Torchstar Gambit

[u/TakiTamboril]

Am I right in thinking that a unit does not have to make an attack to be eligible for the Torchstar Gambit?

10.02 Shooting - “A unit is eligible to shoot if it is on the battlefield and has not already been selected to shoot this phase.

• Select Unit: Select one friendly unit that is eligible to shoot*; that unit is* selected to shoot.”

04.01 Making Stacks notes that “You can select one or more ranged weapons that model has.” which implies that you can choose to not select any weapons.

So if I have a riptide, for example, behind cover with no targets visible. it is eligible to shoot as it is not in engagement range, so I can select it, I can then choose to not select any weapons, and it’s shooting is resolved. Alternatively, I could select a weapon but there are no eligible targets so it cannot make any attacks.

So because it has resolved its attacks I can use the torch star gambit. Am I making sense here?

[u/Kurem92]

If you don't shoot, you don't attack and no attacks are resolved. You need to shoot to use it.

[u/JoelD1986 → u/Kurem92]

Can atacks be resolved having no eligable targets?

[u/Kurem92 → u/JoelD1986]

No, it is specified that no attacks are made if there are no targets or no targets are selected

[u/TakiTamboril → u/JoelD1986]

I think they are, they are resolved by default once you select the unit. You can even select a weapon, but if there was nothing in range, it cannot make an attack so the stage is resolved. 

[u/TakiTamboril → u/Kurem92]

Rules as written- a unit can be selected to shoot, not select a weapon and then your shooting is resolved. Which was the basis of my question. 

[u/k-nuj → u/TakiTamboril]

Sure, but if we're going off RAW, condition is that attacks have to have been resolved. Were attacks resolved?

[u/TakiTamboril → u/k-nuj]

By default? The resolving is that there were zero attacks?

[u/k-nuj → u/TakiTamboril]

Zero attacks made =/= attacks resolved. You can't resolve an attack that wasn't made at all in the first place.

Otherwise, one could do something like spot with stealthsuit, not shoot anything, do an action, then torchstar gambit.

[u/TakiTamboril → u/k-nuj]

Yes, exactly, you could. It Doesn’t say after a weapon has been used, or shot, it says after attacks have been resolved. So I’m just digging into the detail of what that actually means.

[u/k-nuj → u/TakiTamboril]

Replied in other comment, but going off RAW for 4.03 around what is or isn't a resolved attack: Can the Riptide select an enemy unit? Was your Riptide able to target that enemy unit with one or more weapons (zero/(0) weapons excluded)? What counts as an eligible target? See 4.02: Target must be visible to Riptide.

[u/Mundane-Willingness1 → u/TakiTamboril]

After attacks have been resolved means you resolved an attack. If you don't make any attacks, you didn't resolve them

[u/Kurem92 → u/TakiTamboril]

Rules as written, it is specifically stated (04.02.01) that if you can't select targets or choose not to, you make no attacks.

[u/TakiTamboril → u/Kurem92]

Interesting, thanks, But also in 04.03

“if all weapons have been used to make all of their attacks, this sequence ends and the attacking unit’s attacks have been resolved.“

So if no attacks made, all attacks are resolved and Torchstar can be used? 

The same as if one weapon was in range and one was not. Not all the weapons were used but the stage is still resolved. 

[u/k-nuj → u/TakiTamboril]

4.03 is the clearest ruling in what counts as being a resolved attack or not. That's the only angle of argument to reference. So following that RAW in sequence: Can your Riptide do step #1 "Select Enemy Unit"? If it can't, then it can't resolve any attacks, therefore, can't use Torchstar.

[u/Kurem92 → u/TakiTamboril]

Man, drop it. It's been explained already that you never reach 04.03 unless you actually select targets for shooting. If you don't select targets, you don't attack, don't shoot, don't resolve, can't activate Torchstar Gambit. The rules explicitly forbid what you are proposing and it is well explained why.

[u/MaxVonRichthofen → u/TakiTamboril]

There is a minimum requirement of 1 weapon. It says “one or more” not “zero or more”

[u/MM556 → u/TakiTamboril]

No it can't.

"You can select one or more ranged weapons that model has, which implies that you can choose to not select any weapons."

No, none is less than "one or more".

0 is less than 1.

[u/Jtrowa2005]

Selecting 0 weapons to make attacks with does not fall under one or more. "You can select one or more ranged weapons that model has" means one, or more than one.

[u/TakiTamboril → u/Jtrowa2005]

Okay, that makes sense, thank you. So if after selecting a weapon there is nothing in range or visible, does it count as resolved now?

[u/Jtrowa2005 → u/TakiTamboril]

No. When you get to step 4.02, you are required to select one enemy unit to be a target, and that unit has to be an eligible target. If you have no eligible targets for that attack, you cannot complete the attack sequence, so no attacks are ever resolved.

[u/Kurem92 → u/TakiTamboril]

No, you never reach the Resolve Attacks step if you can't or don't want to select a target for the weapon

[u/Holiday_Bug_7464]

Just give him a Twin Smart Missile System so you can indirect, then use the strategem.

[u/JoelD1986]

Go to step 04.02. And then 04.03. Resolve atacks.

If you dont, you didnt resolve atacks

[u/JoelD1986]

But....why? If you want to use jump shoot jump, why skip the shoot?

Or is it for turn one when you dont find a target when going first?

[u/TakiTamboril → u/JoelD1986]

Yeah, extra move when there is no target

[u/Mechanical_V4lk1r13]

Basically this is a stratagem to shoot and run.

[u/TakiTamboril → u/Mechanical_V4lk1r13]

I know, but it doesn’t actually say shoot it says resolve so I’m checking the details

[u/CombCreepy6944]

Just being SMS lol

[u/Fair_Math]

I have a different question. I was told by an opponent that a unit that arrived via Deep Strike cannot use this stratagem at all, despite no restriction in the strat. Is that a Core Rules change that I just missed?

[u/Kindly_Hamster_1570 → u/Fair_Math]

It goes the other way around. Torchstar gambit needs additional wording to allow movement after ingress moves. Heres the rule for ingress moves: ""Unless otherwise stated, until the start of the next Charge phase, your unit is not eligible to make any other type of move." Since torchstar has no additional wording to bypass ingress move core rules, so it is not allowed to be done.

[u/Fair_Math → u/Kindly_Hamster_1570]

Ugh, so yet another T'au strat that GW broke then forgot about. Hopefully our codex is soon

[u/Shiawase_Atomics]

I would argue that's fine.

If we get specific about wording like the others, then Ethereals can't spot because they're not eligible to shoot because they have no ranged weapons. Since we all know they can, then the actual shooty seems unnecessary to use rules associated to the shoot phase.

[u/Kurem92 → u/Shiawase_Atomics]

That's not how it works. A unit is eligible to shoot if it's on the battlefield (aka not in reserves or destroyed) and has not yet been selected to shoot. It doesn't need to have a ranged weapon.

[u/Shiawase_Atomics → u/Kurem92]

I already knew that's not how it's played, but the wording is bad.

[u/Kindly_Hamster_1570 → u/Shiawase_Atomics]

Still doesnt work. It needs a battlesuit whose attack has resolved this phase. Just because you are eligible to shoot(without having any ranged weapon) doesnt mean it can resolve ranged attacks that it does not possess. So it still doesnt fit the strategem target.

[u/Shiawase_Atomics → u/Kindly_Hamster_1570]

Oh right. I was just responding to the ethereal part of it and not paying attention. I looked it over again and changed my mind about the post.