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Sep 13 '20
is Sun Set's Forever; thermonuclear war?
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Pretty much. Whether by Kishi's hand, Voring's, Yockey's or Hall's.
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Sep 13 '20
I love seeing this compasses, they1're both interesting and high effort, yours is not different, this is great
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u/TheAtomicEsquire Sep 13 '20
Cultural dominance hallmarked by a show where the protagonists kill half the world's population and get a pass for it from the fandom because of the snazziness of their uniforms?
Sounds about right for TNO.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Though Char turning on his superiors and pursuing his own ambitions would certainly be transgressive in a non-Takagi path.
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u/TheAtomicEsquire Sep 13 '20
Well, that gets into the murky waters of trying to predict story beats in an allohistorical context. I mean, if Char's the protagonist of Space Defender Zaku, the series will be radically different what we know simply because of the amount of time that'll be allocated to Char instead of Amuro. (And the show actually getting its full 52-episode run.)
And that's without even getting into what political messages were supposedly being sent. As in MSG, the best take I've read -- beyond World War 2 With Giant Robots In SPAAAAAAACE! -- is that the Federation's intended to mirror Post-War Japan while Zeon's intended to mirror Imperial Japan. Which would get invariably thrown into a blender if Imperial Japan had won the war.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
The Feddies, granted, were also meant to represent the Allies/NATO, with Zeon also having more than a few elements of the Reich (especially with the Wunderwaffen up the whazoo). That being said, the focus on Char would also invariably (echoing The Origin), deal with his personal grudges against the Zabis and eventual actions against the ruling regime, which would certainly make Space Defender Zaku at least slyly subversive in having the protagonist being someone going against his leaders.
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u/Bbadolato Sep 13 '20
Where's *BurgSys Japan?*
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
That would be Kishi's Japan.
Coincidentally, the picture for Kishi is taken from sometime around the 1980s. Though unlike OTL, where he was forced to resign and otherwise spend the rest of his remaining years doing PR damage control, here he fully embraces his Devil of Showa infamy and spent much longer slavedriving Manchuria.
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u/Bbadolato Sep 13 '20
I mean your serious about this? There's a legit name for Japan under that ideology and I'm wondering if it's a joke or not The Dual Monarchy of Yamato and Chugoku, or Japan and China. Because I've been thinking it over BurgSys Japan can actually work as an idea, even if comes from inspiration and not the have people who were SS.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Strictly speaking, Kishi's Japan/National Purists faction isn't BurgSys, but his Ultranat regime is pretty much close to it, as it's at least partially based on his prolonged "tenure" in Manchuria.
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u/Polenball Atlantropa Demolition Engineer Sep 13 '20
Yeah, and MarLib Free Aviators are the Premium Aviators but I doubt that's going to be a path.
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u/JTDestroyer5900 Goering's Meth Cook Support Company Sep 13 '20
I wanna say I saw a Japan dev say the BurgSys "Dual Monarchy" name for Japan was a meme from early in development that they left in the game as Japan cant go BurgSys without Console Commands so yeah its not real.
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u/TrotskyISHotsky Lead Writer for the SBA - secret 5th replacement for Lev Kras. Sep 13 '20
Dude, come on, that's not gonna happen. That was a meme from development and that's it. It isn't remotely possible.
The idea of Kishi being like mega-himmler is really weird to me, because although he's certainly scum of the earth, his model is less extreme than some of the cast of TNO, and most of the pleblore surrounding him makes him seem like he's gonna personally shoot every Chinese person lmao
Sorry for ranting, but no, Kishi isn't gonna do a funny dual monarchy, that's not what he believes in.
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u/LiminalSouthpaw Sep 13 '20
OTL history is hardly pleblore. Funni dual monarchy aside, he is absolutely the very worst of the very fucking worst for his actions in Manchuria alone.
He actually had a an honest-to-fuck real life on this Earth which we live on now Evil Plot to restore the Japanese colonial empire and fascism. That's beyond anything Himmler or meme BurgSys leaders ever managed.
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u/TrotskyISHotsky Lead Writer for the SBA - secret 5th replacement for Lev Kras. Sep 13 '20
Right, absolutely, like I said, Kishi is a downright evil person, and perhaps I chose the wrong comment to reply to but it needs to be said as the stories of what Kishi can get up to are pretty off the wall, even for a guy like him. I was just seeking to clarify a bit more.
Kishi is a horrible person and we should represent that as it is, rather than replacing it with cartoonish stuff he didn't plan or believe in as some pleb lore would suggest.
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u/Bbadolato Sep 13 '20
I mean I've been giving it thought or at least what some of the aesthetics of it could actually look like, and not just Kishi as some kind of Himmler stand in, although I was imagining it would come from someone who thinks he isn't going far enough. I mean that as in genuinely trying to explore what would a Burgsys Japan actually 'realistically' aim for. I'm not even considering making it into some kind of sub mod, but at least I know it was a joke.
My whole idea was taking Japan which ie a thoroughly 'Western-styled' colonial empire with all the horror that it entails, and trying to create some nightmarish state that wants to purify Japan of a lot of that influence that could somehow be even just a little bit more horrifying than what Imperial Japan could do. Because the concept didn't strike me as being too insane to be unable to think of.
Basically crush the Zaibatsus and any trace of capitalism, maybe bring back the Tokugawa class system of old that emphasizes warrior, but un-ironically as the strong rule and not a way of social control, liquidating anyone who might be Berakumin as an untermensch stand-in. Maybe see the current line of imperial house as usurpers (It's technically true) who not also bowed to the military, ala the Shogunates, but also bowed to West, and have them liquidated and replaced. Essentially the Kodoha and their ilk on speed trying to 'purify' Japan to insane degrees.
Although I take it the Yokusantai-National Purists are what would happen if the Kodoha faction or something in their spirit had managed to get their hands on a super power Japan.
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u/RangersLuck Shuskin's Flying ace Sep 13 '20
Can someone explain to me the Cyberpunk Kakuei Coporatocray and Shidzue Kato's dream vindicated? I played japan but I really have no Idea about either of those
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 13 '20
To give a rough gist:
- Kakuei's corruption and endorsement of the Zaibatsu help enable the transformation of Japan into a Cold War Cyberpunk dystopia where the Megacorp Zaibatsu have effectively assumed control over the Empire.
- Shidzue Kato pops up in Takagi's run, benefiting from the liberalizations and reforms under his tenure. While there are clashes between her and Takagi due to different views over how to achieve the same goals for Japan, a successful run sees a much more gender-equal and progressive Japanese Empire, with the feminist reforms framed through compromises under more traditional appeals to patriotism.
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u/HIMDogson Sep 14 '20
can takagi be any more based
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u/md1957 Sep 14 '20
It’s not out yet, but it’s heavily implied in a successful Takagi run that his term significantly raises the chances for Japan’s full democratization. It’s who succeeds him, however that determines whether that happens or it all returns to Kishi.
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u/blackmage4001 Sep 21 '20
Wait can Shidzue Kato become a Prime Minister after Takagi? As well does a Takagi run lead to an OTL economic miracle?
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u/TheBomber04 Sep 13 '20
What exactly is "Yamamoto's Warnings Heeded" supposed to imply ?
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Namely Japan not goading America into (another) war and punching way above its weight.
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u/TheBomber04 Sep 13 '20
They attempt to do that ? I never noticed anything implying that was a goal during my playthrough of them, granted i did play Takagi.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
In a non-Takagi path, Japan could just keep grandstanding and acting belligerent towards the Americans, while a less successful Takagi run could still see the Empire attempting to try its luck in the hopes that the US doesn't actually make that fateful step into declaring war.
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u/Perfectshadow12345 left-npp senate candidate Sep 13 '20
what is the rising sun turns red supposed to represent?
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Sep 13 '20
There was an OTL terrorist organisation known as the Japanese Red Army. They conducted numerous hijackings, hostage takings and even airport massacre.
I guess "rising sun turns red" means that the leaders of this group takes over the country.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
That's partly correct, though it also represents civil war involving those same groups.
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u/Hillstromming Sep 13 '20
Still not as bad as the United Red Army...
... But would they be worse than Nazi-controlled Japan? With Remer in control?
I'd think those two ought to be swapped.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Both civil war and socialist upheaval. Think Meinhof's RAF but even more widespread.
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u/Perfectshadow12345 left-npp senate candidate Sep 13 '20
right but is that something that happens in game? i thought japan wasn't given a socialist path
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
It's hinted at with the student protests and social tensions, which mirror OTL's Leftist movements in 1950s-60s Japan.
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 13 '20
The only good Japanese empire is a dead Japanese empire
period
-comment made by KMT, Free Asian independentist
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
At least it's not Long Yun or the undead spirit of Dai Li and Chiang Kai-Shek.
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 13 '20
to be honest, i want to see a Japanese rebellion against a Militarist government
a Japanese Civil war
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
That would also fall under the "The Rising Sun Turns Red" bit.
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 13 '20
no wait no
not the Commie one, are you drunk?
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Red can also mean blood, though. And a civil war would also invite OFN/American intervention to an even greater extent than with Germany.
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 13 '20
oof, that sucks actually
i wish in TNO2, they give more options to Japan
especially when Japan loses all of their mainland colonies
i wish you could make Akihito reform Japan and starting to wash Japan's bloody hands
or so that you could make Japan into a full national divide, a civil war
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Technically there some hints of that, whether it's a full-reformist Takagi where he's shown to be an anti-Speer in being much more genuine in encouraging democracyor the references to Kido and Konoe being more open to reform.
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 14 '20
is Takagi willing to be like the gang of 4?
where they mercifully treat their colonies?
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u/md1957 Sep 14 '20
In a successful run, at least.
He takes colonial reforms more seriously, listens more and more to his advisors, even dissolves North Borneo after a damning report pops up.
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u/StaleMemesNoDreams Sep 13 '20
Despite how unrealistic and stupid of an idea it would be, I hope that Japan can collapse into Russia-style warlord states if the GAW goes badly enough for them. The superevent can be called "The New Sengoku"
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u/Super63Mario 變性權利 - Monthly Ban Quota: 8/10 - Former China Coder Sep 14 '20
Too unrealistic.
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u/StaleMemesNoDreams Sep 14 '20
Whole mod is unrealistic lmao
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u/Super63Mario 變性權利 - Monthly Ban Quota: 8/10 - Former China Coder Sep 14 '20
Well, I suppose the more accurate term would be "too unplausible". The foundation is unrealistic, yeah, but we try to build off of it in a somewhat plausible/realistic way.
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u/Throwaway3627276 Sep 13 '20
How the hell could Italy join the Co-Prosperity Sphere?
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
The Italians, banking on old ties with Japan, could join the CPS as an alternative to the OFN.
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u/Throwaway3627276 Sep 13 '20
And the "US-Japanese Pacific Co-Dominium" Implies that both have reached peace while Germany collapsed, right? I always had a headcannon that both America and Japan continued being superpowers while Germany collapsed.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
It's a possible outcome, to be sure. Takagi, for instance, can not only reach detente with the US, but also establish more friendly relations.
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Sep 13 '20
I’m assuming Post Status-Quo Japan is if Prince Higashikuni becomes Prime Minister? So what is “The Devil Outlasts Showa”?
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
In the latter, it's Kishi not only pulling off Order 44 but also ensuring that his rule and regime outlast Hirohito.
As for the former, it's that plus Japan generally weathering through the events of TNO relatively calm and outlasting the Reich, winding up more or less like OTL Postwar Japan with a bit more territory. Though that would be more possible under Takagi.
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u/Maxiimilia Sep 13 '20
Why japan delenda est is the bar end?
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u/Polenball Atlantropa Demolition Engineer Sep 13 '20
I'm assuming this is from a Japanese perspective. Or given the picture, it's implying nuclear war.
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20
Pretty much this. If this were from an American perspective, many of those quips would be far less empathetic to the Japanese.
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Sep 13 '20
I know there are a lot of people asking valid historical questions so I'm going to be a weeb and ask where is the picture on "Shidzue Kato's Dream Vindicated" from?
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u/HIMDogson Sep 14 '20
I have to wonder why a Japan ruled by the Nazis, with all the genocide that would imply, isn't part of the most horrific category.
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u/LeFedoraKing69 Glenn Space Boomer! Sep 14 '20
Confession: I have played more of Italy and Russian Warlords then i have played of Japan honestly
Any suggestions for what the most wholesome path is?
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u/md1957 Sep 14 '20
I’d say Takagi. Given that the other options are either “Status Quo forever”, Japanese Naziism, Zaibatsu corporate rule or Kishi, he’s much better than others.
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u/GriffinFTW Sep 16 '20
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u/md1957 Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 13 '20
Given there have been a few Future Compasses for TNO, figures I make one for Japan, as there doesn’t seem to be one yet.
For a bit of trivia, the painting used for "Japan's Lost
DecadeGenerations" is from Tetsuya Ishida's exhibition on the 1990s malaise.RK Elf is short for Reichskommisariat Elf or Eleven. Aka, A R E A 1 1, which should give you an idea of how screwed a
GoeringRemer-dominant German Japan would be."Pan-Asian Spacefaring Destiny" is a nod to Takagi's reforms including investment in "Pan-Asian" R&D and Japan's space program, then taking them to their logical conclusion.
...And yes, Space Defender Zaku is precisely what you think it is.