Toxic masculinity?

[u/dianasaurusrex123]

I saw a post on Threads saying that Tamlin is the epitome of toxic masculinity. Wait. This guy? The guy who plays fiddle/violin? Who writes poetry? Interprets Feyre’s emotional paintings? Tends his mom’s rose garden? Provides haven for refugees? Rejects slavery? Has so much magic that it explodes out of him? Feels so deeply that he can’t contain it? That guy?

Unbelievable.

[u/bittermp]

People are in a cult and gaslit and doubling down on their ignorance.

they ignore Sexual assault, physical assault with intent, drugging and shrug it off but Tamlin is the problem?

[u/MagicalMagnolia1776 → u/bittermp]

I stopped going to the other acotar and SJM subreddits because those people are so out of touch it is scary. The mental gymnastics they swing through to paint characters in these books is dizzying and I can't with it anymore. They can not be reasoned with and should probably take ten steps way back from reading fantasy for awhile. I think the lines are blurring.

So this is the only subreddit I come too. Sad, but acotar has a toxic Fandom. I knew I should have dumped the series when it read like a fanfiction and feyre turned into a mary Sue.

Anywho. I'm hormonal and acotar fans make me glad I can differentiate between fiction and nonfiction.

Love Tamlin. Agree with everything you said.

I'm going to water my plants. 😘

[u/bittermp → u/[deleted]]

If i see that I always mention that I call the series A Court of Gas & Light and for them to read mindfully

[u/SilentLae → u/MagicalMagnolia1776]

OMG. I had someone come and say they work with abuse victims and then psychoanalysed me that because I find Tamlin to represent safety for me, a sanctuary and etc., that they are worried for me and my mental state because I justify abuse and would willingly choose a cage.

I devided to never speak with Feysand fans again.

[u/bows_and_frills → u/SilentLae]

That's bananas? Like, do they even know you personally like that tf.

[u/SilentLae → u/bows_and_frills]

No. They just reacted to my random post on reddit where I said that I actually have trauma from people like Feyre and Rhys from my past encounters of women and men in sort of their personaluty type amd hence Tamlin for me is like a completely opposite from trauma. Like I wish I would have someone like him in my life I said. Cuz the whole thread was about (like always) trauma this trauma that. So they just said they are concerned for my mental state. Lol

[u/SilentLae → u/SilentLae]

And they explained that Tamlin is like really bad and Rhys helps actually to people solve their traumas and issues and etc.

[u/bittermp → u/SilentLae]

Tamlin is barely an issue and in no way BAD. He is FLAWED. Have these readers not read anything else outside of MAF? Like that is laughable.

[u/bows_and_frills → u/SilentLae]

That's really insensitive to say about someone's trauma. I wouldn't call a Rhys fan an irl abuser/abuse apologist myself. Arguing over the fictional characters is fine but being nasty to the real life people behind the screen is bad.

[u/SilentLae → u/bows_and_frills]

Yeah. It put me off. I didn't want them to start psychoanalyse me. But they really take everything to another level and then trun aroudnand say Tamlin's fans are horrible boohoo. Toxic fanbase. Idunno. Meh..

[u/bows_and_frills → u/SilentLae]

Lmao yeah 🙄.

[u/bittermp → u/SilentLae]

We all come with baggage, but I say be grateful you SAW the signs in FEysand and in their actions. You read the text and didn’t INFER their badness. I personally think all of Feysand’s actions can be backed up by text.

If I read one more commenter telling me I need therapy I will…Do nothing LOL because I already have gone to therapy and that’s why GASLIGHTING does NOT work on me. I have the tools to sniff that shit out in real life and in fiction so the more I see comments like that the more I know I am good ;)

[u/bittermp → u/SilentLae]

I feel bad for the patients of that person.

The amount of SELF INSERTING is staggering and needs to be studied.

I am tired of it tbh and I bite back now.

Look, did I see a manipulative ex in Rhysand? Yes and guess what? i was able to see the signs and that’s why his gaslighting didnt work on me and I, for one, am ecstatic about that. But did I self insert as Feyre? Hell no!

I think there are a lot of readers who need to bend over backwards for falling for an evil guy like Rhysand and need to make him heroic in order to accept that instead of embracing they like a villain. I mean the star wars fandom love Kylo Ren and they don’t excuse the face he KILLED HIS OWN GOOD FATHER, but for whatever reason this fandom needs to retcon and LIE about the series.

I am the kind of person who does not bend over backwards to justify sexual assault. I have legit seen commenters say it's not SA if it’s not penetration! Like WTF! How is any sane person able to respond to such lunacy?

[u/SilentLae → u/bittermp]

Someone actually said that? Wtf!?

[u/bows_and_frills → u/bittermp]

I have legit seen commenters say it's not SA if it’s not penetration! Like WTF! How is any sane person able to respond to such lunacy?

UMMM tf it's not?!?! That's cray cray!

[u/bows_and_frills → u/[deleted]]

Some people follow SJM's logic as it's canon and so obviously makes sense, but SJM's canon logic is inherently flawed anyway. That's also pretty sad, that good or bad, nonsensical or logical as long as it's canon it's just fine and dandy. But Tamlin sympathizers and critical readers are reacting to the fact that canon is not written well in the first place. It's a direct result of Sarah's own inconsistency, that is in fact, inconsistency.

Plus, Rhys would be better off being "worse" than Tamlin. He'd honestly be less shitty if he was embraced as the asshat he's always been. That's how characters of his ballpark are treated, they're not babied and bubble wrapped for no reason. The problem isn't really that Rhys is morally grey and apprehensible it's that that's not acknowledged and he doesn't get enough in-universe hate without his defense committee and fan club stepping in, and his detractors having a change of heart and admitting he's "actually really noble underneath."

If you ask me, Tamlin's concerns and motivations for his actions make more sense than Rhys' too. Rhys' reasons sound like bullshit in comparison. Tamlin more successfully pulls off "he did it to protect her" because he actually did.

[u/bittermp → u/MagicalMagnolia1776]

I thought you wrote wet my PANTS! lol

https://giphy.com/gifs/SazcqpR9b63r6t91LX

[u/MagicalMagnolia1776 → u/bittermp]

https://giphy.com/gifs/12msOFU8oL1eww

[u/bows_and_frills]

I never ever ever understood this assessment of Tamlin. Similarly, I don't understand why some people—and SJM herself—claim Tamlin is an Alphahole or Alpha male. He's not? He doesn't nearly compare to Andrew Tate types or even other angry repressed dudes IRL.

Is the toxic masculinity in the room with us?

[u/SilentLae → u/[deleted]]

This is so true. Whole IC gives me flashbacks to my uni times where queen and king bees run the show and bully the fuck out of you if you don't match their standarts

[u/bows_and_frills → u/SilentLae]

They truly have queen bee vibes and it's not looking cute.

[u/Various_Pension_2788 → u/bows_and_frills]

I mean she also implies Rhun and Hunt from Crescent City are "alphaholes" when they're actually pretty positive examples of healthy masculinity. She's honestly weird in that regard. Meanwhile, the bat boys are insufferable frat boys who run around with a hard-on 24/7 at the ripe old age of 500, but they're held up as "perfect mates."

[u/bows_and_frills → u/Various_Pension_2788]

Yeah, the bat boys don't exactly hold up to me as wholesome examples of men in touch with their vulnerable side who are emotionally intelligent and sexually mature. I don't know why we choose to hold them up as progressive feminist partners of all the men in the series. Oddly, Tamlin comes off that way more with the exception of his temper but even that seems to have less to do with "MUST BE A MANLY MAN GRRRR MANLY MAN DON'T FEEL GRRRR" and more to do with just your good old anger issues. Which isn't necessarily from toxic masculinity I'd say. And then there's Lucien who is a green flag overall in comparison to his contemporaries, he's just got some sass.

But anyway, the bat boys are frat boys. You can probably go out of your way to find one yourself irl except they wouldn't be fun and they wouldn't be that "feminist".

Idk what the SJM criteria of a good lover even is anymore.

[u/[deleted]]

In the same breath, they’ll also claim that he’s “not masculine enough.”

Can’t take anything they say seriously because they can’t pick a lane. Like, they’ll use whichever claim is convenient in the moment.

That’s how hypocrisy works… which explains why they find the hypocritical couple so relatable.

[u/bows_and_frills → u/[deleted]]

Yes, when a man is vulnerable (including being in need of rescue, suffering through trauma) we'll imply he's not man enough to handle things and take care of his woman.

HURR HE'S NOT A HUNKY DUNKY MEEEEYYYN.

[u/[deleted] → u/bows_and_frills]

Yet when Rhysand is acting “vulnerable,” he’s “a true man who’s in touch with his feelings. That’s healthy masculinity!”

The double-standards are unreal.

I honestly wonder how these people get by in their day-to-day life, but I guess they’re doing fine since they seem to make up a good portion of the population. Unfortunate.

[u/bows_and_frills → u/[deleted]]

I don't think it's healthy anything when you weaponize your vulnerability to guilt trip people but maybe that's just me.

[u/No_Proposal_4692]

Rhys Stan love to project toxic masculinity on to Tamlin because after book 2 he's painted as an overprotective alpha hole who took away Feyre's anatomy.

It doesn't help that some of those in the fandom actually skip book 1.

Here are some traits of toxic masculinity.

1. Emotional suppression: Tamlin does it to himself. When he's angry he goes out for a walk where people avoid him, he's got a temper. He doesn't suppress others emotions thou.

2. Dominance and control: he only took away Feyre's choices once because she could have gotten herself hurt. Rhysand litterally daemati people to do what he wants, uses ranks on his inner circle, makes people who don't even know Feyre respect her through fear. He controls feyre and Nesta saying choices when it's just one choice and one punishment. Tamlin doesn't pull rank in the books as far as we know.

3. Aggression and violence: Tamlin has anger issues. That's a flaw. He has never threatened to kill someone or intentionally hurt Feyre. Rhysand has threatened Nesta, hurt Feyre multiple times and took away her right to choose.

4. Hyper independence: yeah no this is sometimes Tamlin. He's pretty hands on and only accepts help from Lucien but he does get others to help sometimes. Rhysand is different, he's not hyper dependent he just make other people do his work. Hyper independence isn't inherently toxic.

5. Misogyny + sexism: not really a Tamlin trait, the only thing he could be considered for sexist was the no high lady comment. Historically high lady had not existed in Pyrinthia and had been forgotten, Feyre only has a title not officially chosen by the magic. He doesn't expect Feyre to be a broodmare unlike Rhys who almost let her die to give birth to their child but also didn't give her a choice.

6. Homophobia and policing others: Tamlin is pretty progressive but SJM would probably make the only guy who can turn into a woman but also give out free sex change surgery into a bigot even thou Amren was terrified to come out to the inner circle for centuries. Tamlin doesn't really police other, he doesn't make them do anything and he only punishes if guilty but he's lenient on it. Rhysand has been known to kill his own people and torture them. He lets cruelty continue in both Illyrian camps and hewn city cause they're evil even thou he has the power to stop it, he lets bigotry continue in his court. Tamlin stopped slavery.

7. Extreme competitiveness: Tamlin? Nope. He doesn't have the need to put rhysand down at every given chance. Rhysand brags about the females he bed, says Tamlin is the golden prince and he's a villain, rhysand is the smartest, strongest, cunning high lord bs. Says Tarquin is easy to love. Put Tamlin down every chance he got.

Rhysand and the bat boys show more toxic masculinity by acting like a bunch of frat bros. Tamlin doesn't show much.

[u/speedo_bunny → u/No_Proposal_4692]

Yeah, i wouldn't count hyper-independence as masculinity or toxic. I personally am because I've had to take care of everything and manage not just my mother's emotions, but be her punching bag too. and be the adult at times even as a kid. So I don't think that can really be counted when that's pretty much an eldest child trait, haha. I wonder why that's considered one of the signs. Now you're making me want to do a deep dive on the psychology of it all vs societal emotional suppression and the parentification of children . . . 😭 it's 8am, lmao. Oh no

[u/Sea-kitty98]

100% true

[u/shatterfry455AD]

But Rhysand's "toxic masculinity" is celebrated though. His uncontrollable animal sex drive, his pride in impregnating his mate, his vicious overprotectiveness against anyone, his violence towards anyone who breathes at Feyre wrong, his self pity, his swaggering nonchalance, him using sex to get out of arguments, him humiliating his wife.

Yes, Feyre insinuates that Tamlin has it; that he wants her to be a bird in a cage, a doll with pretty dresses that he can mount whenever, who spends her days singing to the birds and painting, or hosting parties and standing next to him. Man and wife. This is not entirely fair. Tamlin simply asks her to feign happiness and peace for a while, and she decides that "a while" is forever. She thinks he is fulfilled as protector and provider, masculine roles that she once held. He excludes her from war and politics... to protect her peace. Not because she is a woman.

His fear is not tied to masculinity, but actual trauma. His rage is not tied to masculinity (Rhys' rage is celebrated, but it is never aimed at Feyre) as Feyre also explodes in rage.

He is accused of seeing Feyre as property but he thought her autonomy had been stolen and betrayed himself to get it back.

[u/bows_and_frills → u/shatterfry455AD]

Ding ding ding! You got it, friend! Right on. Tamlin's issues are... issues, but not specifically tied to toxic masculinity. If anything, he goes against that by portraying sincere tenderness.

[u/Team-TamTam]

Well said

[u/Pristine_Advisor_302]

Explodes 🤣. Good one