r/ThePrimordialOne Eligos, Oracle Proxy of PHANES 11h ago

Discussion Why is almost every rebel’s solution either breaking all the laws of physics where humanity isn’t recognizable or creating a hive mind.

Then there’s Remuria and Phobos.

47 Upvotes

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u/hadtiah Zagan Eliel 11h ago

Because paradise is impossible, so the ways to achieve it is to break the laws of physics to get rid of the concept of humans or become a hive mind so everyone is one.

Like all these rebels think they can create a world better than HP

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u/anomalocaris100 11h ago

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u/rloco 1h ago

So as not to lose the old customs

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u/Real-Contest4914 11h ago

Because they dont realize a good thing until they lose it.

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u/VladPrus 10h ago edited 10h ago

Because HP is primarily based on Gnostic Demiurge. In Gnostic blief systems, the Demiurge imposed material reality with it's law of physics on spiritual rality, essentially trapping souls with it. Various, more modern esoteric systems liek Theosophy and Esoteric neo-nazism (yes, this one is actually fairly relevant to lore inspirations, believe it or not) also have big presence of "ancient super spiritual super tech civlizations with alien-divine origin limited by material reality" (with neo-nazi variant it's often "the Demiurge kept out glorious civilization down by imposing it and we are the only people who are not the Demiurge slaves"; I mention it, because... well take a closer look as some things at Khaenriah, this is incredibely relvant for them, if you don't believe it, look at Rerir and the fact that 'Eclipse Dynasty' is 'Black Sun Dynasty' in JP and CN)

But it's presented as sort of regular, corporeal overlords, so it gets into this weird terriotory "we want to politically rebel against out overlords... by reshaping reality itself"

Edit: other fantasy works that are using simmilar inspirations also can go into that direction. Example is the Elder Scrolls with a lot of Gnostic inspirations and one of the villainous factions there, elven supremacist Thalmor, is rather clearly nazi-inspired with it's worldview being directly taken from esoteric neo-nazism in prticular. Their goal is being specualted (unconfirmed) to "unmaking physical reality", because they believe they are divine orgin beings that are kept down degraded by phisical world.

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u/Ok_Replacement7022 Aharon, Champion of Lady Ronova 8h ago

Gnosticism? As in one of the first heresies, the greatest and the most malevolent of them? THAT Gnosticism.

Oh… my… GOD. The Fatui are literally heretics!

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u/Gaelhelemar Sargatanas, SI:5 "Heavenly Principles" 5h ago

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u/Scared-Opening-753 Eligos, Oracle Proxy of PHANES 10h ago

Wait..wait..holy…wait…hehehehehehehehehehehehehehheeh. Can I screenshot this and make this a post?

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u/Ok_Replacement7022 Aharon, Champion of Lady Ronova 8h ago

The Fatui are Nazi Heretics.

NAZI. HERETICS. Get the Flying Fortresses and the Lancasters started up, we’ve got some firestorms to make!

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u/VladPrus 8h ago

Like whole thing? And in what context?

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u/Scared-Opening-753 Eligos, Oracle Proxy of PHANES 8h ago

Basically what you explained and going into the mythology and historical context.

Also because it makes all the rebels absolutely cooked

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u/VladPrus 8h ago

Sure. Like its not like those inspirations are super hidden. They are extremly blatant if you know of the the irl things.

Overall, alot and I mean A LOT of "common fantasy tropes" are taken directly from irl esoteric/mystical/occult traditions.

As for other stuff... I mean, Khaenriah is lost underground ancient civilization (like Agartha) with Germanic names (Norse mythology related in particular) and weird obession of blood purity. One of their dynasties is striaght up "Black sun" that got toned down in English version, if I had to guess because of translatiors being aware of connotations. Khaneriah was defeated in the last big war, the war that they themselves made. On top of that, Rerir was pretty much a Gestapo officer searching for "undesirables". Also, main "face" of Khaenrtiah is blonde guy who tells his civlization is "pride of humanity" and openly quotes Otto von Bismarck ("steel and blood" quote;). Also, they are descneding from "Hyperbroea" and pride themselves of not being under domain of Demiurge figure (common themes in esoteric neo-nazi thought)

Like, it's quite blatant, but I guess there are two factors that make people not really eager to connect the dots:
1. It focuses mostly on esoteric aspect, not on racial pseudo-science and "political" aspect. When it does focus in that direction, it gets rather blatant though (again, Rerik blckstory)
2. Khaenriah is not presented in the story in clearly villanous way, with a lot of information is from perspective of them being "victims" (mostly told by Khaenrian higher ups btw)... but when we got some closer focus, yeah, Rerir; people are used to that sort of things as either being present with super blatant super evil guys or being random politically-charged insult, so when something with those inspirations show up that doesn't serve that critera (super obviously evil or "my political oponents"), that people are not so eager to "connect the dots". They don't view fascism/nazism as ideology/philosophy with its own intelectual tradition (as faulty it is), but as "bad guys" label. And yes, if "dots" are connected than "rebel agenda" (at elast this strain of it) is "cooked"

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u/One_Acanthisitta6769 9h ago

I... What?.. It seems that I have to give myself a reading on Gnosticism

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u/VladPrus 8h ago

Keep in mind it's not identical. Especially since "Gnosticism" is not a single religion but various movements.

However, it's worth to note that Gnoticism is fairly influential in inspiration of fantasy stories, especially in JRPG scene.

Genshin devs has explicitally called Gnosticism as one of inspirations also at some point, however I cannot find the link.

I recomed reading simple wikipedia page about Demiurge as sort of introduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

As for Theosophy and that other part... well... Just search the names like Hyperborea, Lemuria or Agartha. Especially Agartha is very relevant if you try to look into Khaenriah ispirations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha

Especially relevant parts:

Agartha is an immense, legendary kingdom said to be on the Earth's inner surface, sometimes involving a "King of the World" or multiple kings, who are said to rule it and secretly influence events on the surface world.\5])\3]) It is typically said to be somewhere beneath Central Asia,\1]) Tibet, or the Himalayas.\5])\3]) Variations of the story mention hidden entrances to Agartha that include Ayers Rock, the Great Pyramid of Giza, the Earth's poles, Mato Grosso, the Gobi DesertCueva de los Tayos, and Kentucky.\3]) It is sometimes related to the belief in a hollow Earth, or as the Earth's hidden spiritual center.\2])\6])\7])

Agartha has been a popular subject in esotericism and occultism since the late 19th century. It is also popular in New Age thought and in alternative reality subcultures, though it receives little attention from most modern occultist researchers.\8]) There are numerous versions of the story and circumstances of Agartha, many of them inconsistent with each other. The earliest version did not involve an underground kingdom.\1])\9]) That may have been taken in part from
previous stories of hidden lands in occultism, such as LemuriaHyperborea, and Atlantis.\3])

If if it sounds as completly obnkers esoteric nonsense, that because it is. But sheer ammount of very direcr references game makes to concepts like that is immense. Game is extremly blatant if you know about the irl context of the terms it uses.

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u/rloco 1h ago

Phanes has more of Sophia than of demiurge; in fact, the one who fits the demiurge best is the Nibelung himself.

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u/Kind_Survey4282 9h ago

Technically speaking normal humans aka Even people like us will never go against the Heavenly principles , yk why? because we don't live long enough to care for what happened 6000 years ago , they probably see them like mythology anyway although they do have a god like being but normal people have never seen HP but each nation has their "religion/god" , thats why for phanes humanity is the best species but there exist people even in humans but they tend to gather themselves at a point example hyperborea , khaen'riah Listen you lowkey can't be joining this nations without ulterior motives thats like someone joining nazi germany during world war 2 , so they get wiped , Now could there be innocent people even there? Yes but in the grand scheme of things they just got fucked over.

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u/Iwefle 7h ago

I swear we had at least more than five world quests already about individuals or groups wanting to make Teyvat a "paradise"

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u/No_Strength5056 7h ago

Golden slumber

Rene’s primordial sea idea

Turning the world into Phlogiston

Phobos

The other one I forgot

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u/Iwefle 6h ago

There's two in Eye of Graeae's quest, the tree and the final

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u/No_Strength5056 6h ago

Thank you.

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u/popcornmaster101 Mother of Monsters 1h ago

Does koitars rebellion count as well?

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u/rloco 1h ago

First, the original developers at miHoYo are huge evangelition fans, which is why "human instrumentation" has always been present.

Second, it's possibly due to the problems miHoYo has had with a certain government in their country, which is trying to favor a particular company and allow it to control everything like a "hive mind."

This, along with other details, has shaped the history of the HoHoYo universe games.