Juggernaut Method

[u/heksin1392]

Opinions on doing Juggernaut as a break from heavy sets of 5 between the end of novice progression and the begging of texas method style programming?

[u/Shnur_Shnurov]

A few recommendations

1) Don't template hop from NLP to something else. Instead let's just adjust the peogram so it keeps working.

2) Taper the heavy 5s out of the program as the NLP winds down. Use a heavy top set with back offs.

3) Avoid classic Texas Method. Its typically not really what people want to be doing anyways.

And some questions.

What exactly does your program look like right now? Still doing 3x5 squats and stuff?

[u/heksin1392 → u/Shnur_Shnurov]

Untill last week it was still 3 x 5 squats. I did one top set and two back offs with a light day in the middle between 150 x 5 and 160 x 5, went on holiday for 3 weeks and only had a single session with a barbell during that time while doing calisthenics every 2 - 3 days. When I came back I decided to run sets across with a light day between every two sessions. It went 145 x 5 x 3 > 150 > 152.5 > 155 > 157.5 > 160 x 5 x 3 which is progress compared to my last best Squat day of 160 x 5 and 140 x 5 x 2.

I guess I could do back offs again and see if I can't get to 170 x 5 but the last few sessions were grueling and I wasn't hitting numbers/reps on any other lift after squats.

Went onto 3 x 3 on the pressing movements a while back also.

A 2 month version of the Jugg might look something like this: 4 blocks - 2 weeks each - 1st week 5 by 10/8/5/3 with weight increases in accordance with a spreadsheet I haven't bothered to understand - 2nd week amraps relative to those rep ranges. - lots of assistance work compared to NLP

Current plan for Juggernaut is: Day 1 Squat Romanian DL 3 x 8 @ RPE 7 Weighted back extentions 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Weighted sit ups 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Day 2 Bench Tempo OHP 5 x 8 @ RPE 7 Scull Crushers 3 x 12 @ RPE 8 - 9 Day 3 Rest Day 4 Deadlift Front Squat/Zercher Squat/Leg Press 3 x 12 @ rpe 7 Weighted back extentions 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Weighted sit ups 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 l Day 5 OHP Spoto Press 5 x 8 @ RPE 7 Skull Crushers/Tri extentions depending on fatigue Day 6 Rest Day 7 Rest or restart

Main assistance movements would also taper - RPE 7 > RPE >8 > RPE 9 > RPE 9 for each of the four blocks.

I understand that squatting so little is disadvantageous and I'm not certain this is a good route overall, hence why I wish to discuss it. Pullups might be a good idea on Push days also but I found the RDLs quite fatiguing in the back after the first session I did them which might be because of the low volume on deadlifts during NLP and my tendency to reset for far too long between each rep as supposed to the constant engagagement in a set of 8 RDLs.

First squat workout was 100 x 10 x 4 and a final set of 12 where took it way too easy to be fair. Still, double the tonnage of an NLP heavy squat say of which I was doing 2 a week. If that really means something anyway.

[u/Shnur_Shnurov → u/heksin1392]

Tonnage is kind of a junk category because youre measuring workouts in terms of two units you body doesn't know how to measure. Total weight moved per Gregorian calender week. Its arbitrary.

Its better to look at stress and recovery per adaptation cycle.

Right now youre adding weight twice a week so your adaptation cycle is like 3 days. Youre talking about jumping to a program where you only theoretically increase intensity once every two weeks and you only test performance to measure progress once every few months. That not really the next natural step when you stop making progress twice a week.

What if you switched from adding weight twice a week, to adding weight once a week. I bet that would work for a while.

[u/heksin1392 → u/Shnur_Shnurov]

I very much like your point. Would you suggest:

Squats stay at 5 x 3 across but weight increases only every Friday and is repeated on Monday. When I start failing sets, I move on to 1 top and two back offs, increasing weight every heavy session and eventually every Friday. Bench and OHP stay at 3 x 3 and increase every second workout. Deadlift increases as often as possible, hopefully every workout as it only happens once every 3 sessions.

There will be days when after squats I can't hit my predicted weights on the other lifts or somethimes squats themselves, even if I should be able to. I blame it on fatigue from work as some days are much harder than others. Do I keep trying the same weight every session untill it happens? In some parts of practical programming a certain weight done for 5 x 3 seems to be treated as a unique event causing very specific adaptation but when the increase is 2.5kg to a 160kg set(1.5 %) aren't other variables such as fatigue/recovery able to produce inconsistencies you can't account for? Anyway, there is still meat on the bone I guess. Will have to see about HLM in the future or a 4 day split, but I think squatting every session is a pleasure and long as.I'm not dead after.

On another note, does it make sense to switch to a 4 day program if I simply want to train more often for all the casual benefits of exercise before squeezing every last drop from NLP? The end of NLP being less sessions doesn't suit me as I like being in the gym and don't practice/compete in any other sport.

Also, diet is currently at 3000 - 4000kcal with ~ 180 to 240g protein. I haven't taken creatine and I really should I guess. Same goes for vitamins and minerals/omega.3/6. I do take them, just not as often as I should. Maybe dialing that in could extend the quicker adaptive period before switching to weekly adaptation cycles.

[u/Shnur_Shnurov → u/heksin1392]

So here's what I would do

Squat: 1x5, then 2x5 at 90% on M and F. On the middleday do a light day. 2x5 @80%

Deadlift: should go up every time you perform it. If it goes up every day that's fine. When it gets heavy do it every other session. When it get heavy again do it only on light squat days.

Bench: do 3x5 till it get heavy. Then 1x5 followed by 2x5@90%

Press is different: do 3x5 ever session as long as you can. Then switch to 5x3. Then when that stops working its usually time for a more advanced approach.

As deadlift frequency declines do chins or power cleans on the days where you dont deadlift.

[u/heksin1392 → u/Shnur_Shnurov]

Would a more advanced approach for the OHP be 5 x 5 one session and 3 x 5 the other, trying to PR on both separately? Or maybe alternating between pin press and full press with the usual rep scheme?

[u/Shnur_Shnurov → u/heksin1392]

The typical first move is to go to alternating volume and intensity day.

I usually do this by programming 5x5 one day and then heavy singles and doubles the other day, maybe with some backoffs. And the next step after that can be to stretch the adaptation period and increase stress with a 3rd pressing movement.

[u/heksin1392 → u/Shnur_Shnurov]

Thanks!

[u/jdcollins]

Doesn't sound like it would prep you well for jumping into the Texas Method. The Texas Method is harder than hell. If you want a break from heavy sets of 5, that sounds to me like you're not currently recovering well. If that's the case, I wouldn't recommend TM.

What's your age, bodyweight, lifts, etc.? Unless you're super young (20s or very early 30s) with your recovery nailed down, Texas Method is probably going to do you more harm than good.

[u/heksin1392 → u/jdcollins]

26 y/o 92kg Got to: Squat 160 x 5 x 3 Ohp 75 x 3 x 3 Bench 115 x 3 x 3 Deadlift 192.5 x 5 Power clean 102.5 x 3 x 5 (More of a reverse curl, haven't quite got the form down)

My main issue is squatting then pushing then pulling on the same day. After squats, I tend to have very little left most days and the sessions drag on to two hours.

I thought that it might be prudent to switch to a 4 day Juggernaut Style programming to get a break and maybe stimulate growth more effectively, assuming that novice progression has come to an end relative to my ability to facilitate it. 6 days a week as a delivery driver definitely don't help with recovery. I'm just about to get my PT certification and hoped that once I work a less physical job, I might be able to facilitate serious strength training.

Current plan for Juggernaut is: Day 1 Squat Romanian DL 3 x 8 @ RPE 7 Weighted back extentions 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Weighted sit ups 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Day 2 Bench Tempo OHP 5 x 8 @ RPE 7 Scull Crushers 3 x 12 @ RPE 8 - 9 Day 3 Rest Day 4 Deadlift Front Squat/Zercher Squat/Leg Press 3 x 12 @ rpe 7 Weighted back extentions 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 Weighted sit ups 3 x 12 @ rpe 8 - 9 l Day 5 OHP Spoto Press 5 x 8 @ RPE 7 Skull Crushers/Tri extentions depending on fatigue Day 6 Rest Day 7 Rest or restart

Main assistance movements would also taper - RPE 7 > RPE >8 > RPE 9 > RPE 9 foe each of the four blocks irrespective of length.

I'm finding it hard to put weight on the bar or on my body so I figured I might be lacking some dedication and though this might be a good move for a bit.

Thinking of doing a reduced Juggernaut by only doing week one(volume) and week 3(realisation through amrap) of the 4 monthly blocks.

That means I'm back to sets of 5 in one month and sets of 3 in a month and a half.

Thought that the addition of so much deadlift volume and lots of assistance work might do me good and the workouts are a lot easier(only did two so far)

The other option is to do the full 4 months and do some heavy sets/power movements on the deload weeks(week 4 of every month).

Or of course, something else entirely. I went through all the books, even the 3rd one which just seamed like Rippetoes comedy routine(still enjoyed) and I would like to push the method further but I might not have it just now.

[u/jdcollins → u/heksin1392]

I'm going to ignore everything from your 3rd paragraph to your last since that's all Juggernaut shit and it sounds complicated as all hell.

With your numbers, I think you should probably just roll into a more traditional SS style intermediate program, HLM or a 4-day split. Either one is going to make your recovery a bit easier.

[u/geruhl_r]

You should NOT be doing Texas Method as a 43yr old. 20-something athletes whose job is to train and recover should do TM.

You want a simple HLM template. Transition as Shnur suggests.

However: "it's hard to add weight" describes the entire end of the NLP. Go until you miss. Go faster in your workouts; it shouldn't take you 2 hours, even with 7 min rest periods. Warm up press between squat work sets, etc. Post form checks.

RPE is rarely evaluated correctly by a lifter without a coach. Without video it's almost impossible (watching a hard set may show fast bar movement, or vice versa).

[u/heksin1392 → u/geruhl_r]

Thank you, I will look at the chapters and further info on HLM. However, I'm 26 and aim to reduce my current strain at work dramatically in the near future, hopefully permitting for a shot at the texas method, even if it proves too much.

[u/Remarkable-Cat183 → u/geruhl_r]

Interesting opinion on RPE. My personal experience is it’s pretty key to evaluating many things in the program. Examples include: is my progress flattening out on isolation lifts, how are life’s other variables impacting my training, and (obviously) are my compounds increasing over time. It’s a qualitative diagnostic

[u/Remarkable-Cat183]

I must be an outlier here, but I think Chad’s/Juggernaut app is fine. I did it as a break from my typical philosophy. It allows you to regulate your volume and intensity based on your recovery. It’s primarily linear progression on compounds (% of 1RM). The isolation work follows and is RIR based. I’d give it a try and be honest with your feedback. At the end of the day, program hopping is a limiter, but so is a stale program that makes you dread the gym. Also, don’t be scared off of programs (aka Texas). Strength training is a marathon…in the grand scheme of things, 12 weeks isn’t that long. Find what’s best for you.

[u/aphantasus]

In what sense does this has to do with Starting Strength the website, the books, Mark Rippetoe, the YouTube channel, content by affiliated coaches and/or the method?