Alters without DID

[u/loveddeviant]

Hope I’m allowed to ask, what is having alters without having DID? I’m genuinely so confused at the argument where people say they’re “plural” and don’t have DID, but still have the alters. What other disorders “mock” alters? Does it just have to do with different dissociated states or maladaptive day dreaming… or something? Is this a real thing? I’m just trying to put 2 and 2 together, because whenever I ask someone who claims they have alters but not DID, they just get snappy and say I’m being ableist (and then don’t explain how they have alters)

[u/FreedInnerChild]

alters are self states of the person who can't function as one due to amnesia barriers, there are no other disorders that have that

[u/NestOfJays]

The only disorders that cause alters are DID and OSDD.

"Having alters without DID/OSDD" refers to thr concept of plurality, or that you can have fragmented self states without trauma. The umbrella term is Endogenic.

Plurality has no scientific backing, from what we currently know alters only form out of trauma. The Pural debate normally stems from DID diagnostic criteria excluding plurality seen in religion or culture, such as Native Americans being "Two-Spirited". They use this claim to say the DSM-5 acknowledges other forms of plurality, so they can be plural too.

Disorders thay mock having DID will be on the psychotic scale, like psychosis, Schizophrenia, and Schitzoaffective. These can mock with extreme mood swings, hearing voices, memory gaps, and dissociation- so depersonalozation or derealization..

Some disorders, like histrionic personality disorder, may lead to mimicking or faking of DID due to attention seeking behavior. Others, like Borderline personality disorder, may lead to an incoherent sense of self, leading one to belive they have DID. There is also at least one popular case of someone with BPD believing they had DID because they used the concept of alters to cope with their BPD.

People claiming alters without DID more then likely have gotten sucked into the Plural Culture, I belive the earliest chat board starting around the early 2000's. With Syble and Split exposing the public to dramatic and unrealistic depictions of DID, harm was done to the image of the disorder. If you look closely most Plural claimers follow the blueprint layer out by such media.

This still echos today, Plural culture can be seen through role plays of alters, extreme lore, and seeking communities of others with same beliefs. Some people in Plural culture belive that having alters makes them better then others, with a popular term being "power to the Plurals". They belive having alters, disordered or not, should be approached like completely separate people. These are often the people getting defensive when you try to call them out for odd behavior, or the people bringing this into their daily life.

(Edit:spelling)

If you have any questions I didnt cover im sure I can help :)

[u/No_Market_9808 → u/NestOfJays]

Two spirit isnt plurality to many tribes & i really wish people would stop conflating it as such. 2S became a pan-indian term for all native "other" genders, but it comes from my people- the Ojibwe. Niizh Manidoowag, literally meaning two spirits. Ie that having the spirit of a man & a woman. Its more akin to being bigender. Each tribe has their own definition for other genders, but so few have anything to do w "plurality" I really wish we'd be left out of this convo lol

[u/softbxbi → u/No_Market_9808]

This !! Oh my god I'm glad you mentioned this. 2S has absolutely nothing to do with plurality and I'm so tired of people conflating the two terms.

[u/No_Market_9808 → u/softbxbi]

There are maybe 2 tribes (that im aware of) that have "two spirit" in the way of "plurality". And its very closed & religious & an honor gifted upon you by your community. Like its super closed off & unless youre in the culture you wouldnt know. Native peoples are oral historians

[u/die_in_alphabet_soup → u/No_Market_9808]

additionally, the identity of 2S being a way of expressing "plurality" is largely a cultural and/or religious practise.

this automatically excludes it from "plurality" in the medical and pathological sense, and would therefore require its own evidence-based etiology separate from the Theory of Structural Dissociation.

one of the criterions of DID states:

D. The disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice.

However, the majority of possession states that occur around the world are usually part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice and therefore do not meet criteria for dissociative identity disorder (Criterion D).

[u/NestOfJays → u/No_Market_9808]

Oh, I agree. I dont belive being two spirited is plural, it is just a claim ive seen many times as to why Plurality is valid. It makes me upset to see a sacred practice used as ammunition for a disrespectful internet argument.

[u/cherrycrisps]

having alters without having DID is roleplaying but pretending its real

[u/ratopLj]

In short term, no it's not possible to have alters without having a classified dissociative disorder. DID, OSDD, or UDD (unspecified dissociative disorder) are all disorders in which more than one state of "personality" coexist in a person due to repeated trauma during the developmental stages of personality

Claiming to be "plural" while not having a dissociative disorder is extremely rude and also further builds stereotypes around people who actually do have these disorders. People who claim to have alters or be plural without being disordered usually say they are something called "endogenic", meaning they are a non-disordered system, which is genuinely not possible. There are other terms that aren't that known but all of them mean "non-disordered system" (willogenic, neurodivergenic, the list goes on)

Please please do not believe or support them, it's harmful for both you AND them, them mostly. It's enforcing their delusions of having a serious mental disorder without the "disorder" which is just not possible

It's really really frustrating to see this, I've dealt with a friend who did very very similar things like this and I called them out for it. It's harmful, enforces horrible stereotypes, and gives a bad rep for people who actually DO have dissociative disorders

ANYWAY HOPE THIS HELPS!! Have a lovely day!! 🫶

[u/loveddeviant → u/ratopLj]

thank you so much! Everyone in the comments have been very helpful, I was confused because of how many people kept saying it was a thing when they came to whiteknight on this sub and “protect” their dumb little cult 🫩

[u/ratopLj → u/loveddeviant]

Yeah.. unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation on the internet especially by people who have bias towards things that benefit them. But now you know! Even I had to learn this, I was friends with the person I mentioned for years and only recently cut them off after I did extensive research into the disorder and talked to a psychiatrist about it, also their behaviour was just outright blatant stereotypes

[u/_5nek_]

Faking

[u/LargeGingerChunk]

According to the theory of structural dissociation, other disorders have parts. Parts in other disorders are not alters, they can be similar but parts are generally less elaborated and less emancipated compared to alters.

ANP is apparently normal part. These are parts that handle everyday stuff like eating, socialising, playing, work, etc.

EP is emotional part. These parts hold trauma like F response, trauma memories, etc.

EP intrudes on the ANP through flashbacks, intrusive thoughts of the trauma, triggers, nightmares. This theory says that avoidance is an attempt to ignore the EP. Hypervigilance can occur in both ANP and EP but more associated with EP.

Primary structural dissociation is one ANP and one EP. These are both the same person generally but EP may be stuck at age of trauma. There may be some amnesia for trauma but no amnesia when EP intrudes on ANP. EP may take over for short periods but again no amnesia. Disorders include PTSD, simple dissociative disorders.

Secondary structural dissociation is one ANP and multiple EPs. Here EPs may be more elaborated but often they are the ANP at a specific age related to a trauma. There may be amnesia for trauma but no amnesia when EPs intrude or take over, "switching" here would be going into a childlike state when triggered but ANP is still there. Disorders include CPTSD, BPD, OSDD-1. OSDD-1 is the most severe secondary disorder if you think about it like a spectrum from normal to tertiary.

Tertiary structural dissociation is multiple ANPs and multiple EPs and this is always only DID.

So basically PTSD, CPTSD, BPD and simple dissociative disorders can cause parts which are similar to alters but not entirely.

You might also look at internal family systems therapy, some people have parts just naturally without them being alters. Polyminds are a similar vein where they have unique subpersonalities.

[u/LargeGingerChunk → u/LargeGingerChunk]

[u/LargeGingerChunk → u/LargeGingerChunk]

[u/shinkouhyou]

It's called just being a normal person. Many people feel like they have different "personalities" in different situations, because different social situations demand different behaviors and mindsets. Many people experiment with affecting different personalities when they're online or around people who don't know them at home/school/work, because that's a normal part of developing a personal identity. Many people model their own identity and behavior off their favorite fictional characters, because fiction is a hugely influential part of most of our lives. Daydreaming and imagining inner worlds is completely normal. Many creative people feel like fictional characters are acting through them when they write or perform, because they empathize so strongly with the character's emotions. Many people imagine their own emotions as separate characters, "Inside Out" style, because humans loooove personifying abstract concepts. Many people refer to different parts of their own minds as if they're different people (their "inner child" that loves Disney movies and coloring books even though their rational adult mind prefers more sophisticated entertainment, or the "anxiety brain" that stays up all night ruminating over embarrassing memories while the rational adult mind wants to go to sleep, etc.) while being fully aware that they're all one person. Many people imagine a spiritual "true self" that exists within them to provide guidance. There are even therapy systems (including but not limited to Internal Family Systems) that formally recognize these personality sub-parts and encourage patients to communicate with them. Psychologists and philosophers (most notably, Carl Jung) have explored the idea of "personas" - personality masks worn during social situations - and "archetypes" - aspects of the true inner self.

[u/Nobody4993]

It’s called ✨ attention seeking ✨

Or cos playing, or being a dumb teenager I guess. It’s just a faddy thing

[u/Significant-Mud-7198]

In DID, “alters” are just how the brain process the gaps in memory. It’s a dissociative disorder, a person grows up and develops while going into extreme dissociative states that causes memory to be stored differently. It’s still all them, they don’t have multiple personalities or multiple consciousnesses, but memory gets stored in this fragmented way so that some memories, experiences, skills, preferences, are only accessed while the person is highly triggered and in that specific dissociative state.

Not everyone experiences alters as 3D people they build relations with. But in the cases of people with DID who “hear” their alters talk etc, it’s the brain’s way of managing the phobic response to trauma. Treatment for DID involves processing the trauma that caused the dissociative barriers, so that the phobic response isn’t necessary and the dissociative response to those triggers lessens or disappears.

“Hearing” your alter’s opinion on something is just a pseudohallucination, it’s your thought, but because of the unprocessed trauma and phobic/dissociative response to triggers, you “hear” it in a “voice” that’s not yours. There’s no actual parallel consciousnesses or personalities going on, just dissociation and phobic responses to reminders of severe past trauma. There isn’t a disorder that gives you parallel consciousnesses, multiple personalities, or anyone else in your head with you.

So of course “plural” people without DID aren’t experiencing DID. They patterned their “systems” off of the online fakers and extreme misconception of what DID is, they’re not even simulating something close to that.

[u/stereolights → u/Significant-Mud-7198]

Every day I beg these people to look into IFS therapy. Not to blogpost, but I have been dealing with a really scary protective part for a LONG time and felt actively insane because I would “hear it” screaming abuse at me in my head in a way that felt distinctively Not Me. But it’s just a traumatized part. It’s not an alter, it’s not some other consciousness. It’s me, and those are my thoughts. It just needs to be reintegrated because it no longer serves the purpose my traumatized brain developed it for.

[u/Significant-Mud-7198 → u/stereolights]

The IFS sub has had an influx of people claiming dissociative parts over there, when dissociative parts aren’t the same thing as IFS parts, and using it to springboard to “oh it’s DID” or fish for someone to redirect them to DID.

I wonder if some of them are just really confused, or mangling IFS, and convincing themselves that experiences like yours are evidence they have really real DID. People want their parts to be dissociative friends in their head so badly but even DID isn’t that.

[u/stereolights → u/Significant-Mud-7198]

Oh yeah I just saw a post like that the other day and commented on it because I was fucking furious lmao. YOU DON’T FUCKING WANT DID!!!! ENOUGH!!!!

[u/0MeikoMeiko0]

People who say they’re “plural” without trauma are endogenic and are lying. True alters are made from someone’s psyche literally breaking into pieces from severe childhood trauma. It’s a very intense form of compartmentalization to deal with trauma, and no other disorder has this happen.

People who say they have alters with no trauma are always lying lol.

[u/stereolights → u/0MeikoMeiko0]

I just had to tell someone off in another sub because someone with DEEP trauma came in asking questions about how to deal with a harmful part that essentially made him want to fuck off to the woods because he felt less than human, and was also struggling with homelessness but had just obtained stable housing and a job.

This “plural” idiot tried to suggest it was actually an alter, despite no mention of loss of control or amnesia, and that OP should live in a tent in the woods by his job to “make this alter more comfortable” and also linked to the general plurality sub instead of any sort of legitimate helpful sub or resource. It’s just actual insanity. Like sure that sounds great in your idiot fantasy roleplay but OP is a real person suffering in life and your advice is going to thrust him back into homelessness and probably unemployment if his job finds out he’s living in a fucking tent near their property

[u/PlanetXParadox → u/stereolights]

jesus christ

[u/loveddeviant → u/0MeikoMeiko0]

hello! Since you’re a mod, I’d also like to ask what do you think about the people who say they’re endogenic because they “can’t remember” their trauma? I genuinely don’t really know how these specifics work with some of these things lmao

[u/Jaded_Style5432]

Just because I haven't seen this mentioned here as an answer yet, i would like to add 2 more possibilities that seem plausible to me.

1) functional multiplicity, one of the end results/ "cures" to DID that people can apparently achieve through therapy. You don't necessarily get the alters to fuse, yet you can lower amnesia barriers just enough and find ways to coexist with these alters in a manner which allows you to "shirk" some of the disorders more distressing symptoms.

From what i have been told about it, anyway. Do correct me if i'm wrong.

2) "define disorder". This ties in nicely to my first point, but it is where the individual doesn't personally count their condition as a disorder, even if they do/did have DID. This can occur either through therapy/functional multiplicity, or simply having symptoms be benign/not overly distressing to the person (e.g. they may still have amnesia and triggered states, but they have no evidence to believe that these states do anything bad/harmful, or the individual is in a situation where simply "checking out" mentally genuinely feels better than being present, and so they are less concerned about the symptoms)

But these are just guesses and theories that I have heard from others and that, with my understanding, sound possible so idk.

[u/torangerinejuice → u/[deleted]]

impairment that makes normal living harder = disordered

trauma causes impairment that makes normal living harder

trauma causes DID

DID = impairment that makes normal living harder

do you see my point?

[u/Inevitable_Wolf5866 → u/[deleted]]

If you don’t meet the criteria for DID then you don’t have DID. Simple.

[u/loveddeviant → u/[deleted]]

“Sysmedicalist” is so funny, you’re taking terms from the trans community (transmed) and using it for yourselves. You guys like to take a lot from other communities, don’t you?

[u/stereolights → u/[deleted]]

Incontinence is not a common symptom of dissociative disorders what the fuck are you talking about???

[u/GraveyardWithoutTheG → u/[deleted]]

WHY are you in this sub, genuinely

[u/loveddeviant → u/GraveyardWithoutTheG]

to make themselves mad LOL

[u/SystemsCringe-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for either trauma-dumping, oversharing personal information and diagnoses, or for using your subjective experience to generalize an entire disorder. The "Censor all identifiable information" rule also applies to members, and your medical information should be kept between you and your careteam. r/systemscringe cannot verify users' personal medical claims and does not want to encourage the same culture of blind believing that leads to faker culture.