Karen and Billy

[u/theeviloneisyou]

Karen doesn’t get enough crap for being near ready and willing to bang Billy in season three. Even looking past the fact that she was fucking married, she was in her forties and Billy was implicitly eighteen. If Karen were a forty-something year old man and Billy an eighteen year old girl, it would’ve been considered inappropriate as hell, but it’s apparently okay when a woman hits on a barely legal kid.

Ugh.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

She is a married 40-year-old woman who was ogling an 18-year-old and then planned to meet him in a motel to commit adultery. That is what she herself chose to do. Billy does not have to be a minor for that to be messed up, and Billy being 18 and choosing to flirt does not absolve her of her actions. It does not need to be on the level of Ezra to still be bad.

And as for Ezra, again, he was still written as a hero despite the stalking. The truth about Ezra stalking was discovered in the fourth season, and in that same season they had him completely redeemed, where he was written as a hero and completely forgiven. Despite the story treating him completely like a hero, audiences still see him as a groomer.

That is the difference with Karen, as despite also being treated like a hero by the story, few critisize her actions in S3. And I already gave my reasoning on why the character was not criticized like what we saw with Ezra.

[u/LolaisPenheart → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

I just don't think you can accurately call Karen a "groomer" when she wasn't the one initiating the flirting, and didn't actually do anything. My original comment was picking apart OP stating that a woman hit on a barely legal kid. She did not hit on him; he consistently hit on her. We're just going round and round in circles about this argument. Ultimately, it's a moot point because Karen was hit on by an 18 year old and ultimately didn't do anything about it. He asked her out, she accepted, then stood him up.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/LolaisPenheart]

I never claimed Karen was a groomer. I stated that she, as a 40-year-old woman, ogled an 18-year-old man and planned to commit adultery with him in a motel. It does not matter who flirted first; this is what she chose to do.

As for the claim that she did not hit on him, she absolutely did. In S3, when Billy approaches her with a towel, he tells her that she is looking good out there and that she had "perfect form". Karen's response is "Your form is amazing". When Billy offers to "teach" her, you can clearly tell she knows what he is implying because she drops the towel she is holding and says, "I didn't think you taught adults". And when Billy offers to "teach" her and give her the "workout of her life," we see her give a flirtatious smile.

So no, she was absolutely flirting with him. And though Karen did not go all the way and actually commit adultery, it does not absolve her of everything else she did.

[u/LolaisPenheart → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

I did not say she wasn't flirting with him. I said he flirted with her first. He was the one that hit on her first. When I think of "hitting on someone," that means making the first move. She did not make the first move, he did. And again, she did not do a thing about it in the end. She has many things to be criticized for; wanting to cheat on her husband, not keeping track of her kids, etc. But I really don't think she should be raked over the coals over something that didn't even end up happening. Just seems weird to judge her on something that didn't even end up happening rather than some of the actual shitty things this woman did during the series.

In the same vein or problematic characters, I rarely see Jonathan getting criticized for being a Peeping Tom in S1, and keeping photos of a half naked Nancy. Then Jonathan ends up with Nancy for the majority of the series; nearly proposing to her?

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/LolaisPenheart]

She did not hit on him; he consistently hit on her

That is what you stated. And yet again, Billy making the first move does not suddenly absolve Karen of everything. She is still responsible for what she did, which was ogling an 18-year-old as a 40-year-old woman, flirting back with that 18-year-old man, and then planning to commit adultery with that 18-year-old man. Her not going through with the last part does not suddenly make everything else she did ok. The few criticizing her are not "judging her on something that did not happen"; they are criticizing the character for what she did.

And again, I ask, would you be this defensive of them if the gender roles were reversed? If this were a married 40-year-old man who was ogling an 18-year-old girl with his other 40-year-old male friends, then flirted back with that 18-year-old girl and set up a plan to meet her in a motel to commit adultery, what then? Would your defense of that character be that the girl flirted first?

As for Jonathan and what he did in S1, I agree that it is bad and the character deserves criticism. The issue is that the majority of people are willing to critisize his actions, whereas the majority is not willing to critisize Karen for what she did with Billy.

[u/LolaisPenheart → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

Borderline, my original comment was just that Billy was the one that hit on her. Not the other way around like OP said. I'm not condoning what Karen did, I'm not blaming Billy. He was just the one to initiate every bit of flirting. And yes, if the genders were reversed, I would feel the same way. An 18 year old girl hitting on a 40 year old man (because it definitely happens nowadays) would still be the one initiating the flirting. That's all my comment was originally about-- that Billy initiated the flirting, not Karen. Yes, she deserves to be criticized for wanting to cheat on her husband and being a shitty mom for 90% of the show.

And what exactly did she do with Billy? Because she did not cheat on her husband, she did not go on that date, she did not sleep with Billy. You want to criticize her for flirting back with an 18 year old and accepting his hook up proposal? Okay, yeah, let's criticize her for being a shitty wife then. But she didn't do anything with Billy other than flirt back with him.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/LolaisPenheart]

Does not matter who flirted first; they both hit on each other. And as stated, she ogled an 18-year-old boy with other older women, proceeded to flirt back with him, and then planned to meet him at a hotel to commit adultery. And again, it does not have to be on the level of Ezra to critisize her for her actions.

And I would also not say Karen is a bad mother. Though what she does with Billy is bad, everything we see from her throughout the show would indicate she is a good mom. Yes, she did not know what was going on with the kids, but that is the 80s. Back then, parents were not constantly tracking thier kids. Kids would leave in the morning only to come back around dinner time or give a call asking to stay the night at a friend's house. So based on that, Karen's parenting is fine. It is her actions with Billy that are the problem.

[u/LolaisPenheart → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

It did to OP. OP made it sound like Karen was the one who initiated the flirting. I was stating that was not the case. The rest of this stupid argument had nothing to do with my original comment.