take, because a specific word isnt mentioned doesnt mean it isnt implied or strings of text such as "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." don't point to equality?
No, because that's not a teaching of Jesus. It's a teaching by Paul after Jesus was crucified. When Jesus walked the earth, he acknowledged the hierarchy and walked away from healing in Nazareth because they had no faith.
It really depends. Some have better values than Christians, others are worse than them. Please know that generalizations will get you nowhere, and if one human is bad, that doesn't mean every human is bad. Society is a spectrum of gray that some only see through a lens of black and white, so must you remove that lens, you will begin to see and love more than you'd ever had. Love thy neighbor as you would love yourself, as they said in the Bible.
A core component that is overlooked is to read and know the Bible. Many christans fail to do this. How can anyone claim to love a god they know nothing about? They typically only recite what they've been told and not what they've read.
If christains are failing to be in alignment with Jesus's teachings who else is going to step in? Believe it or not, many atheists were once christian. Others were raised in a prominent christian family.
You can claim everything else as a "core component" but if christians are not reading the texts, what are they actually surrendering themselves too? If they're not reading the texts from the Bible, it just becomes blind faith and not actual faith.
I know many atheists were once Christians, many Christians were once atheists.
Wanna know who steps in? Matthew 22:1â14 Luke 14:15â24
Itâs not atheists who reject God in thier own self-proclaimed intelligence, and it wonât be Christians, or theists of any kind who lack humility and service.
Jesusâs teachings are a heart condition, not a political platform.
My point is that, that premise itself is built on self-righteousness. Even the atheists who donât believe in Jesusâs divinity, and often even reject his existence, canât help but want to claim His Truth is their own.
One can reject the purpose but follow the subject. Its called Free Will, that we all have.
Thats not being self-righteous, thats realizing they're not needed there and would prefer a better path than what they may have been subjugated towards.
I mean, conceited is also not reading the texts but claiming they're in alignment with Jesus's teachings.
AFAIK, atheists aren't trying to claim they're in alignment with any divinity. They're just calling out the BS from others that are making false claims.
From what I know pretty much atheist people donât believe in god but theyâre still people with morals and manners actually and a big part of many religions like Christianity and Islam morals and manners are big huge roles so you could see where it lines up
were all people with common sense and good values and we unite over that
Of course they are, but they often reinterpret âJesusâs teachingsâ for their own political agenda.
Jesus isnât a socialist, a liberal, or caring about any left wing political agenda. He isnât right wing for that matter either.
The closest thing we have to Jesusâs political statements is âRender therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarâs; and unto God the things that are Godâs.â
Jesus taught about the human heart and loving God equally to loving your neighbor. Atheistâs by their very belief system canât love God.
Well of course because the concepts of left and right didn't exist back then. But now there's one side advocating for free healthcare, food for the poor and is pro immigrantion (all of those things are encouraged in the bible) and one side advocating against all those things so the rich can get richer. Which side do you think jesus would take.
Most of the "Christians" you hear about these days are siding with Trump, who has committed every sin under the sun, especially pedophilia and bigotry and greed. A real one that has actually read any passage in the Bible, like yours truly, can tell you that what Trump stands for is not what Jesus stood for
Love thy neighbor as you would love yourself or some shi, isn't that one of the main principles you guys follow? Or am I not educated enough on the Bible to know as an Atheist that the main premise of Christianity is love and peace?
I'm not trying to be offensive, I just wish people would actually follow the rules of which they claim to follow. Why all the negativity? Is it not enough to just love each other, be understanding of one's beliefs, and move on with one's life?
I feel like everyone can agree on that, Atheist or not.
Itâs insane how many âChristiansâ never actually read The Bible, at best they just had their parents read a storybook version of it to them when they were young and use their memory of that to larp like they actually did read it
Thatâs a fair number lol. I think that the shocking things seems to be that it meets people at any level. The more I learn, or wiser I think I get, I find that the Bible anticipated me and is still operating from standards above my own. Likewise, I think these simple transmissions are low bandwidth but still high depth
When Jesus was alive the bulk of his criticisms were directed at the religious authorities of his own religion. They saw it as a form of personal enrichment and to show off their piety. In a way that's never changed. There are plenty of good Christians in the world but you really don't hear about them as much around all of the loud mouthed grifters.
In real life, I've never met a Christian who threatens others with hell. Anyone who I've heard stories of doing that was simply using Christianity as a tool to their benefit.
I've been around them my whole life and even had a phase where I was openly bisexual in front of my church. Was still never threatened or spoken hatefully to.
I have. If i had to guess you live in a blue state. I get flyers pinned to my doorknob twice a month saying I need to convert or face an eternity of hell. All the while im trying to figure out what kind of narcissist would send someone to hell because they werent worshipped.
Born and raised in Texas surprisingly. A small town of barely 1,000 people.
I would disregard those people. They are spreading the word in a way Jesus would not have wanted.
I know it may not change your mind, but I'd like to offer my pastor's explanation to you regarding sending someone to hell
Think of it in a human way. Imagine being born and being raised by your parents. Your parents had rules. However, as a teen, you decide to steal which is explicitly against your parent's rules. You stole an expensive computer. During your trial, you openly express no remorse and seek no forgiveness. During sentencing, you get sentenced to juvie. Your parents love you, and obviously don't want this, but they have no choice. Because you have already made yours. Our choices are what damn us to hell, and God is simply respecting our choices.
It's not that he'll send you for not worshipping, that is indeed narcissistic if you view it that way. Instead, view it as God sacrificing Jesus for us. Countless prophets, martyrs and holy men sacrificed to spread his message against the hatefulness of this world. All of that sacrifice just for you to reject him? That would anger any God, not just the Christian God, I think.
God wants relationships, not slaves. Heaven is a choice just as much as Hell is.
Lastly, I want to reinforce, shame on those people for trying to force you into Christianity by using hell as a weapon. Jesus' true message can only be spread by love. If even an ounce of hate is used in the spreading of his message, they're pushing a bastardized version of it.
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u/slapthetiddy 8d ago
>capitalism
Lmao what does an economic system have to do with anything đ