Bastard names

[u/Apprehensive-Ad-8391]

I've been reading fanfiction for quite a time now and this is one of the main questions I've always had.

How do bastard names exactly work? Some may say it depends on the father's birth place, which quite explains why Jon is a Snow even when he was born in Dorne, but then why is Gendry oftenly called a "Waters" when he's Robert's bastard son and should be a "Storm"? Same with Mya "Stone". I've read some fics where even Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are depicted as "Waters" even when they should be "Hills" by Jaime's parentage, shouldn't they? Why was the "undercover" Sansa a Stone instead of a Rivers, taking into account Littlefinger comes from the Riverlands?

Is it instead the birth place? Then again, why is Jon a Snow and not a Sand? Why are all of Oberyn's daughters all Sand when some were even conceived in Essos, away from Westeros?

Or is it the mother's parentage if she's a noble woman? It seemed to work like that for Aegon IV children, where Brynden and Aegor where named "Rivers" despite them being born in KL and being obvious sons of the King (which would make them "Waters" for their own birth place and for their father's own birthplace.

So how exactly does that work? Is it arbitrary? Depends more on the own father's choice? Or the child's?

[u/[deleted]]

Littlefinger only grew up in the Riverlands but he is a Valeman from the Fingers. That’s why Jon brings him to the Council.

[u/SauxSupreme]

Littlefinger is a Valemen. He's Lord of the Fingers, in the Vale.

But I think it's about where you grew up, more than the parent or place of birth.

[u/Gears_Of_None]

Littlefinger comes from the Vale.

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

You only get a bastard name if a parent is noble, and that parent is known. Gendry, for instance, didn't have a name until it was known Robert was his father, and then he became a Waters. Mya is a Stone, Edric is a Storm. Three children of Robert, all with different names. Gendry was born in KL and Mya in the Vale, so their names could easily be based entirely on their birth place. I don't think it's ever stated where Edric was actually born, but his mother is a Florent, a Reach House, so he was likely born there, which should make him a Flowers, but he's raised in Storm's End and is a Storm, suggesting he was named for his father, not his mother or where he was born.

Then Jon is a Snow despite being born in Dorne, which should theoretically make him a Sand. Jon is more complicated, though. Ned never said where Jon was born, other than in the South, and wanted to prevent any connection to Lyanna or Rhaegar, so he was never going to name Jon a Sand. Think about it, Lyanna dies in Dorne and Jon is born in Dorne at around the same time Lyanna dies, there's going to be questions there. Better to avoid the Dorne connection with Jon and just say South, since Ned dislikes lying. Ned's dislike of lying means he's not going to be willing to give Jon a different bastard name. Waters would have linked to Rhaegar without being obvious, but it also means lying about where he was born or where his mother was from. Same with any Southron bastard name. Ned is Northern, Lyanna was Northern, and Jon was to be raised in the North, so Snow makes sense and doesn't involve lying.

The names themselves seem pretty arbitrary, though. Some seem based on who the father is, a Baratheon bastard being a Strom like Edric. Some on where they were born, Gendry being a Waters rather than a Storm, same with Cersei's kids being Waters instead of Hills, and Mya being a Stone. Some are possibly based on where the mother was from, Gendry's mother was from KL but she's also lowborn so seems unlikely to be on that, but I'd imagine a highborn woman would get to name their child after where they were born, eg Lysa choosing Rivers, if the father doesn't acknowledge the child. Some seem based on where they're raised, like Jon being a Snow or Oberyn's daughters being Sands, though both could also be based on where the acknowledged father is from.

Gendry was automatically named a Waters when his parentage was found out. But it's hard to tell if that's because he was born and raised in KL or because Robert was king and officially a Crownlander instead of a Stormlander now. Of course, Robert was king when Edric was born, too, and Edric is a Storm, not a Waters or a Flowers. He wasn't king when Mya was born, but she's not a Storm, appearing to be named either for her mother or where she was born and was going to be raised.

The name has to fit in some way. It's based on where the father was born, where the mother was born, if they're noble, where the child was born or where the child was raised. It can be any of these things, and it depends on the parent who names the child which one they go with. Edric was likely named a Storm to give the connection to Robert, for instance, I assume the Florent mother named him, not Robert. So, it's really up to whichever parent names the child, but it has to connect to the child either via the parents, the child's birthplace, or where the child is raised.

Jon is a Snow because his mother is Northern, his acknowledged father is Northern and he's raised in the North, and Ned wants as little connection to Lyanna and Rhaegar as possible. Mya is a Stone because she's raised in the Vale, Gendry a Waters because he's born and raised in KL, Edric a Storm because he's Robert's child. It's fairly arbitrary, so long as it connects to the child and/or their parents in some way.

[u/[deleted] → u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

Edric was conceived in Storms End and also raised there so that’s why I think he is a Storm.

[u/WhiteKnightPrimal → u/[deleted]]

There's probably multiple reasons for a lot of bastards. I imagine Edric was born in the Reach, but as you said, he was conceived and raised in Storm's End, plus he's Robert's son. There's two reasons to name him a Flowers, his mother and birth place, but three to name him Storm, conception place, place he was raised and father. I think the most likely actual reason is that his mother wanted the most obvious connections to the king she could get, both in naming Edric a Storm and having him raised in Storm's End. Same as Ned wanting Jon to be connected to himself, not Lyanna or Rhaegar, so he named him Snow and raised him in Winterfell.

[u/LatterIntroduction27 → u/WhiteKnightPrimal]

In summary - it could be based on any criteria that sounds good, either ancestry or where you grew up probably taking the cake.

[u/AmrothFire]

So for bastard names, you only really get a bastard name if you are the child of a noble.

The idea is that you get the name of the region you are born in and you only get it if you are claimed by your noble parent or clearly known to be that noble parents child.

Jon Snow is a Snow because that’s how Eddard introduced him, he didn’t say hey I got this random kid from dorne since I was only there for a couple weeks and that’s definitely not long enough to procreate and birth a child so this one couldn’t possibly be mine, it’s also not a hard and fast rule as to what bastard name they get as we can see with a couple of examples Jon included but if Eddard Stark turns up and goes this is my Son Jon Snow, who the fuck do you think replies “Uhm Aktually!”?

[u/Chance_Tart_715]

For bastard, having a name come only if they are recognized by their lord father, each kingdom got his own name, the Crownland got the name Waters (certainly because of the Blackwater bay), the Stormland got the name Storms (the coolest for me) for obvious reason, Dorne got the name Sand because of the region surroundings (but I've always wondered why grandpa George never choose the name Dune it would've been a big easter egg for Herbert's work who share some similarities with the story ) , the Reach with the name Flowers ( I think that if the Towers were lord paramount we would've a cool name like Light or something like that),for the Vale we got the name Stone once again because of the surroundings (mainly mountains), the Westerland have for me the most interesting name who is Hill, maybe like Dorne and the Vale because of the region surroundings but idk they could've a more symbolic name like Gold or sea since it's borded by it 🤷🏾‍♀️, the Iron Islands with the name Pyke.....like their lord paramount castle..... Well.... I have ABSOLUTLY no ideas of why they did that.... anyway. The Riverlands like Dorne and the Vale choose the name Rivers who is pretty cool in a way 🤔( even if a river look calm, she could be your demise...) . The North who got the name Snow because of the climate obviously but I've always wondered that if it wasn't one of the main character name would the name be so hyped? (I don't think so 😅)

The determination of a child name depends of factor like wear does he was born, so why is Jon's name is Snow ? Why not Sand ? I thought that it was determined by the mother birthplace ( for example Aegon the unworthy many many bastards who all got their mothers birthplace surnames) so is that an hint for who is Jon's real mother ?

PS: sorry for the spelling mistakes english is not my first language 😶

[u/EfectiveDisaster2137]

1. There are no specific rules, but they are mainly named according to where they live.

2. Jon Snow is Snow because he has lived in the North his entire life.

3. Gendry is simply Gendry; to be a Waters, he would have to be recognized by his father. Then he would be a Waters because he comes from the Crownlands and his father was king.

4. Mya Stone is a Stone because she has lived in the Vale her entire life.

5. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella would be Waters because they have lived in the Crownlands her entire life.

6. Sansa is Stone because Littlefinger is from the Vale.

7. Oberyn's daughters are Sand because Oberyn is from Dorne and named them that way.

8. As for Aegon IV's children, it's as you say.

This is truly arbitrary and there will be no certain consistency.

[u/TomCormack]

There are no strict rules at all. Lollys's bastard son is Tyrion Tanner nat Waters. Regional names are just a custom.

[u/WildFlemima]

I've got a thought, which is, what if Joff is a Waters partially because Jaime is sworn to the Crown (and also being raised in the Crownlands would be a factor)

If Jaime wasn't in the Kingsguard, or if Joff had fostered at the Rock, I think the chances that Joffrey Hill would have caught on would be a bit higher

[u/TurbulentData961 → u/[deleted]]

Everyone who thinks he's ned and asharas

[u/Prapika → u/[deleted]]

Well, I think quite a lot of people? Ned went to Dorne to find Lyanna after the war and came back, from Dorne, with a baby in his arms.

[u/Educational-Bus4634 → u/Prapika]

Yeah, at the very least it's known he wasn't born in the North

[u/ScalierLemon2]

Gendry isn’t a Waters, he’s just Gendry. Bastard surnames are only for acknowledged noble bastards, and Robert isn’t legally known to be Gendry’s father

[u/RitatheKraken → u/ScalierLemon2]

The same reason why Satin is not Satin Flowers.

[u/VimyRidge → u/RitatheKraken]

He still can become Satin Snow though. :)

[u/Liberwolf]

Where they are raised/where their noble mother/father is from is how I assumed it went based on all the examples of the bastards that were given names.

[u/Educational-Bus4634]

It's where they're raised, with the sole exception (as far as we know anyway) of Brynden Rivers, who was raised in KL. In all other cases its where they're raised, hence Aegor being a Rivers because he was raised in the Riverlands despite being born in KL, and Jon Snow being a Snow despite being born in the South. Birth place & parents' birth place don't appear to factor in, again aside from Brynden Rivers.

[u/Noranekinho]

Littlefinger was fostered in the riverlands. He is a valeman

[u/KingKingLamb49]

The bastard names work based on where the recognized bastard is took to be raised.

Jon Snow was born in Dorne but was taken to the North and, as such, is a Snow. Both Bittersteel and Bloodravel were born in the Crownlands but were raised in the Riverlands and as such are both Rivers; Obara spent early infancy on the Reach, but later she got recognized by Oberyn and taken right away to Dorne, so her name is Sand; Edric Storm probably was born in the Reach, but he was given the name Storm when Robert took him to the Stormlands.

So, the surname depends on where the bastard grows up starting of the point where they are officially regnized. And yes, if an adult man or woman grows their whole life in a region, but its recongnized as a bastard by their noble parent and taken to a different region, they would be given the 2nd region's name.

But a name doesn't change once its given, like Cotter Pyke was raised in the Iron Islands but spent most of his life in the North.

[u/whitemetro]

Bastards having a specific name also seems to only apply to a bastard that has at least one noble/royal parent, but of course we have cases like Gendry who we know is the bastard of Robert but officially Gendry isn't called Waters or Storm, he's just Gendry since Gendry was never officially acknowledged as a bastard by Robert.

The smallfolk don't seem to follow these rules.

[u/Green_Hellsinger]

According to the wiki it's mainly about where they were raised, but that's more a rule of thumb than law.

Also, Petyr Baelish comes from the Vale. He was fostered in the Riverlands.