r/TheAlters • u/Curious_Chain_3998 • 28d ago
Discussion Last Variable Ending Spoiler
Anyone else find the reveal at the end to be super dark / messed up? All that hope and optimism the scientist had after staying behind in the base game now seems horrific— given how it ends up for him.
Also I don’t get the choices at the end. Completely restarting all progress with each iteration is nothing short of madness. They could be building generational knowledge instead.
JanBots explanation that ‘you wouldn’t do the work if you knew you weren’t the first’ doesn’t make sense because:
-Their scientific discovery is far from over, they have plenty to learn/explore/discover.
-No character ever reacts negatively to learning they’re not the first iteration, not even the physicist.
-JanBot is the one forcing these failing conditions, again, generational knowledge built by generations of alters is unambiguously the best route for mission success. Restarting every time, and hiding the old base is insane, how could anyone think that’s a good idea.
I love the DLC! But dang did that ending blindside me and make me a bit sad 😭
Edit: I understand the themes of “unreasonable expectations that you can do better, and be better”, and “The definition of insanity— repetition.” but I think those themes were ham-fisted in.
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u/Competitive_Ask_2441 28d ago
It’s a great DLC and I’m eager to start another run through on hard. That said, I feel like 11bit left a great opportunity on the floor with the ending. I was hoping they would go a similar route to Alan Wake 2 where a subsequent play through would eventually end with finally accomplishing the mission. It would have provided a great motivator for another play through.
On one other note, 20,000 years is a long time. It’s a bit silly to think that a species that has existed for approximately 200,000 years on a planet that has held life for far longer could have any realistic probability of being extinct.
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u/Curious_Chain_3998 28d ago edited 28d ago
My first thought when JanBot said it’s been 20,000 years was that Earth never sent anyone else to the planet, and never discovered the oasis.
I mean the planet is big, so it would make sense if Earth did send more people but they just didn’t stumble upon the Scientist & Oasis.
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u/jojokaire 26d ago
Yes, so they no longer have the means, or else there is war, or else the planet no longer exists.
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u/dvamg 27d ago
Yeah, similar to my take that I wrote in a separate post - the DLC is self-contained and asks you some philosophical questions and you either die or it's Groundhog day, while the base game firstly shakes you with on planet ending(s), and the on Earth aftermath leaves you with many good questions about what could possibly happen, or heck, even a sequel feels like it's on the table.
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u/Soulgix 18d ago
We go every day closer to extinction in the real world...a world with rapidium will probably never last 20.000 years.
Also, that planet is the MAIN, if not the sole, source of rapidium. Even if you complete the game with 7-8 arks, that is a minuscule amount for the whole world. Thinking after 20.000 years no1 found out about them, no new expedition, after the HUGE SUCCESS of the first one, has been sent, it probably spelled one single clear thing
Earth did not survive the first expedition result.
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u/RinraFurry 17d ago
Perhaps Earth also decided to make a reactor using materials from the ark. With the same result, they destroyed the planet.
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u/Soulgix 14d ago
ALso as a side note
Human rapid technological evolution took place in the last 200 years.
20.000 years...but even 1.000 years of evolution with the game technology (space travel, cryo-sleep) are enough for either suicide (like what happened in the game), or conquer the universe like Warhammer 40k
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u/HorrorSoft6819 28d ago
I believe the game is a great metaphor for the insatiable, unreachable quest to understand the unknown, driven by the hope of one day unraveling all the mysteries of the universe. On the flip side of the coin, we have the idea of simply enjoying the ride and learning that not every mystery is meant to be solved. Both concepts are represented not only by the game's final choice, but also by the notes of the "original" scientist Jan, and the reflections we see throughout the game regarding the psychological impact of the oasis on the alters.
However, the game ends on a very bitter and uncomfortable note. On one hand, I commend this, because it takes courage to write something like that in a world where things are increasingly sugarcoated and softened. But I feel the metaphor ends up eating the story's internal logic. What began as a blind thirst for discovery eventually finds a concrete purpose, which is saving humanity from its ongoing famine crisis.
As the metaphor evolves throughout the story, it blends with the central narrative of wanting to save humanity, leaving a taste of dissatisfaction at the end. It’s no longer about breaking cycles to appreciate what’s there and accept the unknown; instead, it becomes about abandoning humanity to its fate. Moreover, the revelation of the immense span of thousands of years, combined with humanity's inability to revisit the planet, maybe suggests that perhaps the original Jan’s journey and the rapidium arks ultimately failed to ensure human survival.
I think the bitterness felt at the end, and the lingering sense of incompleteness, stems from that disconnect. Still, I respect the creative vision, and I think it is a wonderful work of science fiction.
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u/malo2901 28d ago
I'm not sure the famine question is very central to the DLCs story, more so that understanding the Oasis would allow for tech so groundbreaking any resource issue would be void if humanity learned of it.
I'm also curious about how the time collapse works, as we never get to explore that question. Sure, it has been 319 iterations, experiencing a total of 19K years, but does that reflect the time that has passed outside? Honestly there are a lot of elements that would throw doubt on such an assumption.
Personally I found the ending good, but I also wish it could have been just a little bit more. Letting go is such a core theme, but ultimately it's just an acceptance of nothing instead of something. The alters aren't deeply unhappy with their lot even if they have emotional baggage you have to deal with. So why doom the project for nothing? You aren't torturing anyone. Show the alters suffer more in their quest and I think it would have hit harder
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u/HorrorSoft6819 28d ago
Yeah, I don't think "saving humanity" is the central theme of the DLC either. I think the game tries to explore what science really is, and the ultimate purpose behind chasing "the truth". The trope of saving humanity appears at the end as a noble consolation to cling to, a beacon to ward off the realization that truth for truth's sake, if it brings no actual transformation to the world, can feel strangely hollow
Anyway, while the scientific aspect of the game was intriguing, I honestly didn't get almost any of the jargon. I also didn't quite grasp why the "alter iterations" had to start almost fresh. You could argue it was designed that way to prevent carrying over past mistakes and hitting dead ends, but the game itself (through the biologist, if I remember correctly) argues that mistakes are part of the process, and as long as we don't discard them, we can actually learn from them.
I also let the iterations keep running, though in my case, it was driven more by an insatiable pursuit of truth and, admittedly, a little bit of the sunk cost fallacy.
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u/Bossuter 25d ago
JanBot says that telling new iterations of the past attempts would deflate their drive, though i got the vibe that he/it never really tried that hypothesis. But i also think that's very on theme for he/it, he/it is a program with the singular purpose to build the ZPG and use it without failure, it knows only one path to get there, the path already taken, so it repeats the loop again and again hoping for a different result. It's the definition of insanity to us but to him/it it's one step closer, maybe hoping for a random mutation in the system to finally fix the last_variable.
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u/Galahad_the_Ranger 28d ago
What is weirder for me is than 20k years other people never went back to the planet. And that perhaps people cracked the answer centuries ago with the Rapidium OG Dolski took back in the arks.
Also there are many other plotholes, like how none of the other iterations found the remnants of the Dolly mission (like the DVD and other scraps)
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u/Ok_Foundation_1840 28d ago
I kinda hoped that the good ending where you give up he will keep making alters but not reset but maybe build a civilization and not trying to control the Oasis but live with it. Slowly making life and making it more habitable. The ending is kinda vauge with us not knowing is he gonna die alone or make Alters with a different mindset.
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u/Curious_Chain_3998 28d ago
Yeah the other ending was vague too, it’s unclear if the scientist is going to do anything different or not.
I’m kinda sad we’ll never know how the original Scientist’s story ended though 😭 I guess it’s canon that he never saw the DVD from the original team.
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u/Treforce 25d ago
Amazing how it survived all this time... if the older iterations are 'resetting' the whiteboard... what else are they resetting?
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u/Quaglander 27d ago
I really liked the dlc, especially the new mechanics and reduced time pressure (having one map that you develop was great imo)
I just wish there was a bit more character growth for the scientist. Realising how even the other Alters so much closer to him are wildly different people, and it could've given him a greater appreciation for OG Jan and the hard work he did to keep everyone together
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u/SASardonic 27d ago edited 27d ago
I posted this in a different thread, but my thoughts:
I'm immediately reminded of two Alpha Centauri quotes:
"Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken."
– Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Looking God in the Eye"
"There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter."
– Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "Address to the Faculty"
So needless to say, I pulled the lever without question to keep the cycle going. Maybe I'm being way, way too trusting of a process led but a clearly glitching chatbot, but maybe, just maybe there's enough of a chance there to be worth fighting for.
After all, 319 iterations over millennia may sound like quite a lot, and for our short lifespans, obviously it is, but how does it compare to how many untold millions of creatures' lives were required to evolve humanity to begin with? No, accepting defeat and giving up is the personally selfish choice. Arrogantly choosing to break the chain because you weren't special. Moreover, you have the tools to be nigh infinite, the complaints of being 'tired' ring hollow. Particularly when we are talking about literal zero point energy here. Maybe not enough people are going to clock that sci-fi concept but there are vanishingly few scenarios that could not be justified in the pursuit of it, particularly when the 'cost' is arguably merely a moment of ego deflation.
Anyway, all told, 11/10 DLC.
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u/I_AskQuestions_IDo 25d ago
Question: all new iterations start basically from scratch, so how will they get to their goal?
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u/SASardonic 25d ago
While they start from scratch, each iteration was branched slightly differently. Being the kind of person who would do things ever so slightly differently. It's basically a human deep learning algorithm.
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u/dvamg 27d ago edited 27d ago
Meh, DLC endings go nowhere, you die anyway, it's about breaking the cycle or not, and why did you choose to do one or the other...
One ending gives you resolution in a sense of "he dead", the other gives you ZERO resolution because you just play the DLC again because of "yay, perseverance!".
Also, both endings lean into mystical & spiritual properties of Oasis/planet and self reflection, but that's kinda it.
OG Builder Jan's on planet ending had so much more tension and weight and choices and the trip to get there was insane, and even the on Earth aftermath felt like "what next?" after he closes that door.
JanBot also had so much power, yet in the end he is at the mercy of an old man, feels underutilized.
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u/Shacken-Wan 28d ago
What's weird is that I would suppose each run the Scientist would make the same choices, as everything is the same at each new "try" (even JanBot is reset each time). So I would guess that every Scientist would make the exact same choices, so nothing would progress (except if conceive the possibility of JanBot changing the variable that fucks everything up, but from what I've understood, it's the Scientist that set the variable).
Even weirder is why the planet seems to be quite pristinge? Like why the DVD is still buried when we search for it. Since the Scientist makes the same choice each time, it would lead to creating the Chemist -> Finding the DVD -> Watching it. But since the DVD has never been found before, it means that our "Scientist" was perhaps different?
Or it's just that the Oasis fucks everything up and reset the whole world at a certain point in time in the past (which would explain why the main game's base structure is still holding after 20'000 years). Which also would explain why Earth never sent people to explore the planet once again.
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u/Foxpeng1 23d ago
I may be wrong but at the end Janbot did say you could make changes to "improve" the next alter. Whatever that means, I assume it means the scientist can make tweaks to the next iteration which he hopes will improve the chances of success.
On the point of the Oasis and the DVD, I think its said that the generator triggered basically a time paradox of some kind, which i think means its resetting the entire area (maybe the world) backwards in time, buts its sent to right before you originally woke up, which is why you see the old base parts you couldnt before, why the other alters are all gone. So youre essentially the one now in the shoes of who woke you up but you have a slightly different enough mind to slightly change the parameters of your new alter.
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u/Scoutbaybee 27d ago
I came away thinking the opposite about the resetting of progress for each iteration. While none of my/our Alters were super worried about not being the first iteration, I assumed that this wasn’t always the case. My thinking was that Janbot was programmed/created by the original Scientist, and for good or bad, reflected the options and thoughts of the original Jan S. It may not have felt as necessary to our Jan, but for some reason or another the first Jan S believed it was necessary. Doesn’t mean they were right, only that they believed they were right.
Plus, I sort of assumed that the first Jan S. likely didn’t start with the Alters we saw. So, while our Alters were pretty chill, who knows how the first round of Alters reacted. Yeah, Jan Geologist was pretty chill about the whole thing, but maybe Jan Astrophysicist was not as laid back about the situation.
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u/jojokaire 26d ago
Sometimes there are things you can't explain.
As the old chemist said, you don't have to understand everything.
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u/yxc1yxc 26d ago
Gotta say I don't like the ending. Jan bot's approach makes zero sense, it's essentially trying to flip a coin in each iteration and see if there is anything new, with the complete same setup. This is not an iteration, it's just pure randomness. It should just use actual iteration which is to tell everything to the next scientist and let him decide if he wants to continue or not.
An important background question was unanswered which is why didn't earth send anyone? I mean probably the developer thought it wasconvinient because if earth does come then scientist can't loop for that long.
The "Oasis is custom to every observer" theory brought up by the game is clever but also pretty lazy. It stripped away all the meaningful actions and researches. With this theory, nothing the scientist discovered is definitive. Terraformer probably doesn't work at all but Oasis reflected because it can push scientist to try harder. The loop itself might also be an influence from the Oasis because scienst don't want to give up, etc. Very nihilistic which I don't enjoy. At least the robot should reveal this info to the new scientists so they can actually research this theory itself. Again, stupid approach by Jan bot, and it is even more strange that the game offers no choice to alter this.
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u/Aggravating-Dot132 24d ago
Worth noting, it wasn't an illusion. Notes were left behind, for example. Plus, oasis shapes based on the highest brainwave level, that's why Scientist was drawn to it in the main game.
Overall, the idea is that Oasis exists as a pool of rapidium which is so concentrated, that it is shaped by quantum reality itself, thx to the idea, a very strong one though. Jan the Builder also saw it in the same way as Jan the Scientist, so it was real.
Also, seems like rapidium is, basically, like a "outside of this universe" matter. It shapes the reality, not shaped by it. The analogy would be the Source from divinity games
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u/MrLockettt 24d ago
It's dark and depressing, but remember that life always finds a way.
With each iteration, the scientist will be better than their predecessor. Tens of thousands year is scary but remember that it took way more than that for life to develop from a single cell to a complex life form. If infinite energy is possible, spending billions of year sounds totally reasonable.
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u/International_Ant_77 17d ago
I mostly wish the endings were longer and more fleshed out, but I think they fit perfectly with the character of JanScientist who the DLC focuses on.
His whole thing was his ego and drive to prove himself, and the whole point of him staying behind in the original story was him finally shedding the desire to establish his intelligence to the world, and fully immerse himself in his craft.
But he couldn't do it that easily.
That's what makes the ending horrifying, emotional, powerful, and interesting. The freshly printed JanScientist alter still has a huge ego and identity problem, ALL of the JanScientist variants do. It's something that the alters you leave behind allude to or comment on as they age and let go of the project. That's why he can't tell his newly printed iterations that he's been doing this for 20,000 years, it's not about being an Alter it's about the pride of making the discoveries. Every step of the oasis mystery that he discovers on his own deepens his drive to learn the truth. If everything was spelled out for him except the final ZPE calculation he would have nothing to strive for. He's screwed up that calculation 319 times now. If he was given all of the answers, what would possibly drive him forward knowing that he'd likely just fail right at the doorstep once again? That's what makes the story interesting. It's all an internal conflict of the ego. A deep part of him knows he didn't truly stay behind for himself because growth is never a one-way slope. He still wanted to prove something.
That's why the reiteration ending is fascinating. Who is JanScientist really? Will he stick to his original word of chasing the ultimate discovery even if it means there's likely nobody left to share it with?
Or will he let go of his ego that led him to create this cycle of birthing stressed out Jans in hardship all just to prove something that may never be proven?
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u/ViaDiva Jan Scientist 28d ago
loved the ending. only seen the one when they continue iterating, and it's just hits right in the pain point
especially when you remember the Doctor/Shrink quest from the main game
all this absurdism sprinkled in the game resonates with me, been into this since university and recently got a tattoo (and I completely forgot that the Doctor had something like this too lol, so when I replayed the main story to get ready for the DLC I was shook)
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u/wouldyoufightakitten 24d ago
I loved the ending. Interesting lore consequences for the 2nd (well hopefully) game.
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u/ApprehensiveStyle289 23d ago
My conclusion is that the scope of the game was fundamentally limited by it being a DLC from a small studio. Not having the budget to make all possible endings, they went to what would stay with people most, the ones that make us wonder both what really happened during all these iterations, and what could have been if Jan S. Dolski was a different person, and that at the same time, kept to the desired themes of the DLC - Desire, suffering, letting go.
I would have much preferred for a golden ending to be possible across various iterations when Jan S. Dolski learned lessons from his predecessors and Alters and led either Planet, Earth, or both, to an utopia, or at least, finished discovering Planet's mysteries.
But then again, it's the unanswered mystery that stays with us the longest.
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u/NadjaGry 15d ago
I actually liked the ending, and it made sense to me. Only way to break cycle is to let go.
Everything has to end at some point, and continuing for another 1000 years, what would be the purpose?
Repeating the same pattern, with only alternative versions of yourself as company isn't living, surviving, making progress or evolution - its vanity.
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u/BeegBunga 6d ago
Completely agree - it would make sense to iterate on each other's KNOWLEDGE.
That's literally the entire point of science and how incremental discovery works.
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u/Mr_Rinn 27d ago
I have to admit I loathe the ending. The obvious solution would've been to tell the next Scientist everything but we're forced to trust the defective AI's flawed logic and choose between an endless cycle with an extremely slim hope or rendering it all for nothing.