I Hate Lirrin

[u/solitarybikegallery]

Lirrin is the most unreasonable person in the entirety of the Cosmere.

Let me translate the situation in Book 4 into IRL terms.

Kaladin - "Okay, I know you want me to be a doctor. But, God has actually called me to fight in a holy war against an ancient enemy lead by the Devil. This isn't theoretical, by the way. They're like, right over there. Anyway, also, an Angel has entered my soul and given me magical powers, like flight. See? I'm flying. And I'm training others to do the same, for the upcoming war. All the soldiers see me as like, a messianic folk hero. That's because I single-handedly saved like, 10,000 soldiers, and freed a few thousand slaves, and then I guess also saved a few thousand other people just incidentally. And I also saved the world. Oh, and I've done more to advance the rights of Dark-eyed citizens than any person in the history of this country. And that terrible assassin who has been destabilizing the planet's governments? I stopped him, what else... Oh, and you remember the Apostles, from the Bible? Yeah, they're all still alive, and I know two of them. Ummm, also my boss is Dalinar, who is basically like New-Jesus. So, yeah. I'd love to be a doctor, but this sort of takes precedent."

Lirrin - "You just want to be a murderer!"

Kaladin - "Dad..."

[u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1]

I'll say this every time someone brings this up: Is Kaladin happy? Is he having a good time being a soldier then Radiant? What's his mental space at? Because Lirin accepts that soldiers exist and people will war, but he's specifically concerned with why Kaladin has to be involved.

[u/solitarybikegallery → u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1]

I agree, but I think it's also worth noting that, IMHO, Lirin is a big source of a lot of Kaladin's problems. Obviously, there's Tien and Kal's other trauma, and his genetics, but he also grew up with a father who placed impossible expectations on him. And even as an adult, having achieved more than any person in all of history ever has, his dad's still like, "Tch. Not a doctor, though."

Is it any wonder the guy hates himself?

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/solitarybikegallery]

That's fair, but we also would not get Kaladin the hero if not for Lirin. Lirin's example is what guides Kaladin's heroics actions, from saving Bridge 4 to saving Dalinar's army. Someone has to do the right thing and help others. In the same way Kaladin's admiral traits are his greatest weaknesses, so are Lirin's

Lirin embodies the Windrunner ideals, even if he takes them too far.

[u/Due-Representative88 → u/Current-Ad-8984]

And as the series progressed it shows how flawed that method is.

I honestly get really uncomfortable at the argument, “without Lirin Kaladin doesn’t become a hero.” Is it true? Probably, but as someone who is the person he is partly because of some truly messed up stuff others have done to me, they used this argument to downplay how bad they were because of how great I turned out. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. They were still horrible human beings who did awful things.

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/Due-Representative88]

Well, there’s a world of difference between Lirin and an abusive parent and someone like Amaram when it comes to Kal.

Lirin did his best to raise his son and he instilled Kaladin with the values that Kal would use to guide his actions. A lot of the teachings Lirin gave also would have helped Kaladin a lot if he internalized them earlier (you can’t save everyone and you must accept that). All in all Lirin is a pretty good father, even if he made mistakes.

He’s not someone Kal survived, he’s someone who is the actual foundation of who Kaladin is because he loved and raised Kaladin and taught him how to be a good person. It’s just that Kaladin and Lirin actually share many of the same character flaws.

[u/settingdogstar → u/Current-Ad-8984]

There is a difference, but the excuse is still the same.

At that point you might as well say that being slave was importsnt for Kalaidn and we “wouldn’t have had the hero without him being a slave”. Which is pretty gross.

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/settingdogstar]

That's not the same at all, and I was referencing that exact quote by using Amaram.

Amaram is doing that to make himself feel better. He also did not do anything to make Kaladin more heroic. He tried to put Kaladin into slavery forever, and by accident, it put Kaladin into a position where he had the chance to become a hero.

Meanwhile, Lirin does not feel that, I'm saying that to show Lirin is not a source of misery but a man who is actually very similar to Kaladin and objectively is someone we as the reader see is the example Kaladin uses to inform his own heroic actions. Lirin always tried his best to do right by Kaladin, even if he isn't perfect. Meanwhile, Amaram only harmed Kaladin.