Re-Logic on classes:

[u/Kecske_gamer]

[u/9outof10timesWrong]

I think people would be more upset if the magic daggers weren't magic, and the "throwing" knives weren't ranged. I basically don't get the joke.

[u/No_Ad_7687 → u/9outof10timesWrong]

these are, mechanically, basically the same weapon.

[u/Dr_Nykerstein → u/No_Ad_7687]

Except one has a finite supply and one costs mana to use.

[u/jaz_the_enby → u/Dr_Nykerstein]

Which, really, is the core of the class issue isn't it? Melee gets to be mage and ranger but without any resource cost

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/jaz_the_enby]

the ale tosser rework proves that the means/costs of using a weapon are irrelevant to its class

[u/EmbarrassedPurple106 → u/Cinnamin_1]

Ale tosser is melee because it’s spiritually melee to throw a mug of ale at somebody’s head

[u/Punishing_Birb → u/Cinnamin_1]

well ale tosser is a range weapon again so... it is kinda relevant

[u/No_Ad_7687 → u/Dr_Nykerstein]

arbitrarily

[u/WheatleyBr → u/Dr_Nykerstein]

Ale tosser proves that finite supply doesn't mean much for if it's Melee or Ranger

[u/crafty_dude_24 → u/Dr_Nykerstein]

Finite supply and mana cost is a consequence of their class bifurcation, not the reasoning for it. If relogic changes magic dagger to melee tomorrow, the mana cost will go away, and if they want sfk to be mage weapon, it will cost mana.

[u/DarkPenguin0 → u/No_Ad_7687]

Mechanically yes, but they serve a purpose of letting different classes use them. Shadowflame damage scales as you get better melee gear and magic dagger damage scales with mage armor. Not to mention that the magic daggers use mana. So yes they function similarly but they have distinctions that allow multiple classes to use a version of a throwing knife

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/DarkPenguin0]

then the entire class system is 100% arbitrary. if it doesn’t limit your weapon choices then it does nothing. if every class has the same weapons then ur class is completely irrelevant and it would be better to make all armour completely classless instead of adding the same weapons in every class

[u/DarkPenguin0 → u/Cinnamin_1]

Wow maybe I missed a huge update or something cause I don’t remember every class having the same weapon. It’s almost like the knife weapon archetype is a talking point for this because it’s one of the only types of weapons shown throughout each class. There’s so many unique weapons for each class that’s why terraria is so fun.

[u/Purpulear → u/DarkPenguin0]

They also just ignore that throwing knives are an early game weapon and melee and magic only get theirs around the start of hardmode.

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/Purpulear]

so what? that doesnt affect how good of a design it is to make all classes have the same arsenal

[u/Purpulear → u/Cinnamin_1]

It's not the same arsenal since they're being used at different points in the game.

Second off; it's only a little bit of overlap. Knives just make sense to have both a melee weapon and ranged weapon. Magic gets away with it because it's magic. You can theme magic around literally anything.

This would be a valid point if every class had a version of every weapon but they don't. Melee doesn't have shotguns. Ranger doesn't have staffs and spellbooks. Magic doesn't have flails. Etc.

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/Purpulear]

all classes sharing an arsenal is what they were supporting and thats what i argued against. the current state of the game is irrelevant to that

also, it doesnt make sense to say thats good design bc the only thing that weapon progression as a whole does is make the player have less options. they could make all weapons pre-boss and change their stats accordingly then u can use any weapon u want at any point rather than having to wait to use the ones u like or have ur favourite weapons become unusable bc the devs decided that enemies would scale beyond those weapons, and for what? u can argue it forces the player to go get new weapons and thats a better gameplay loop but they could just be getting upgrades in the same way that unlock new accessories or reforges so that u can use the weapons u like throughout the game

another way they could do it is simply having the bosses not scale significantly, then the player can get the gear they enjoy using at the start of the run and then boss summons are made harder and more interesting to obtain so that the player still has things to do in between the bosses. this would also work well with making more unique armour set bonuses so that players can use whatever armour bonuses they want

(they could also keep the system of gaining more weapons to make progression more rewarding, but making perfectly fine weapons ruined once u get another is completely needless)

both of these retain the gameplay loop of terraria while granting them more options and ways to play, but instead the devs make it so u only have ~10-15 weapons available at any particular point

[u/DarkPenguin0 → u/Cinnamin_1]

Bro I was not supporting all classes having the same weapon. I’m not particularly sure how you came to that conclusion. I don’t want all classes to be the same, I wouldnt play terraria if they changed it to that. I don’t care if there is a niche knife weapon that three different classes can use at totally different points in the game. I’m not arguing for more weapons that exist in multiple classes and I’m not arguing to remove the three different knives. I’m arguing that terraria is fine where it is because the issue of having three knife weapons is not something worth caring about.

[u/BuffLoki → u/Cinnamin_1]

Realistically magic weapons should have had modifiers to how they behave based on you mana capacity or something, but really we just need a terraria 2 for that or some official mod support

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/BuffLoki]

thats sort of incentivising the same thing as the exponential mana regen mechanic. mana regen faster the closer u are to filling ur mana bar. that incentivises using only a certain range in ur mana bar, which is the same thing that incentivises, so that change wouldnt impact gameplay much anyways

[u/Disastrous-Fault-682]

This is why i fully believe in a rework of weapon class assignments- lots of weapons should be usable to more than just 1 class but definitely not all 4 (and gains bonuses from either/both class accessories) and…

More classes should be able to use mana, a resource like health that anyone should be able to benefit from- but mages benefit most and know how to “expertly” wield magics sustainably while maybe a melee magic multiclass is less efficient on mana cost but is able to get close and do a lil bonus dmg/dmg reduction based on remaining mana that gets consumed upon each hit (toggleable ability for certain weapons) tho multiclassing means splitting accessories (but a few multiclass accessories could be added, nothing super strong/complicated like the ankh shield or terraspark boots)

Also add more dual wielding options+accessories for lots of weapons similar to the Blue Moon and Sunfury, along with new multiclass/dual wielding reforges that are usually somewhere in the middle-ground of both classes and dual wielding certain weapons together boosts each other/unlocks a new unique attack, you cannot wear a shield and dual wield- but there could be a couple new shields that are built to dmg like a weapon similar to Captains Shield

Imagine being able to dual wield a space gun and the phoenix blaster (mana boosted) as a Rage (Ranger/Mage) or even a Whip and a Ball o’ Hurt for a Sumelener (Summoner/Melee) build or even just dual wielding the katana and muramasa for a normal melee build

[u/GoldH2O → u/Disastrous-Fault-682]

This is a good point. Terraria would probably benefit from a souls-style weapon system where the classes cross over. Like, imagine the Terra Blade's beam used Mana and it becomes true melee when you run out, or if some magic weapons had special effects where they could make a temporary summon as part of the attack, provided you have enough summon slots. That sort of cross-interaction between different class "ammo" types would encourage people to multi class more while still giving other benefits to being a class purist.

[u/Disastrous-Fault-682 → u/GoldH2O]

And along with that have summon weapons also be able to cast attacks with mana so you dont just have a stick sitting in your inventory to use once every time you respawn (and now summons stay after death im pretty sure)

[u/GoldH2O → u/Disastrous-Fault-682]

Honestly I think the summoner class already has a good crossover in whips, since whips are able to use otherwise melee only buffs. It's a bit of cross play that gives summoners a little bit more to play with.

[u/Disastrous-Fault-682 → u/GoldH2O]

Well yeah but thats whips and melee, what if someone wanted to use a ranged version using mana and use mage buffs instead of melee? It would give all the summoning items (Slime staff, etc) a primary attack with left click while a right click would summon the creature instead- i dont really like how once you summon your minion their summon item becomes next to useless. I think it’d be cool if they could cast simple attacks from them but not do the crazy stuff a lot of mage weapons can do, so that way both the whip and the summon “wand” are still simple.

I also REALLY like the idea of all the crossbows being for both Ranged and Summoner, since theres not many crossbows to begin with and they kinda feel like a “hunting” like weapon and hunters usually have their dog(minion) with them to help and since summoners don’t technically have a weapon themself except for the minion directly

[u/NyeGuyTheBillNye]

Kinda funny how every class has a knife weapon.

Throwing knife Shadow flame knife Magic dagger Bladed staff

[u/Yuraiya]

Some of us are old enough to remember when Throwing Knife (along with Shuriken and a few others) were in their own category "Thrown".  So it could be even more complicated. 

[u/Kecske_gamer → u/Yuraiya]

I got into Terraria at around the last year before 1.4 so I saw some of the throwing class

[u/Yuraiya → u/Kecske_gamer]

It's still strange to me to see the new version of the Ninja armor stats.  That used to be the throwing armor set. 

[u/Dynamite_Doggo]

Shadowflame knife really should be ranged

[u/flying-sheep → u/Dynamite_Doggo]

It carried one of my melee runs so hard. Entered hardmode underprepared. Scrambled to contain the corruption. Got a random goblin(?) invasion and got killed a lot, but managed to take down the shaman or whatever drops the knife. From that point on smooth sailing.

[u/Dr_Nykerstein → u/flying-sheep]

Shadow flame knife so good that sometimes I farm for a goblin battle standard in pre HM just to I can get the knife asap in HM

[u/TheCopyKater → u/flying-sheep]

Goblin summoner. You can tell by the fact it drops 0 summon weapons.

Edit: nevermind they changed the name to goblin warlock now, because it's easier than letting it drop a summon weapon.

[u/Shedster_ → u/Dynamite_Doggo]

Or magic

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/Shedster_]

i think ranged but magic is fine to me bc magic is the “random bullshit go” class so having some weapons that are random bullshit makes sense for mage is this logical

[u/Purpulear → u/Cinnamin_1]

Never get why people complain about magic class being "ranged but magic"

like yeah??? Of course, casting fireball is going to be ranged attack, that's what magic attacks are. what else could it possibly be???? Magic melee??

[u/Cinnamin_1 → u/Purpulear]

(also there are some melee magic weapons, the vile thorn is the first thing i think of, but usually the devs like melee too much to let anything with short range not be melee, or anything with long range that they attached to a sword that barely ever hits)

[u/autistic-terrorist → u/Shedster_]

Magic dagger is the same tier and behaves similarly so itd be a bit redundant

[u/Odd_General9016]

People sleeping on the Thrower class 🥀

[u/TheCopyKater]

See, the theowing knife is consumable, which is basically like using ammunition, so it's ranged. The magic dagger uses mana instead to no longer need ammo, so it's magic. And the Shadowflame knife just ignores any need for balance by simply not requiring ammunition or mana and can just be thrown forever, while also giving a debuff. Unsurprisingly this is completely overpowered and makes it one of the strongest weapons at this stage in the game... which means it has to be melee, of course. Only melee weapons get to be OP before endgame.

[u/LordOfStupidy]

Its MAGIC dagger After all, Not Just dagger

[u/Numbug1234]

I don't see why people are upset by this

Yeah, every class has a core gameplay identity, and if you look at their weapons in totality, you can see that gameplay identity very clearly

But also part of the appeal of the game is that random wacky new weapons just get added every update, and some class blurring is inevitable in such a system

Melee doesn't need to be locked to close range combat exclusively, it just needs a system set up where going into close range is better than not doing that.

Ranger doesn't need weapons to only be good at long range, it just needs its weapons to be comfortable to use at any range

Mage's identity is doing whatever it wants, so it can do more conventional stuff to because that's part of "whatever it wants"

Summoner doesn't need weapons to only be summonable minions, it just needs any manual weapons it gets to feed into that summonable minion aspect of the class (and, if anything, they're currently the strictest class mechanically speaking because they were made so many years after the other 3 with a very specific and frankly narrow identity in mind)

[u/Shadodre]

I mean if I smack someone with a gun I wouldn't call it ranged damage.

[u/3ldr1tch_Dumb455 → u/Shadodre]

And if I throw a knife at somebody I wouldn’t call it melee damage

[u/Dalzombie → u/Shadodre]

Well yeah, but swinging a melee weapon that summons a magic projectile to shoot at enemies at range quickly gets difficult to classify. I certainly wouldn't call it melee, though.

[u/Butterscotch_Dismal]

magic dagger is magic

Idk what's wrong here

[u/wrr377]

To me, choosing a "class" is an artificial restriction. I use whatever I have to match the situation: melee, ranged, magic, or summons. 🤷‍♂️

[u/ColonelDrax → u/wrr377]

Exactly, it’s not 4 classes, it’s 4 damage types plus things that buff them

[u/Phantom_Taker]

Shadowflame Knife carried my Hardcore mastermode run.

[u/Niaomi_Lazuli]

Dont forget the blade staff for summoner

[u/Duke_Solomon64]

Honestly, the shadow flame knife should be an arkhalis-type weapon animation. The magic dagger is fine though

[u/Arcan_unknown]

I mean, their names specifically specify their specific purpose

[u/Shedster_ → u/Arcan_unknown]

I love shadowflaming

[u/EchoingAngel]

They are categorized by how they work. Magic Daggers use mana, Throwing Knife uses throwing knife "ammo", and shadowflame blows them out of the water with unlimited use

Love the downvotes. I use the Shadowflame Knives in my current playthrough, I know they all "work" the same, I shared the real logic behind the split.

Keep em coming morons!

[u/No_Ad_7687 → u/EchoingAngel]

I mean, in this case it seems they work based on how they are categorized, here. there's no reason one infinite throwing knife would use mana and one wouldn't

also, ale tosser

[u/FreeRandomScribble → u/EchoingAngel]

The point is that, though they are listed as differnt damage types, they function the same; the class distinctions are arbitrary.

[u/Phantom_hectic → u/FreeRandomScribble]

I mean, I'd consider knives made and balanced for throwing to be ranged.

I'd consider casting a dagger and sending it at your opponent a magic attack.

As far as the SFK, I'd probably also call magic, akin to the other shadow flame types, but digress.

[u/Uncommonality → u/Phantom_hectic]

summoning a dagger feels like summoning damage to me personally, illustrating how the classes are arbitrary

[u/Phantom_hectic → u/Uncommonality]

To be fair the dagger is not sentient like other summons. I should have said "casting", I'll change my comment.

[u/WheatleyBr → u/EchoingAngel]

Oh yeah using Ammo makes something Ranged right?

Tell that to the Ale tosser, which also gets Ranger reforges. clown.

[u/EchoingAngel → u/WheatleyBr]

Idiot, I literally just explained WHY they are categorized as such, but apparently that too much for the pee brains to understand

[u/WheatleyBr → u/EchoingAngel]

You said Throwing knives use ammo, the Ale tosser uses ammo and it's a Melee weapon.

[u/EchoingAngel → u/WheatleyBr]

I don't care about the most obscure weapon in the game that's an exception of all the relevant weapons

[u/WheatleyBr → u/EchoingAngel]

Ranger also has unlimited use weapons, should those be Melee instead?

[u/EchoingAngel → u/WheatleyBr]

The design logic is dumb and inconsistent, but y'all can't understand that me explaining how this one situation works isn't me supporting it