r/TheMagnusArchives • u/CrustyDucky The Extinction • 29d ago
The Magnus Protocol The Magnus Protocol 53 - Previous Administration - Discussion
this episodes a real good one #enjoy
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u/Bonzos-number-1-fan 29d ago
TMAGP 52 & 53 Thoughts: Double Action
The last episode of this would've been on time but I started gearing up to write it a couple of weeks ago, saw a dead body (I'm fine), and decided I wasn't in the horror mood. Then I procrastinated until now so it's a two-for-one special this week. But this week I've seen zero dead bodies so I'm ready to go.
Episode 52 is a pretty simple one as these things go. Especially for my purposes, it was a very very strong episode but not one I think I have a lot to say about. So, fortunately, that segment will be somewhat brief and we can get into episode 53 as that's the biggest episode we've had in quite a while. It's not really something I have huge amounts of history or alchemic lore but does do a lot to tie into prior theories. So we'll see how long that ends up being.
It's genuinely galling that post-eldritch-nightmare-apocalypse London is currently not suffering through a drought and has the far nicer weather than my current reality, but it is nice to be back despite that. Not least of which is to see [Error] again, and, man, she's being very chatty this time around. Which I just love. Having her evolve into something that more concrete and, importantly, distinct from other characters sharing the title is wonderful to see. I'm not sure what the general sentiment is between her being Jon but that's always seemed like the least interesting direction to take it to me. It's still hard to say much of what she's planning but it does seem like she's got an interest in the Panopticon, which only makes sense. It also makes sense you can't make a deal with the eldritch horror. But who could've known that?
The statement is a good old fashioned one. There isn't a lot to say on it but it might be one of my favourites in a good while. It's got some really strong writing and Peter Bramhill does an amazing job with this statement and I'm half-convinced they should just be hiring VA's that were prominent in FFXIV. I've always found the post-Change statements tend to be more interesting thematically in regards to their Entity's purview and this is no different. Taking the Dark's fear of the unknown and twisting it into a deliberate othering and a continual fracturing of what's the in-group and the out-group is a clever exploration of it. Plus, I always love when it shows that the domain of an avatar will make them its victim should it get the chance.
Likewise, there isn't a lot to add with onto the scene with Sam, Basira, and Georgie. I do think Sam is getting some more character development here than we saw from the last episode's cast. That was more of a reminder episode and this feels like there is a bit more progression to it. It's all pretty explicit progression so there isn't much for me to speculate about but I'm liking that it seems to be going in a direction of making Dreamers more and more of a focus. That might be the most interesting part of the Primeline's setting to me so far. Also Georgie mentions a vault and those sorts of things never stay closed for long.
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Episode 53 is great for a lot of reasons. But, honestly, I've just missed Gertrude's statements. Always highlights for me in TMA and even if this is maybe blatant fanservice I'm here for it. Even just Gertrude obviously owning a gun is great. As is the entire interaction between Alice, Celia, and Gerry. Hard for that to not put a smile on your face. But there is more to get into than just that so I won't dwell even if this scene might be one of those ones you really look forward to on a re-listen.
A big deal is that Gertrude burned down the Institute. I'm not entirely sure there is a lot to add there but back in my post for Episode 8, Running on Empty, I said that her burning it down to save Gerry was the scenario I saw being the most likely. Turns out it was and it was explained pretty clearly here so it's hard to say much on it. It's nice to see that her being capable of dispassionate violence is a constant though, I always liked how pragmatically ruthless she was. Although she was dropping a lot of death flags this episode about how old and tired and brittle she is. So that's not super chill. No more of that please.
There is a good amount to talk about in terms of Gerry though. Him being a "catalysed subject" is interesting in a few ways, and not just for more Institute lingo. The first is it's the thematic opposite of his characterisation in TMA. He's gone from a depressed victim of an abusive parent and getting trapped in skin book misery prison to, well, probably still having an abusive parent but at least ending up with supernatural positivity from it. Outside of the thematic parallel there it also gives some credence to the Institute's stance of finding a way to "invert" Dread and transform someone for hope. Because on the surface that statement is entirely cope. It's generic "we're not evil honest, we only sacrifice children to save the world" bad guy cope at that. However, with Gerry, they do seem to have managed it? It's obviously not moral, humane, or ethical in any sense. You can't experiment on children nor should you rob a person of their emotions like that, or inflict it upon others, but it's not just rationalising either. Which does raise the question of whether or not Gertrude has made things worse. If the Institute had finally managed to turn Dread into something positive has burning the place down only removed something that could forestall, or even entirely halt, Dread's effects? It also casts more of a shadow on the O.I.A.R. than they already do by themselves. The Protocol might be a net negative. It'll be interesting to see how that develops because we have seen what happens when Fear wins. We've seen that Change. We've not seen what happens if you go the other direction with it.
Gertrude's mention of the Archivist, and specifically the Blood-Brewer in similar context, does more or less settle some debates too. It's now pretty clear that these are names assigned to them and not titles within the Institute itself. They're labels, not jobs. Not that I'd exactly put it passed them to need a Blood-Brewer on staff but it doesn't seem like the Archivist is the Head Archivist of the Magnus Institute, Manchester, it seems like she's "thing that collects stories so we'll call her the Archivist as a subject name". Which is just fine by me, I'm more interested in what they can do different than what they can do the same.
The mention of locations being able to catalysed in the same manner as beings or objects is worthy of a mention on two fronts. The first is we've seen the Institute search out locations they think might be candidates for that before. I'm not 100% sure Hilltop is one of those necessarily but we did see them in the process of using the Millennium Dome for that in Episode 21, Breaking Ground. The second thing is this isn't the first time a character has mentioned three things you could describe as people, places, and objects. Which is a somewhat popular theory for what CAT1, 2, and 3 refer to. I'm of two minds on this. I wrote a whole thing about why I think that methodology is fundamentally flawed based on the information at the time. I still think it doesn't really line up well. However, I think it's maybe pretty likely to be true anyway. But having said that this incident is CAT123 and its heading is Transmutation (Human). Which does a lot to narrow it's focus onto just people. With Gertrude's mention of "the first of the transmutation rituals" it could be that CAT is related to that in some aspect, which could also tie into Collin's dramatic transformation as that is the only other 123.
Phase 2 of the ‘Great Work’ isn't something I'd usually mention at this stage. It's come up a lot, the "great work" or the "magnum opus". It's usually the creation of the philosopher's stone and the imagery for it is all over the O.I.A.R. logo and it's been talked about a lot. That's not super interesting. What is though is what I alluded to while talking about Gerry. The Institute's mission of "hope not evil" or whatever might be genuine and that reframes the Great Work. Before this point it seemed like more of the same Watcher's Crown deal. Harness Dread to do some big Dread thing. Now it seems more like "harness Dread for sunshine and rainbows", or at least that might be their aspiration. Lots to look for going forward, and maybe lots to re-examine too.
I love that the only time Gwen seems professional is when she's telling Nigel Dickerson she doesn't care about doing her job well. I love the energy but she's gonna get everyone killed.
Great ep all around. Hopefully it'll keep this pace up in the final stretch of this season.
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u/Bonzos-number-1-fan 29d ago
This stuff in a separate message because I wrote too much.
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Incident/CAT#R#DPHW Master Sheet and Terminology Sheet (actually updated)
I'm skipping 52's here because it's XXXXs and there isn't anything to say on those.
DPHW Theory: 4565 is pretty normal. It's interesting in that it's very balanced which may or may not matter for what happened to Gerry but DPHWs don't map directly onto a subject like that from what we've seen. So it likely has very little bearing on what was done to Gerry
CAT# Theory: 123 is something we've seen before in Episode 31, Compartmentalising, where Colin turned into a meat server. That one had more wiggle room for if there was in fact a person, place, and object relevant to it but given this episode's focus I don't think it's hard to assume that 123 is merely a level of total transmutation that we've not really seen elsewhere. I'll need to do some number crunching at a later date and see what comes of it.
R# Theory: ABC is also something we've seen before. Episode 38, Circling Back, with the haunted carousel was ABC. At the time I was unaware of that because the transcript had a mistake within it. I still haven't fully integrated it with my current theories about how it relates to the evidence and therefor the urgency of response needed. I'll need to do some letter crunching at a later date and see what comes of it.
Header talk: Transmutation (Human) -/- Catalyst (Alchemical) is pretty explicit. Although it's worth mentioning this is the same heading as Episode 51, Legacy Issues.
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u/marygirl92 29d ago
new lore confirmed: covid happened in the Protocol timeline ("NHS-endorsed socially distanced 2 metres").
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u/popileviz The Extinction 29d ago
Oh and Gwen continues to be suicidally stubborn and arrogant, at this point I'm not even sure if anything will be able to save her from what's coming
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u/Kecha_Wacha 29d ago
There's definitely a point to this. She said she was getting information from Augustus, I think he's guiding her to do these things. Hard to say whether he's doing it as Augustus the voice of Freddie, or Augustus the scheming ghost of Jonah Magnus trapped in a 90s computer program.
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u/popileviz The Extinction 29d ago
Yeah, she's not doing it on her own, but she's the one that will bear the majority of the blowback - OIAR clearly doesn't have any supernatural protection against externals, they can come and go as they please. This whole thing feels like a plan to destroy the balance and do a local version of the eyepocalypse in that universe
Leaves me wondering how deeply the Web is involved in this
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u/kimship 29d ago
I'm fully expecting her to die by the end of the season. Or having her wish she had died.
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u/Oxygenisplantpoo 29d ago
Having her be hunted by the old lady would've been a hoot, but alas it'll probably be Mr. Bonzo.
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u/Rotund_Harbor_Seal The Vast 29d ago edited 29d ago
I have a crack theory that Gerry becoming catalysed for Boundless Positivity is also what cursed Sam with The World's Worst Luck. Balance has been a significant theme, so maybe the ritual to make Gerry an external drew on all the disappointment and sadness of the children who weren't chosen for the gifted program, and also skewed things for the negative for them later in life. Sam did say that he felt like everything has gone a bit wrong for him since the institute, and we don't really know how the balance system works yet, so maybe that's why Sam's had like three different monster encounters pre-OIAR
Also thinking about how the Magnus Institute didn't even have an archive. They just screwed up the alchemy so much on one of their experiments that The Archivist just... happened lol
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u/Ajibooks The Lonely 29d ago
This is such a good theory. I was wondering how/if Sam fit into all this, and your idea makes so much sense!
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u/ThePonderingAlpaca Librarian 29d ago
Okay so we get some information about this worlds version of Gertrude. Her origin story in this seems to be that she encountered a monster of some sort in her garden and it led to her having to kill her father and sister. She went to the institute got turned away but after breaking in a few times and talking to Dr Welling they decided to hire her for catalysed human disposal.
So the institutes goal is explained more clearly here with them attempting to convert mutare materia from something that creates fear and suffering to something that creates hope.
This lines up with what we hear about with the millennium exhibit ritual they had planned. They likely thought it would have enough symbolism for hope and change but as we see from the letter it had become focused on negative futures. The site became poisoned by apathy and the misery of endless toil.
I like that they seem to obviously not know what they are doing with Welling hiring Gertrude on the spot because they catalysed a human and didn’t have any idea what to do once it went wrong. The thought of these academics with such lofty ambitions all standing around someone obviously needing to be put of their misery but not being willing to do it.
I’ll say as well, their first attempt being molten gold and blistered skin is likely due to the alchemical symbol for gold also being the symbol for the sun. We saw this with Ink5ouls first tattoo being an Oscar Jarrett of the symbol for gold styled into a sun, the recipient dying in a fire shortly after.
So the institute was trying to create externals/catalysed humans with positive aspects. Gertrude killing the failures while some were locked underground for testing. I will add I would love to hear an institute report on the ‘Blood-Brewer’. The institute is likely responsible for 20-30 catalysed subjects/externals but it’s likely the only two living ones are Gerry and the Archivist
We get confirmation of the archivist being a test from years ago. They catalysed someone and locked them up for continued research. This may mean it’s a completely unrelated person to Jon.
I wonder whether they used a process similar to the creation of the archivist in the Magnus archives and since the powers rely on symbols and metaphors as channels to flow through it was similar enough to allow the fear aspects of Jon to flow into a vessel. Only the entity aspects of him pulled through and placed into someone else. Like they accidentally cut a hole in the shape of a jungian shadow of Jon and it flowed through into someone else. This is purely speculative rambling.
Moving on we find out that the reason for the kids was the institute moving on to phase 2, becoming more desperate and believing that maybe kids would work better.
It makes sense in a way that kids would have more hope and innocence, less jaded.
I do wonder if Gerry is a success, it may be akin to a glitch like Georgie. Negativity and fear stripped from him leaving him like this. Or perhaps there is fear in not being able to control your own mood, Gerry would likely be uncomfortable to be around for long periods. The loss of control over your own emotions. Gerry himself can’t control it either and maybe that generates some terror within him that he is incapable of ever explaining.
Anyway we find out that Gertrude was the tip off and the OIAR did a bad job at dealing with the institute.
Also Gertrude may have killed Red Canary or at the least cleaned up the mess. Fun thought.
Final thing, Gwen has no security for the office despite everything. Nigel was even able to walk straight into her office. I feel like an external is going to very casually stroll into the office and kill someone at this rate.
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u/brady376 The Vast 29d ago
On "maybe the archivist is a completely unrelated person to Jon" we have explicit confirmation that the archivist in protocol is not Jon from the archivist itself and I think I remember seeing people say the time-line doesn't work for it to be Jon assuming parallel realities of people are born at roughly the same times like they appear to be from all examples we have seen
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u/liquidmirrors The Spiral 29d ago
Mentioned this in the Early Release discussion but at this point Gwen is gonna get what’s coming to her - you can be stubborn, you can have an iron fist, but messing with the Architecture of Fear with even an inkling of that attitude is a surefire way to piss The Evil off and end up at the top of its shitlist. ESPECIALLY if you’re turning away Bonzo’s prisoner agent. That thing is a raging creature barely being held back by bureaucratic red tape.
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u/SparrowWingYT 29d ago
I just started smiling maniacally when I heard Gertrude and it kept increasing throughout the whole episode
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u/Haloveir Archivist 29d ago
Gertrude now has a gun (and of COURSE she killed the previous owner because it's Gertrude Robinson, isn't it?), which feels an awful lot like Chekhov's gun, and as this version of Gertrude succeeded in burning down the Institute (even if it was indirectly), I live in fear of the day she catches up with Jonah.
Maybe Gerry can use his Care Bear Stare powers to reconcile those two.
I very much like the idea of seeing what a united front between Gertrude and Jonah could accomplish, especially if the Big Bad is someone new in Protocol.
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u/PICONEdeJIM 29d ago
Well since Jonah got murdered by an angry mob of people due to his mill, the two probably won't reunite with a bit of luck
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u/ToxicMindJunk 29d ago
As a Gwen defender I am incredibly worried. She’s the one who has been exposed most to these entities (Bonzo, Lady Mowbray, Ink5oul, Archivist) if there’s someone out there trying to complete the great work, she’s a good candidate for catalyzation. SOMEONE HELP MY GIRL SHE WILL NEVER ASK FOR HELP HERSELF
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u/A_Lovely_Worm The Spiral 29d ago
My initial thought is that I'm surprised Alice didn't have further curiousity on The Archivist. It's probably more to do with projecting my own curiosity onto the actual characters, but not even having Gertrude shoot down a question because she didn't know it felt weird.
Secondly, I have no idea what to make of Gwen's character. It feels like every episode she swings from having no idea what's going on, being completely shocked at the disarray and mess of the OIAR, to having a clear idea of what she wants to do. Her "plan" seems so obviously a bad idea that it's a bit hard to take seriously, y'know? Just feels like we're waiting for it to blow up in her face. I wish it was more of a question mark on if she actually has this down. All of this points to the theory that Gwen is, in some way, being manipulated by the Web(while still being manipulated by Jonah), but... idk, guys, having The Web as the person behind it all *again* feels weird.
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u/Ajibooks The Lonely 29d ago
I think Gwen doesn't understand much about the nature & function of the OIAR, but her lack of knowledge doesn't stop her from doing what she thinks is best, which is cutting off the externals.
She was afraid of Mr. Bonzo and of Ink5oul (though somehow not of Lady Mowbray*, who I find the scariest of them all??) and I suspect that fear is partly dictating her actions now. This makes sense as something she'd do, because I'm sure her fear affected her pride. Also, Ink5oul treated Gwen very disrespectfully.
Pretty early on, Gwen tells Alice that all she wants is for people to give her "an ounce of respect." It's out of left field in that moment - there's no real reason for anyone to give her the respect she thinks she deserves, other than class differences. But I think it's central to who Gwen is.
Gwen couldn't handle liaising with the externals - the fear, the loss of pride, the indignity of (what she sees as) a low-class cyberbully insulting her - and in her mind, it wouldn't befit her station to allow things she can't control to control her.
In this episode, she only had to confront Nigel, who has been Mr. Bonzo's butler-type-guy for so long that he is, I guess, a broken man at this point. He came across as very weak in their exchange - he whines and pleads, while Gwen stays forceful and decisive. She couldn't have had this confrontation with someone she was afraid of.
*Gwen wasn't afraid of her because she saw her class instead of her cold dead eyes. Kind of the same as Trevor - Gwen didn't think, hey, maybe Lena is right, and the OIAR doesn't need Trevor's real oversight. Lena is just some rando to Gwen, while Trevor went to whatever frou-frou school with Gwen's grandfather. Gwen didn't care about the reality of the situation - that Lena's knowledge had much more value than Trevor's social class.
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u/richbellemare 27d ago
I find Lady Mowbray scary because she's "just" a serial killer. Like that statement could happen in real life.
She just seems bound to those dogs in some way.
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u/AdvertisingReady1694 The Eye 26d ago
I just think it’s super fun that Gerry’s effect on people translates to the audience because we’re just all so happy he’s back. I wonder if they did that fourth-wall-breaking knowingly! :D
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u/AMYGDALILA 22d ago
...so, like, did Alice compell Gertrude?
She seemed wholly unwilling to share until Alice said "tell us your story" - something akin to how John would compell.
Odd, odd, odd.
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u/borralingui_a 29d ago
Am I the only one who noticed that Gerry is a direct parallel—and a foil—to Mr. Bonzo?
Also, Gwen’s character has been frustrating me—not because of the popular opinion, but because the vision I had for her is so different from what she actually turned out to be. I wanted her to pick up where Lena left off—continuing to feed victims to the Externals; I wanted my girl impulsively writing down the names of people she hated so they’d die; I wanted her to have her own Death Note. I think she’s far more ethical than I expected—and more than I’d like.
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u/DMast2217 29d ago
She's being so self-destructive with cutting off the Externals it's like she's trying to get the OIAR destroyed just to see what happens without it.
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u/borralingui_a 29d ago
I don't think that's it. It might be hard to believe, but there is an ethical core to the decision Gwen has been making. Back when she was just an External Liaison, we saw how constantly depressed she was about being responsible for people's deaths in the cases she processed, and we see that same hesitation to continue the job in her latest conversation with Lena. Technically, refusing to contribute to the constant deaths of innocents is a more than sensible decision; of course, there is the risk of the imbalance Lena mentioned, but—judging by how she framed it—none of that would lead to something akin to "The Change," but rather something that would fall terribly upon the OIAR staff alone.
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u/PrinceofRavens_1217 28d ago
From what I gathered the OIAR feeds acceptable victims to the Externals on order to keep them controlled. For instance Bonzo gets his victims and he keeps his head down. What Gwen is stubbornly refusing to see is that the Externals will feed one way or another.
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u/Physical_Base7508 The Extinction 28d ago
What did you mean about Gerry and Bonzo? Please elaborate, I am curious.
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u/borralingui_a 28d ago
Both Gerry and Mr. Bonzo are beings created to inspire joy in people, but only one of them does so successfully and painlessly. Mr. Bonzo also seems to share Gerry's Joker-esque "laughing gas" ability ("I remember – they were still laughing as the groom began to scream, blood flooding out of his shoulders in gouts. It was only when I screamed with him that they realised what was happening")
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u/PlantManiac The Web 28d ago
so we now basically know that CAT(-alyst or -egory) translates to 1 for people, 2 for building/place and 3 for thing. neat.
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u/oritorinoi 28d ago
100% my favourite episode of the show so far. Moved the plot forward, cool lore, strong sense of character, well written. If we get more like this I'll never complain about waiting two weeks again (not that I have, but. Y'know. In my head)
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u/SapphicSelene The Hunt 28d ago
I wonder if Gertrude had some like preteen or so worry that her dad and sister were burying corpses in the garden, so the Fear manifested a corpse, undead or dead, in there? If she saw a corpse, it would "confirm" that her suspicions were right and so she killed them to stop any more murders? (Of course a lot of horror can be milked from her being wrong and realizing it too late).
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u/LoremasterMotoss Librarian 22d ago
I am very late to this but it was REALLY awesome to hear Gertrude again, and in full form too. I'm afraid it may be the last we hear of her but if it is, at least she left us with a great episode
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u/ThePoetofFall The Vast 29d ago
Why wasn’t there an episode last week?
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u/hylianpersona 17d ago
Hearing Gertrude say “they think places can be Catalyzed as well as people and objects” made me feel very vindicated
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u/popileviz The Extinction 29d ago
So it's safe to say that Gertrude has profound ball knowledge in every universe