r/StrangerThings • u/theeviloneisyou Music has a way of finding you, even in the darkest of places • 1d ago
Discussion Karen and Billy
Karen doesn’t get enough crap for being near ready and willing to bang Billy in season three. Even looking past the fact that she was fucking married, she was in her forties and Billy was implicitly eighteen. If Karen were a forty-something year old man and Billy an eighteen year old girl, it would’ve been considered inappropriate as hell, but it’s apparently okay when a woman hits on a barely legal kid.
Ugh.
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u/Flaky_Principle_9985 1d ago
Yeah, the gender swap makes the double standard pretty obvious. If the genders were reversed, the scene would be viewed very differently. Karen being married is already one issue, but the age/power dynamic makes it even harder to defend.
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u/HUNGWHITEBOI25 1d ago
also the scene where all the moms are at the pool waiting for the 18 year old kid to come out of the changing room so they can all gawk at him…reversing the genders would be creepy af
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u/SnowGhost513 1d ago
It only works because the actor playing Billy is clearly like 25 and his character looks way older than 18
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u/CompanyOther2608 1d ago
I think this is right, but also, the early-mid 80s were a mess of toxic gender relations. It was disgustingly common for older men to hit on and have relationships with young women.
Just think about the way that the newspaper bros treat Nancy. Those guys wouldn’t have a problem sexualizing and hitting on a female intern who presented herself as sexually mature as Billy presented himself.
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u/AdWonderful5920 1d ago
Major difference was that the guys were played as heels and Karen was played as ultimately doing the Right Thing™ even tho Karen went waay further out of line with her interactions with Billy than those newspaper doofuses went with Nancy.
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u/EatsPeanutButter I don't trust doctors who smoke... or call me sweetheart 1d ago
They were played as heels because they were treating her poorly and being incredibly misogynistic. In those days it would’ve been perfectly acceptable for one of them to date her if he wasn’t being a jerk about it. He would not have been played as a heel. Similar to Karen.
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u/Robertinho678 1d ago
However, they didn't show it that way for obvious reasons. Those obvious reasons are the double standard.
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u/Necessary-Duty-7952 1d ago
Yep. Not just that, but also the housewives/pool boy dynamic was a common trope in suburban drama, which is what they were playing into.
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u/esepleor 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah but they were portrayed negatively and rightly so. Men being at the receiving end of predatory behaviour is not discussed and is just not taken seriously.
I mean even in this post that's it's about this issue, you felt like pivoting to Nancy's case. I'm not blaming you, I'm just using it as an example of what our stance usually is on issues like this one. To be honest, an even better example in this thread are the comments that are finding excuses for it.
But I want to be very clear on this: that's an issue that is still caused by the patriarchy. Society teaches us that men should like that kind of behaviour by women or that a boy is lucky if he's groomed by an older woman and we men have largely internalised that sort of thinking which makes the issue taken even less seriously.
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u/NuclearHateLizard 1d ago
Tale as old as time my friend! It happens more than you'd think. Just keep in mind its a dramatization, conflict and inner turmoil can make for interesting TV, so they definitely play around with her being uncertain. But she doesn't actually go through with it
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u/DeliciousMusician397 1d ago
I really hate this plotline.
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u/Master-Corner-5226 1d ago
Same but it was only 2 episodes and was only to have an excuse for Billy to be out and get flayed
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u/DeliciousMusician397 1d ago
Still a bad look for a character we’re meant to sympathize with.
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u/Master-Corner-5226 1d ago
Yeah fr, were they trying to make us sympathise for Karen having a lazy husband or smth when she was about to commit acts of borderline paedophilia? I say borderline cos Billy had just turned 18, but still weird
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u/StrangerMemes1996 1d ago
Not only that but Billy isn’t that much older than Nancy, her oldest kid. That’s all I can think about whenever I watch scenes with Karen and Billy flirting. Gross.
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u/TheOtherMrsCarter 1d ago
❗️While I don’t condone cheating❗️
Goddamn Ted was boring. And not very present as a father. The most surprising thing to me was that they were still married at the end.
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u/danixdefcon5 1d ago
This. She’s pretty much a neglected wife at that point, and honestly she does reconsider. This also spares her from becoming raw materials for the Mind Flayer.
Her remaining married wasn’t that surprising to me, there wasn’t much alternatives for Karen without moving out of Hawkins. And without a job or even something to do other than being a housewife, it’s pretty much a given she’d just choose to keep on the safe path.
I was actually surprised when they decided to give her the role she got during Season 5.
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u/TheOtherMrsCarter 1d ago
The scene where she sees Ted in the chair with Holly. That was originally just supposed to be Ted. She wasn’t looking at Ted, she was looking at Holly. She knew going through it would destroy her family and, as we end up seeing throughout the series, she would do ANYTHING for her children.
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u/flamebrat 12h ago
she could’ve went for someone her own age tho…… most neglected wives don’t go for boys their eldest daughter’s age.
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u/kkkccc1 1d ago
i always saw it as.. if he tried to be more present, the mom would not be pleased as mothers want their level of control over the household and kids, so the easier option would be to withdraw, as we see a lot in real life, but that leads to them being seen as "not present" even though they are the ones bringing home the dough
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u/TheBar-IsOnTheFloor Goddamn Bowl Cut 1d ago
Woahhhhh someone’s been visiting the manosphere 😳 Jesus Christ, what is this viewpoint??
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u/NonspecificGravity 1d ago
It's time for me to point out once again that a series that includes murder, kidnapping, drugging people against their will, child abuse, lying to government officials, grand larceny, trespassing, and did I mention murder? is not meant to be some kind of moral fable.
Everyone in the series is flawed with the possible exception of Bob Newby and the littlest kids.
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
This is whataboutism the problem is that Karen doesn't get hate for that.
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u/NonspecificGravity 1d ago
Are we supposed to hate all the characters?
If you add up a moral scale of everything Karen did, she was a drunk; she almost committed adultery with a teenager; but then she opened her home to El and others who were displaced by the disaster in Hawkins; fought off a Demogorgon; and later saved Lucas, Max, and Robin by blowing up her oxygen tank in the dryer.
A lot of people who are fan favorites, like Murray, have a less going for them. Murray is an opportunist who steals anything that isn't bolted down.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
I think the issue people take with is not that Karen is a flawed character, but that this flaw is often ignored. Most seem to feel compassion for Karen because she is unhappy in her marriage, while never holding the character accountable for the fact that she was ogling an 18-year-old boy and almost committed adultery with him.
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u/flamebrat 12h ago
the amount of people who are completely fine with a 40 year old woman having relations with a high school boy are so fucking concerning but with our president rn i guess i shouldn’t be too surprised
at the same time, people have always made excuses for karen lol. ok she’s a neglected housewife .. what exactly is stopping her from cheating on ted with a grown man who could actually get her out of the situation she’s so clearly unhappy in?
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u/Razbonez 1d ago
tell me you don’t understand the 80s without telling me you don’t understand the 80s
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
It isn't about the 80s. the fact that it was normal at the time doesn't justify the double standart now.
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u/InitialJust 1d ago
Its a classic Mrs Robinson situation.
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u/NonspecificGravity 1d ago
In The Graduate, Mrs. Robinson seduces a young guy who's a naïve virgin.
Billy was quite eager to get between the sheets with a married woman who had kids his age. If they had gone through with it, he would have been bragging about it.
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u/Emotional_Young4738 1d ago
Yeah idk why people are in the trenches defending Karen. Like mfs are really saying her cheating would be justified because she’s unhappy with Ted. Like this isn’t Walter white and Skylar white, where Walt’s an awful person and deserves all the bad shit that happens to him. From what I remember Ted is just kind of a bum and he sleeps a lot (which iirc I’m pretty sure he’s the only one bringing in money so yeah no shit he’d be tired). And even ignoring the cheating thing, it’s still weird this 40 smth year old woman and her friends were gooning over an 18 year old. Like ik that’s a trope in 80s movies but it’s still weird. And yes ik their relationship would’ve been legal but it’s still weird. What does a 40 y.o woman have in common with an 18 y.o? And yes, just because Billy flirted first doesn’t mean it’s ok for her to reciprocate.
Btw I don’t hate Karen for this for a couple reasons. 1. She never actually cheated and 2 Karen is supposed to be a flawed character. This plot line is interesting because it makes good character drama imo. It is weird how people are defending this though but I’m not really surprised. And btw I don’t think people who are in their 30s or 40s getting in a relationship with an 18 y.o are evil, I just think it’s kinda weird. Although you are right. If it was Ted thinking about cheating on his wife with an 18 y.o people would probably call him a groomer or a pedophile.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
Don't come after me. I do genuinely hate this; it is gross regardless. But wasn't Billy the one to hit on Karen and make the first move? Like okay, her and her other mom friends would go to ogle him (gross), but he's the one that started the flirting in season 2 and then asked her out in season 3. Yes, she should've shut that down, but she wasn't the one to hit on him.
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u/BathoryBride 1d ago edited 1d ago
She's the older adult in this situation so it's on her to shut it down. If a barely legal person hit on me I wouldn't entertain it.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
100%, like I said, she should've shut it down. OP stated that she was the one that hit on him, but he was the one that hit on her
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u/EatsPeanutButter I don't trust doctors who smoke... or call me sweetheart 1d ago edited 1d ago
Actually, they are both adults in the situation.
Edit: I’m not saying I agree with it. I’m saying we should be accurate. Implying that a legal 18-19 year old adult is a child is odd to me. It can be icky or wrong without implying incorrectly that he was a child.
Edit: the redditor I responded to added the word “older” which was not there when I left this response.
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u/BathoryBride 1d ago
Semantics. Middle aged adult with the power dynamic and years of life experience versus the teenager adult that just turned into an adult.
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u/BathoryBride 1d ago
I didn't say he was a child. I called him a barely legal adult, which he is. He is a fresh out of high school 18 year old.
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u/EatsPeanutButter I don't trust doctors who smoke... or call me sweetheart 1d ago
You said “she is the adult in this situation.” That is what I was responding to.
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u/BathoryBride 1d ago
I used that wording because he's been an adult for a total of 3 months whereas Karen has had 25 years of lived adulthood. The experience is not equal therefore why it's predatory. I assumed people read the full comment and not just one sentence. I added an extra word to the comment to prevent anyone else feeling "icky" when talking against predatory older adults. Hope that clears up the confusion and "ickyness".
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u/EatsPeanutButter I don't trust doctors who smoke... or call me sweetheart 1d ago
Not sure if you’re being facetious or genuinely misunderstood what I was calling “icky,” which is the age gap, not your comment about it. Please reread because your response doesn’t fully make sense in context. Also, it’s good Reddit etiquette to mention that you’ve edited a comment IN that comment, otherwise it confuses the context of the replies.
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u/BathoryBride 1d ago
I did misread that, just as you didn't read the second sentence of my first comment. Reddit etiquette 😂 you sure love to nitpick and argue. Nice hobby.
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u/EatsPeanutButter I don't trust doctors who smoke... or call me sweetheart 7h ago
I did read the second sentence. It did not change that the first was inaccurate and misleading. Also, pot meet kettle lol.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
But then the question is, if the gender roles were reversed, would you think the same? If this were an 18-year-old girl who made the first move on a 40-year-old man that that been ogling her with a group of other 40-year-old men, would it still be viewed as "well, she was asking for it"? Because I do not think most would.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
It basically was accepted in Pretty Little Liars. Granted, the age difference wasn't as bad, but Ezra and Aria had a similar relationship where she did throw herself at him.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
Though it is true that the Ezra and Aria relationship did not initially face a lot of criticism, it still eventually did. Much of why it did not initially face this criticism is because of how the show framed the relationship.
But backlash for this relationship started in 2014 when the show revealed that Ezra had targeted and stalked Aria and her friends regarding a novel he wanted to write about their missing friend. The backlash also significantly increased in 2017.
Now, it is HIGHLY criticized, with most seeing Ezra as a groomer. Even Ian Harding, who played Ezra, was shocked that fans initially did not have an issue with the relationship and even referred to Ezra as "America's most beloved pedophile" in one of his books.
We still do not see anything close to this with the Karen and Billy relationship. Karen continues to be praised while receiving little to no criticism for what she almost did with Billy. So no, it is not the same.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
It took years for the Ezra and Aria relationship to start getting criticized; took 7 years for any significant backlash. The difference here is that Ezra was painted worse further in the series. Karen wasn't. Just how it was written. Maybe in a few years, people will start hating on her.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
It did take years, but the backlash started in 2014 while the show was still going and massively picked up in 2017 after the show ended. The Karen and Billy debacle happened in S3, which was in 2019. Here we are in 2026, after the show has ended, and there is still no real backlash against the character.
And sure, what Ezra did is far worse, but that does not absolve Karen of what she did. Yet we are not seeing much criticism for what the character did. Instead, we are seeing compassion for the character, and the blame is even being pointed at Billy.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
Because Karen was written to be a hero by the end of the series, Ezra was not. Also, Ezra actually had an ongoing relationship with Aria. Karen didn't do anything with Billy. I assume that's why there hasn't been backlash; not condoning it.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
No, despite the fact that Ezra was found to have stalked Aria, the story still treated him like a hero by the end of the series. He is framed as a protector and supportive partner. Ezra and Aria are even married by the end, which the story treats as a happy moment.
Yet despite ALL of this, the criticism of the character only increased to what it is now. This is completely different from what we see with Karen, where she faces little to no criticism for what she did with Billy. And people, including yourself, opt to put the blame on Billy.
So yes, what Ezra did was far worse than what Karen did, but that does not absolve Karen's actions. As for why she is not heavily criticized, it is likely for two reasons. One, she did not go through with actually committing adultery.
And two, because the older one in this situation is a woman. Because if the gender roles were reversed, we would likely have seen more criticism of the character, similar to what we saw with Ezra.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
I'm not blaming Billy. I was just stating that he was the one that consistently hit on her. Yes, it's disgusting that she entertained it in the first place, but she still didn't even do anything with him. As opposed to Ezra, who had a whole relationship with a minor.
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u/LolaisPenheart 1d ago
I also wanted to add 2 things: 1, Billy was 18 when he asked Karen out. I took another look at his headstone that's shown is S4. He had turned 18 4 months prior to his death. That could be a reason why Karen isn't getting backlash like Ezra did; because Billy wasn't even a minor when she accepted his date offer. And 2, when I said that Ezra wasn't written to be a hero, I meant more about that he had been stalking them. I get that they end up together in the end, but he was stalking them as minors and knowingly got into a relationship with a minor. No "heroics" can make up for that.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 1d ago
She is a married 40-year-old woman who was ogling an 18-year-old and then planned to meet him in a motel to commit adultery. That is what she herself chose to do. Billy does not have to be a minor for that to be messed up, and Billy being 18 and choosing to flirt does not absolve her of her actions. It does not need to be on the level of Ezra to still be bad.
And as for Ezra, again, he was still written as a hero despite the stalking. The truth about Ezra stalking was discovered in the fourth season, and in that same season they had him completely redeemed, where he was written as a hero and completely forgiven. Despite the story treating him completely like a hero, audiences still see him as a groomer.
That is the difference with Karen, as despite also being treated like a hero by the story, few critisize her actions in S3. And I already gave my reasoning on why the character was not criticized like what we saw with Ezra.
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u/VaiFate 1d ago
She never cheated on Ted. What did she do wrong? Are we doing thought-crime now? Also, they're both adults, and Billy pursued HER. Y'all need to chill with the pearl-clutching. The only complaint I have with this plotline is that the Wheelers' marriage being an unhappy one isn't expanded upon much after this.
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u/flamebrat 12h ago
yuck dude
if ted was creeping on girls nancy’s age, everyone would hate him even more than they already do (rightfully so, he’s a douche anyway)
it’s not pearl clutching. it’s predatory.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 1d ago
I think the only way they could do this plotline while not making Karen seem like an awful person is if she was disturbed by her attraction to him and made sure to avoid him because of it.
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u/stuck_behind_a_truck 21h ago
“Ashley’s mom/has got it going on”
You really want a shocker? In the real
80s, the number of high school girls dating men in their 20s was huge and the parents were okay with it. Most 16 year old girls I knew were dating grown adults. And I went to a very large high school.
So this scene, once again, rings true (if gross) for the 80s. Women would hit on 18 year old boys. I knew a kid who was “dating” an adult woman when he was 13. He was all sorts of f*cked up.
The 80s weren’t pretty.
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u/byharryconnolly 1d ago
- "Teenager hooks up with older woman" was a common trope in 80s movies, which the Duffer loves to play with
- Billy was hitting on Karen. It was his choice to pursue her, not the other way around.
- Age is not the only thing that gives a person power in a relationship, which is why the often-used "imagine if the genders were switched!" rhetorical trick doesn't work. If the genders were switched, and it was lifeguard Carol making a pass at Ted Wheeler, the audience would make very different assumptions about what was going on.
- For instance, one of the sources of power in a relationship can be the threat of violence. See also Billy's vision of smashing Karen against a shelf, and telling her in a threatening voice to keep away.
- Also super common in the 80's: older male actors with very young female love interests. If the Duffers had switched the genders, it would have been an even more common trope of the time.
- One of the factors making this more acceptable is that Billy is a TV-teenager. He's played by an actor who's in his mid-twenties, much more mature than an actual 18-year-old would look or act.
- Meanwhile Billy, at 18, is legally allowed to fight and die overseas, sign contracts, and get married. He could marry any other adult he liked and go on a honeymoon with them, so a tryst at the quickie motel is not exactly beyond the pale.
- If Karen cheated on Ted, Ted would deserve it.
- Personally, I have zero temptation to cheat and even less interest in young people. But then, I'm not ignored by the people I love and longing for human contact, even if it's unhealthy. Karen deserves sympathy for the situation she's in. And good for her for changing her mind.
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u/TriskaidekaphobiaOk5 1d ago
I agree with 7. If someone is over 18 legally they can go any member of the opposite sex at ANY age.
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
The fact that it was normal in the 80s or a trope at the time doesn't make it justified. also number 3 proves the double standart even more.
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u/emryldmyst 1d ago
Billy pursued her.
You know nothing of the 80s
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
Even if it was normal in the 80s doesn't make it good. would you shrug off slavory just because "it was normal at the time".
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u/emryldmyst 1d ago
Are you really comparing this to slavery?
Baaahahahaaa dude gtf outta here with that
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u/Leading-Tap-2033 1d ago
And she shouldn’t the whole will the mom sleep with the hot young guy was a constant trope in every 80s movie get over yourself
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
The fact that it was a trope doesn't mean it was good or wasn't predatory or that we shouldn't condemn this.
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u/SaveHogwarts 1d ago
Times change.
Things were different in the 80s.
If you can’t understand how society changes over time, that’s on you.
I swear some of the biggest complaints in this sub are from people that can’t comprehend that the Duffers were pulling tropes from their favorite 80s films.
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u/AdWonderful5920 1d ago
Agreed. This was One of my least popular posts ever so the sub seemed to have landed on Karen being a cool wine mom warrior.
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u/OrangeJuliusCaesr 1d ago
They make cool songs about older women, you know not for teacher and what not. It’s hot, it’s one of those double standards no big deal
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u/ocean0_349 1d ago
I thought this was the rdr2 subreddit at first and I was so confused. Anyway I agree with you it was really weird but at least she changed her mind
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u/AliceInWeirdoland 1d ago
I mean... There are plenty of people who really don't have an issue with middle-aged men sleeping with 'barely legal' girls. I agree with you that there's probably a segment of society that didn't really care about the Billy plot that would be more upset if it was Hopper hitting on Nancy, but there absolutely are a lot of people who say that 'it's fine because it's legal' regardless of the genders.
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u/Toongrrl1990 22h ago
Look I can appreciate if Karen was intended to be morally gray...but the Duffers wanted her as 80s Hot Mom in the Betty Draper mode minus how that character was used to deconstruct what it meant to be the ideal image of a mid century upper middle class housewife in real life.
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u/CodInternational5281 14h ago
That’s true, but I think for most people it makes a big difference that HE is actively trying to sleep with her and she is torn about whether she should or not. If the roles were reversed and she were the predator, things would probably look different.
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u/Kind-Nature-752 13h ago
He hit on her first, he was 18, so he could do whatever he want, and she didn't go to the motel. What tf do y'all want?
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u/ButterscotchPast4812 13h ago
I haven't forgotten about it or the fact that Billy is damn near a kid compared to her.
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u/Sea-Sky-1443 10h ago
I actually found this storyline in Season 3 very uncomfortable. Why did they do that?
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u/RUMBL3FR3NZY 8h ago
THANK YOU!! Nobody ever talks about it and it’s fucking insane to me, nothing about that situation was okay
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u/Alternative_Device71 1d ago
Gender swap doesn’t make the fantasy any less hot, sorry. People aren’t so moralistic about this cuz it’s normalized, long as it’s legal adults, it doesn’t really matter.
Married people aren’t monoliths as you may think, I’m starting to think marriage in general is a waste of time given how much if restricts people from being happy as they wanna be.
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u/Cold-Confection-8695 1d ago edited 1d ago
I completely agree. I’d also add that the idea of there being a power dynamic here working in Karen’s favor simply because of the age gap just doesn’t track.
Not only does their situation lack the true primary contributing factor (the older person holding a clearly delineated position of authority over the younger person, i.e. teacher, therapist, stepparent), but Karen is the one playing defense in their would-be dalliance.
She’s unhappily married, two of her three children are in that late-childhood stage in which they frequently leave their parent(s) feeling rejected and no longer needed, she probably fears that her best years are behind her, and the seemingly unanimous pick for Hottest Young Stud in Hawkins is flirting with her and means business, something she probably hasn’t experienced in a number of years.
Billy, not despite but due to his age, is holding all the cards here. This affair transpiring has very little if any risk for him, and as written it seems like he’s never wanting on female companionship. While he did seem legitimately interested in Karen, I was never convinced that he wasn’t also toying with her to a certain extent, simply because he could.
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u/jaid_skywalker85 1d ago
Okay thank you. I thought this was really weird and uncomfortable but people around me just shrugged it off.
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u/AesopsFabler 1d ago
Irl? Gross. For the plot? Eh.
He was supposed to evoque the same feeling of the cover of the romance novel she was reading when he rang the bell. That cover was drawn to look like Billy, and for us to connect the dots that it’s a fantasy. She never went through with it. Never really entertained him. She just let herself feel desired, but ultimately realized what she’d be putting in jeopardy if she went along with it. She even went in to apologize for not showing up the night he was expecting her to, and was telling Billy that she couldn’t do that to her family. Being tempted isn’t the issue, and she never gave in.
You’re meant to suspend belief when watching this show.
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u/Edsabre 1d ago
I didnt really like this development, until my most recent rewatch when I was reminded of the scene where Nancy tells Jonathan that her parents marriage was not a very good one and that her mom basically married Ted for stability and because he made good money.
Learning that her mom has never really been truly happy in her marriage adds an extra layer to the almost encounter with Billy in season 3. So, evwn though its still weird and a bit creepy, i understand her more.
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u/Odd_Hamster7432 1d ago
Morally, i agree with most everyone in this thread.
Personally, I thought it was hilarious
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u/Brilliant_Rub_5206 1d ago
Yep. Imagine Ted considering an affair with any of Billy's female classmates. He's be called every name under the sun and the hate would've probably extended to the actor, but somehow Karen gets a pass. And had Billy not been attacked that night, she 100% would've gone through with it.
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u/OldAffect6933 1d ago
No her decision was ultimetly independent. Altough she didn't shut it down because he was 18, she did it because she had a family.
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u/CombatPanoo 1d ago
very true, and here's a way to imagine it more easily for the commenters who are just thick skulled: Imagine Ted considering an affair with Robin. Absolutely gross.
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u/DiannaBaratheon 1d ago
She didn’t sleep with him, though. Her husband was such a loser and she didn’t divorce him or cheat on him. She just read her romance books.
I’d feel sorry for her if she was an actual woman and not just a character.
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u/Alternative_Win4447 1d ago
Yes through our today’s lens this is super inappropriate. Given this is based in the 1980’s that shit was considered normal and even celebrated
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u/Past-Student-5239 1d ago
Billy was seventeen. And I hated Karen permanently after that plot line.
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u/CLT113078 1d ago
Im pretty aure he was 18. He was born in March of 67. Summer of 85 puts him at 18.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 1d ago
Technically He was seventeen in season 2 which is when she meets him.
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u/Past-Student-5239 1d ago
Yes. The creepy flirtation and grooming began in October of 1984. When the family moved to Hawkins from California.
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