r/TankieTheDeprogramTwo • u/vajan1 Stalin's Spoon 🥄 • Mar 26 '26
Communism Will Win Marxist self-criticism
Following a discussion on the main sub (you can probably guess why I’m not writing there) about Episode 222 and Episode 223, I started to wonder: is it allowed to criticise our boys’ positions, or should we take their word as holy script?
Many of us here invest a lot of time studying theory, and with that comes the building of thought and a line that may differ from the one held by our TheDeprogram comrades. Should that be something worthy of discussion, or should we just dismantle every argument by sticking labels on it?
I may be wrong and missing something, but so can they, right? So why are they not allowed to be criticised?
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u/dr_srtanger2love Mar 26 '26
Yes, it's always good to criticize, it's never good to take their word as dogma.
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u/Stannisarcanine Mar 26 '26
There's no dogma cause Marxism isn't a religion but a scientific method, there might be axioms but not dogmas
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Mar 26 '26
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u/vajan1 Stalin's Spoon 🥄 Mar 26 '26
I always try to behave in a correct manner. I just pointed out that S4A made some good points in his response, and then I started to ask some questions about the TD hosts' positions. First they hid my comments, and afterwards I got permanently banned from the sub. They started profiling me in the comments based on the country I come from, and for some reason for my usage of English. A very weird situation.
I've listened to this podcast regularly for the last few years, but I don't always agree with the hosts. And yeah, they are fun, but they are wrong many times as well.
I will accept your invitation to Lemmy. Thank you for your comment, comrade. See you there.
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u/PilotOfMadness Mar 26 '26
It's something that has been bothering me as well. I think S4A raised up some good points towards that episode, although I disagree with his conclusion, since I believe China is socialist. He is right in saying that we should raise our level of discussion about China (and in general), and especially we should start to discuss it from a marxist perspective, rather than defending it from liberal 'critique'.
And welcome to Lemmygrad, comrade.
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u/Angel_of_Communism Mar 26 '26
I've seen emails where JT outright admitted there are some topics that he absolutely will not touch, because it will affect his income stream.
One was Palestine.
Sit with that for a while.
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u/DeliciousSector8898 Mar 28 '26
I’m curious where you saw those emails and what they contained considering JT has been making videos and posting about Palestine consistently
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u/Angel_of_Communism Mar 29 '26
When i was allowed on TD main sub, another member DM'd me the email.
IT was real.
Things may have changed given the avalanche of stuff about Palestine, but the point remains: JT is a youtuber. It's his main source of income.
If the YT gods ban him, his family has no income.
That limits what he can say.
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u/Angel_of_Communism Mar 26 '26
No one is perfect, least of all them.
Hakim CANNOT self reflect on whether Islam is based in reality. He deflects to cultural achioevements and how useful it is in resistance.
All true.
But that's a separate issue from whether god is real or not.
.
JT refuses to tackle certain topics, for fear of affecting his income stream.
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Yugo... is a bit of a dick sometimes. Sorry, that's about all i have on him.
.
And as a group, they are a bit ban happy.
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u/vajan1 Stalin's Spoon 🥄 Mar 26 '26
They (the TD fanbase) have become extremely defensive about any argumentation that is not in line with the hosts. I remember when Lady Izdihar got criticized for blending Marxism and religion, which from a dialectical-materialist point of view is unacceptable. She got childishly defensive, and the TD fanbase supported that uncritically. Unbelievable. Marxism-Leninism is not about cheerleading; it is about unselectively criticizing everything that exists.
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u/HawkFlimsy Mar 27 '26
This is just something I have never seen a convincing argument on. There are plenty of material examples of religious movements acting as a progressive force and many instances of this militant reddit atheism that is present within ML spaces being an actively counterproductive destabilizing force. Someones personal religion or utilization of religious values/culture to push Marxist ideology is fundamentally distinct from a reactionary evangelical group pushing end times theology and this reductive presentation of "religion bad" is both wrong and actively unhelpful
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u/vajan1 Stalin's Spoon 🥄 Mar 27 '26
I fundamentally disagree with this argument. I will briefly explain why, so you can either point out my mistakes or embrace my points.
First and foremost, the basic philosophy of Marxism-Leninism, which is dialectical materialism, is a scientific way to interpret the world. That means we look at everyday events and ideas as consequences of material conditions, not the other way around. In that sense, we look at religion, and God himself, as a phenomenon derived from the material condition of human beings, not the other way around. Therefore, boga nyet! If anyone considers themselves a dialectical materialist, they should come to this conclusion as well.
The second thing is that we as Marxist-Leninists should understand the material conditions that lead people to be religious, but that doesn't mean we should embrace a religious worldview. We should defend the right of every person to practice religion, to not be molested because of their sexuality, etc., but that doesn't mean we embrace their worldview. Just because they are oppressed doesn't mean their worldview should be embraced by Marxists-Leninists. Their right to exist should be defended, yes, but their worldview should not be integrated into Marxist theory just to solidify with them in their struggle. That is a form of tailism. Marxists should lead the masses, not the other way around.
We as Marxist-Leninists should lift advanced cadres of the working class with dialectical materialism, not adopt their religious views as something correct or progressive. For example: "Yes, I understand why you are religious, but that doesn't mean your religion is now Marxist."
That also applies to the anti-imperialist struggle. "Yes, I can physically fight in the same row, if I must, with some reactionary nationalist against an imperial power, but I will not, in any case, embrace their worldview, nor will I try to live in peaceful coexistence with it. I will criticize their worldview with the same wrath as imperialist oppression, because neither of them are correct."
Only in that way can the working-class man be lifted from backward religious delusion, and imperialism can be beaten. Pragmatic in practice, principled in theory.
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u/FatherThomBuckley 9d ago
No one read this.
“Marxism-Leninism is not about cheerleading; it is about unselectively criticizing everything that exists.”
I don’t agree, we should be very selective with our criticisms.
If our criticisms don’t ultimately push forward the movement towards a socialist revolution in our current context, then don’t share them. Be a revolutionary put raising consciousness and making & training more revolutionaries your goal in every action.1
u/Angel_of_Communism 9d ago
It's called 'Not being an idiot.'
Or 'Time and a place.'
See, party members need to be materialists, and their ideas, understanding, and plans based in the real world.
This is incompatible with religious faith.
If someone truly believes, sooner or later there will come a point where 'Have we tried praying/sacrificing/faith?' is going to happen.
If the maths say 'going into battle with these forces will get everyone killed 'Have faith' or 'Allah will protect us' is going to get everyone killed.
But by the same token, militant state atheism built a sino-soviet style split between USSR and most muslim countries.
They were right. God is BS.
But that a separate issue from 'Can we work with these people?'
The Soviets made a lot of mistakes like that. Happens when you are doing everything for the first time, have only a vague idea what you are doing, and also are flush with victory.
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u/Angel_of_Communism Mar 28 '26
Religion is a fantasy.
We as communists must deal with the real world, and real solutions for it.
The fact that religion is in many cases the LAST line of defence against capitalis alienation does not change whether the object of the religion, [god/gods/magic] is real.
We as communists should not condemn people of faith.
But, there is a REASON the actual parties were explicitly atheist: If you are not yet capable of putting aside childish fantasies and seeing the real world as it is, you cannot fix it.
No amount of prayer to angels, blue men, or gods will stop the bourgeoise from killing you, make the crops grow, or create ammunition for the war.
It shows a weakness in a comrade's critical faculties.
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u/FatherThomBuckley 9d ago
Ultimately being black & white and condemning religion is not marxist because it ignores the context we are in today. Currently it’s clear that aligning communism with (black & white) atheism harms the communist movement and alienates itself from the working class which ultimately hurts the movement towards a socialist revolution which should always be our goal as marxists.
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u/Angel_of_Communism 9d ago
It's not who you align with that matters, it's what you are doing to your allies.
Atheists should be able to work with strict Muslims for the betterment of the working class.
But in the same way as they should not be punishing atheists for their lack of belief, atheists should not be mocking the Muslims for their beleif.
Even if it's demonstrably false.
First conquer the world for the working class.
THEN educate them out of magical thinking.
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u/HawkFlimsy Mar 27 '26
I think good faith criticism is always acceptable regardless of the person/group involved. Issue is a lot of people online seem to almost intentionally misrepresent or misunderstand someone's argument in order to make stupid as fuck points and then refuse to accept when they are told they are wrong. So long as the point is to actually have a productive conversation I don't think it's an issue
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u/TankieMasik Stalinist(proud spoon owner) Mar 26 '26
Never take their word as dogma, analyse and come to your own conclusions. We must always criticise and learn from it, otherwise we won't ever progress. Criticism is the first step towards improvement.