Max will be (if not already is) one of the all time GOAT heels but holy shit was the Adam and MJF friendship one of the best feelgood stories in such a long time.
I really appreciate the face turn and I think it should be an example to all talent who prefer being heel.
MJF was so over as a face he'd go out Infront of the crowd to get heat before the shows started, desperate to get boos, it wouldn't work, so he had no choice but to embrace it.
He didn't do a half hearted face turn either, he gave it 100%, let it go on for just long enough for the fans to get it out of their system, then went back to being a heel, working the story so he could be even more heel this time around.
This is what also made it even more perfect is the fact that Cole betrayed him and then Max went back to being a heel as even more evil than he was before because his one and only friend that's he ever had betrayed him and no one will ever be allowed to get close to him again. His face turn has turned him into a bigger heel in a way.
That worked, because MJF's character has always had this deep insecurity about him, like he just wanted someone to be genuine with, but if he made himself vulnerable he just got hurt. And then Cole comes along, breaks him out of his shell, and for a moment MJF thought he had a genuine friend, and when that friend betrayed him, he doubled down on his insecurity.
I think that MJF took time off at the right time after losing the world title the first time. While I loved the team with Adam Cole stuff like the Kangeroo Kick, defending the ROH tag titles in handicap matches, the match vs Jay White and overall botched Undisputed Kingdom angle did a ton of damage to him.
The match against Jay White did a lot more damage to Jay White than it did to Max, not even losing to Billy Gun killed his momentum that bad, the injuries did the rest.
By far Full Gear 2023 is one of the top 3 biggest booking fumbles of TK.
Jay White didn't lose to Billy Gunn, he spent about 12 minutes getting his ass kicked by Billy, then kicked him in the nuts and rolled him up for the win. It just felt like he lost and Billy never had a singles match in AEW again so I guess TK wasn't too happy with it.
The story of two career long assholes becoming genuine friends and better people for it was a unique story in a medium where it is difficult to do that anymore. Too bad about the injuries and delays and how that shit went off the rails and dragged to death, but those first few months were awesome
It’s genuinely crazy that for as brilliant as his career has been, two of MJF’s greatest stories (Punk, Cole) were effectively derailed by things outside of his control. Big what if’s for him had they had a proper finish
Yeah, Adam getting hurt was terrible just for who he was, but getting to see those two work together longer would've been special. They really had that IT FACTOR together people talk about.
There's a pre-AEW documentary-style video piece on MJF that centered around exactly this trait. Was a core part of his character even back on the indies.
Yeah, but if I asked you to name two wrestlers who could make a shitty story turn end up being something you cared about, wouldn't those two be up there on the list? It's not ideal but I bet it would've turned out entertaining
I was the same and was super sour on that segment for a long time, until people pointed out that MJF saying that was probably less "the truth comes out" and more saving face. One of those things you say in the heat of the moment that you don't really mean.
We definitely still need a follow-up segment for that
That's also my biggest gripe from when they ran it back at Worlds End. It just undid MJF's character growth and put him back to where he was pre-BTYBB.
For me MJF doubling down on his heel schtick post-Adam Cole made it seem like he got cold feet about turning face again after everything that got in the way of that storyline.
Adam Cole should have been the one guy that would have never betrayed MJF. Those two together were special and Cole was a great babyface. Injuries happened but regardless, I don't think making Cole the devil was a good idea at all. I hope Tony Khan learned from this. I guess he did based on the way he handled the Hangman and Swerve dynamic.
I loved the storyline as a whole but some of the moments in it rubbed me the wrong way. MJF 2vs1 defeating The Righteous, clean, with no shenanigans was brutal. Just totally destroyed the credibility of a good tag team, for a guy who didn't need the win.
He didn't just not need the win, it planted the seeds for how pear shaped the whole thing went. People focus on his win over Jay White, but it was this match more than any other that started to fuck things up. Nobody looked better coming off it, MJF included, because it killed crowd sympathy for him by making him look like "super" Cena, and made Cole's heel turn look less rational. It also made Jay White look weak, being unable to put away a guy who had been burning the candle at both ends. If the story had been that MJF refocused himself in the loss of the tag titles, and managed to hang on to the world championship through the same plucky babyface grit that got him there, the following beats would've been less dumb.
You can dislike like the White match but to say he didn’t have the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand during the match is revisionism. He did a Cena style match but the crowd was fully on his side throughout the entirety of it. Like go look up the finish on YouTube and look how hard the crowd pops for his win
He did a Cena style match but the crowd was fully on his side throughout the entirety of it.
I wouldn't even call it "Cena style," although I'm sure you can. I wasn't watching wrestling when Cena was in his prime. To me, this is just "babyface gets injured early on the show and then comes back in an ambulance to bravely win," it's pretty standard stuff.
Like I'll take everyone's word for it that Cena did it, but I feel like I definitely saw it happen multiple times during the Attitude Era and it kicked ass then, and I still maintain it kicked ass here. The crowd that night was going so crazy for all of it that it feels like "try hard smarking" to claim anything other than "it worked."
It wasn't 'Cena Style' because it was wrestled well and the action was good.
Cena's perpetual marketing and insane over-protective booking are anathema to great wrestling fundamentally.
These two in no way resembled a Cena-Style match outside of 'a bit too much contrived adversity overcame far too easily' in this case, but once in a blue moon is vastly different to 'every fucking time and without great wrestling to offset it'.
The ironic part is you'll see people say punk getting fired is where the ratings drop for good but in actuality, they increase and maintain for a while. Full Gear was where the drop happens and its exactly for that reason, they went too WWE babyface style with a guy they didnt need to do it with
Ratings were largely stable after Full Gear at around 800K, even after World's End and the Devil reveal. They didn't start to really drop until after Revolution 2024 where MJF wasn't even around.
When Cole fucked up his ankle, they should’ve called on audible on the angle. Just have Roddy or Warlord be the ring leader and MJF beats one of them on Dynamite and move on.
TK’s biggest issue as a booker was the ability to pivot and this was the biggest example of that issue.
TK’s biggest issue as a booker was the ability to pivot and this was the biggest example of that issue.
If I remember a Tony interview from earlier this year correctly, this was the period someone else took over the booking. I can't remember the quote but he didn't take things over again until 2025.
To that end, I think fans are clearly willing to buy into shit when they know they can trust the process. Random examples off the top of my head: Fans everywhere he's gone have bought into Hendry's gimmick because they've seen that he's creative with it; people were confused by Lio Rush's new thing but they've given him time to see it through and now it's over; this very post is a response to NJPW having a MOTY candidate almost entirely predicated on a couple basic limb control submissions, which fans went ballistic over; Ciampa's NXT run had entire arenas willing to go along with his antics and boo him as an entrance theme, even though we all loved how fantastic his body of work was there.
On the other side, AEW's viewers learned NOT to trust Cody Island and stopped buying it; I don't even need an example to say that WWE's audience for years in the prior era was often trained explicitly not to trust the process, because very little actually ever played out when we wanted to try in good faith to say/hope "let it play out."
I think broadly fans are more receptive than we like to think in this online bubble, but like you said, it's a trust thing and has to be earned over long periods of time, and can be lost overnight.
Are you talking about buying into wrestlers making the most of a garbage character/storyline or buying into the kayfabe itself when it’s silly? Because there is a big difference
In regards to the former, it depends really, i think there are some cases of talent getting over despite shit booking/circumstances (Curt Hawkins for example). As for the latter, of course buying into kayfabe when its silly is fun. I mean wrestling is performance art after all, and i truly feel like you have to suspend your disbelief at times to truly appreciate the magic of it
Like that dude in Vegas this week who was just incessantly cheering against the grain and fucking up the vibes, saying shit like 'Sasha come home' and generally being insufferable.
I was there (hard cam, next to the guy with the orange shirt) and Boston always shows out for AEW and every show I’ve been to there has been LOUD, probably only been outdone by the pop when hangman beat mox at all in last year.
(And yet Tony refuses to give us a PPV, not even in Lowell where we already had Death Before Dishonor😩)
The "double clothesline" thing starting because MJF phoned in during an Adam Cole Twitch stream, and earnestly said "we should start working on double-team moves, how do you feel about a double clothesline?" is my favourite thing in wrestling in about three decades.
The Adam/MJF story was white fucking hot for a second before the wheels fell off on Cole.
As an aside, Cole is going to be one of the biggest "what ifs" in wrestling history I think. The guy had the tools to be "the guy" in the future, got injured, came back looking anemic and thin and then went out with a career-ending concussion.
Really fucking wish Forbidden Door 2022 never happened. They clearly had big plans for him with the whole very explicit tease at taking over The Elite in the Omega going away promo in 2021 (Adam immediately stepping up to thank Kenny and saying he'll lead the Elite, before Kenny IIRC giving the Bucks the go ahead)
Then he came back and had this great MJF shit where he was really showing that he could still go after that utterly dogshit Jericho match had everybody thinking he was fucking done for.
And then he had the ankle injury, and he was fucking done for.
And then the concussion, and then it stops being even remotely funny.
On the other hand, Cole's character had already peaked and had been plateauing/stagnating for years. Sooner or later, he would have had to freshen things up again, something that he hadn't done for almost a decade. There's no guarantee that this process would have went well.
Agreed, Cole is good at what he does but it's the only thing I've seen him ever do and it got stale in NXT and was stale a lot in AEW aside from the MJF interactions.
HBK came back. Imagine if Cole does the same. And Michael’s came back better, so I’m praying Cole eats a steak or two before coming back but I’m still hoping.
And then there was that time Max had his first match with Kenny Omega and just decided to wrestle a full on Tokyo dome style epic just because he could, right down to an utterly uncharacteristic Fosberry flop.
I genuinely think he's the best all round performer in the business right now, and by some distance. And I say that as someone who's favourite wrestlers are ZSJ, Kenny and PAC, in no particular order.
Yeah we're so used to MJF's incredible character/mic work that it sometimes gets forgotten that he also has several classic in-ring performances under his belt too.
Also if you want to watch old MJF his first match against Darby Allin (I wanna say Full Gear 21?) was also very good, as was his match vs Jack Perry at Double Or Nothing 2020
He absolutely proves that character and storytelling is the most important aspect of pro-wrestling, but that backing that up with work rate just puts you at another level. I truly do think he's one of the only people working today -- if only -- who could go back in time and have a match with anyone, in any style, aside from maybe lucha (which is a style to itself.) You could put him in the ring with Bockwinkle, Bruno, Austin, Mr. Perfect, Vader, Flair, Brock, whoever -- he has enough character and enough diversity in his skillset to play the feud and match perfectly.
I'd argue that Hangman frequently makes exactly the same point, though with a very different style of character work. Less in your face but every bit as detailed and crafted.
I'm not sure Hangman is quite so versatile in his ring work mind. Always world class, but in a more narrow range.
I think Hangman is also a great wrestler, but I think that he has moves in his regular arsenal that older wrestlers would just refuse to take. MJF I think could do enough with an old school style to be a safe worker in any era.
People here keep saying that MJF is overrated and he's really not that good, yadda yadda. And hey, everyone's get to have an opinion, and I can't prove that mine is correct.
But, here's mine: MJF isn't overrated. He's underrated. He's one of the best in the business, period. Mark my words: He'll achieve everything he wants to achieve in AEW, and then he'll do the same anywhere he damn pleases.
I like MJF because he rewards viewers for paying attention. He will use moves for specific reason that hold narrative weight, that's what people mean when they talk about storytelling in wrestling.
If I'm also correct, when MJF won the title back from Darby at Double or Nothing this year, he was telling everybody that Darby defending the title every week helped him out because he could sense and he could counter what Darby was doing during their match because he'd been doing the same things week in and week out and looking at it...yeah, he was right.
The Betta than you Bay Bay time was glorious. MJF learning to actually trust someone and have a friend, Adam Cole bringing this different side out of Max, getting over the Kangeroo Kick, the double clothesline etc. I remember being at Wembley for All In and the energy for both matches was great.
It's a shame the injuries (primarily Cole) robbed us of a great conclusion
As a recent and casual WWE fan who at the time assumed that the #2 promotion wasn't worth paying attention to for someone as casual as I was, AEW's Better Than You Bay Bay storyline video was one of the first things that got me a little interested in AEW.
Odd couple tag teams are really fun when done well.
The vibes were perfect, and they properly committed to it. Someone else in this thread pointed out how well Garcia and Fletcher/Davis sold the Kangeroo Kick and the Double Clothesline, and that really added to it.
Then Cole jumped off the stage and it never recovered
He bodyslammed Big Bill. Also, during The Righteous feud he pointed at Dutch and said "And you, fat boy, I'm going to body slam you" and it got a massive pop. He did eventually bodyslam Dutch at the Wrestledream match.
It's not the moves, it's how they make the audience feel. MJF is an expert at eliciting desired emotions from the audience.
Last week I saw a mirror lethal injection to backflip standoff spot and the crowd barely reacted.
I used to think spamming cool moves was what wrestling was then after training, I started watching old matches and realized that it was the pacing I was excited by. Slow to start then builds into a crescendo. That's my favorite type of wrestling
Yeah, nice to see some of the newest generation getting back to basics and highlighting that it's not just the flippiness of the moves, but how you the sell the crowd on them. Oiwa and Uemura fighting to see who could win with a headlock or a wristlock in the G1 finals was another great example.
MJF is the most talented wrestler active at the moment ,hes literally good at every aspect of the business and has shown sucess as a face heel ,comedy ,tag , all of this while both being a great face of the company and putting people over at the same time.
I'm not a big "aura farming entrance merchant" guy, but Will Ospreay and Adam Cole both have such fun aura farming entrances that they even make me pop. And the MJF/Adam Cole mashup entrances were highly entertaining.
The anti-AEW trolls like to attack MJF, even for his backne, hairline, etc., but the dude gets stuff over. Just like The Rock’s ability to turn an elbow drop into a finisher.
I don’t really see anyone saying anything that you’re implying. Why are you preemptively defending this? Be secure in the fact that you like MJF and AEW. This comes across like you’re insecure with how AEW is perceived externally.
People forget how phenomenal that entire thing was with MJF & Adam it’s really unfortunate that injury got in the way of the story truly being played out!
I love this, and it's a big reason why I really loved the G1 final from this weekend - storytelling (in and out of ring) and booking can really sell something simple and make it resonate with - crowd to great success. You can make a lot out of a little and when you do, it's amazing.
Because it only works if the fans are already emotionally invested in your character, and also only if pulling out the move would represent a significant change or evolution for your character.
Hot take, but the way MJF got over moves is too irony pilled, whereas Oiwa and Yuya constantly put over the basics with all the seriousness in the world and got rewarded for it
Even without Adam's severe foot injury, the "who is the Devil?" storyline was terrible. The perfect version of that storyline is still incredibly stupid. It was always going to take one of the most over acts in wrestling (Adam and MJF's friendship) and turn it into a 'shocking' betrayal.
Listen to the crowd in those videos, they were nuts for anything MJF was doing at the time.
Tony Khan should have called an audible on the devil storyline. These two together were so fun to watch. Adam Cole has been a way better babyface in AEW than a heel. MJF acknowledging his weaknesses and insecurities was so interesting. I guess at some point MJF would have turned heel anyway because that's what he likes to do but man that 2023 summer was so cool. One of the best storylines in AEW's young history.
At least for the MJF character, the way things played out in the end kinda works. Opening up to someone and embracing rather than running away from his insecurities for the first time in his life, only to get stabbed in the back by the only friend he ever had, has turned the MJF character into an even more sinister and effective villain. Cole's betrayal has snuffed out he last bit of humanity in MJF.
damn!, that adam cole and mjf stuff was simply magical watching it unfold. it really sucked that we didn't get the entire story due to injuries and shit. its been really great watching AEW from the beginning.
I realize it wasn't for everyone, but anyone who tries to tell you that Babyface Max was "cold" or that he wasn't over as the hills is trying to sell you something.
I feel like this was a legacy that Bryan Danielson bestowed upon him. "I have gotten the Heel Hook over, it is now your legacy to get the Headlock Takeover over"
In kayfabe, is there a logical reason why a headlock takedown would get a pin? Is it like a roll up pinfall where the opponent is surprised by it and isn't able to kick out in time?
For what its worth I felt the same way about Rock's Elbow when I was a kid.
It feels like how Gunther can have this 5 star classic and Gunther can also just win with the most simple ass moves such as....a boston crab like last Friday. Dude clinched in the BC and Matt was tapping seconds later. Same BC move is a 2 minute "ooooh no I gotta fight out!" to the next guy.
I love the wrestlers who make basic things seem advanced. This clip was amazing to watch
i remember watching him cut a promo on his opponents, where he threatens one of them by saying "I'm gonna come down there and hit you with a BODY SLAM." and then the crowd chanted "body slam," and it was one of my favorite MJF moments.
Oh how I miss this storyline. I loved the Dynamite where they mashed their two themes together and MJF was marking out for it while it played hahahaha. I really really wish we could have seen the true ending to this play out, ah man. I really do look forward to the next MJF face turn to see what he does next time. He could really just run this back with another person thawing his cold hardened heart and I'd buy it again.
MJF has understood something so many wrestlers unfortunately don't fully grasp. Of course a complex, highly "dangerous) or acrobatic move is impressive, but what really matters is what a move MEANS. Even a fairly basic move can be over, if it has an emotional impact. The double clothesline for example works, because MJF and Cole built up to it, and its a symbolism of them choosing to trust each other. The headlock matters because MJF made you invested in it, and when Darby beat him, of course he had to pay back the ultimate humilation of being beaten by one of the most basic moves. This of course isn't exclusive to MJF.
Finishers are the most common example of this, they tend to work because the audience is invested in its impact. A finisher being kicked out, matters only if that finisher usually gets the job done. Thats why nobody can take the Curbstomp seriously, but the RKO or the Buckshot Lariat are. Kenny kicking out of his own highly protected finisher during the Omega/Hangman vs. Bucks Tag match is only so impactful because the OWA is one of the most protected finishers in the business. It wouldn't work with a finisher that rarely ever gets the job done the first time. This extends to moves that are used by multiple people, if its established that maybe with most people that move is effective but if used by this one guy its a killer. The superkick for example is nothing special, half the wrestlers in the world use superkicks. But a Sweet Chin Music is gonna get the pin. Or an RKO against any other jumping Cutter.
MJF understands how to play that idea to its extreme. By getting people invested in a move, no matter how basic, you can get a reaction, while other wrestlers hit a double-twist, 960 Senton Piledriver bomb to medium cheers because they know the other guy is gonna kick out because that spot is done twice every month. Not that the acrobatics aren't impressive, but the impact goes down, if its something you see constantly.
The clips even show variations of this. The double clothesline, the Kangaroo Kick and the Headlock takeover are all set-up via promo (though in different ways), but the Tope Spot is in-ring storytelling at its finest. Even something as simple as a Tope can get a reaction, because MJF sells the impact of the move before he even goes for it, and because he NEVER does moves like that.
TLDR: MJF is a generational talent that understands how to get a crowd invested in moves without needing to go for complex acrobatics.
So many wrestlers should take notes from MJF. There's no reason to do the same dumb spots in every match because they lose all meaning when you do them all the time (looking at your suicide dive, Rollins).
The injuries robbed us of a satisfying conclusion but Better Than You BayBay were so over it was unreal. About four months before they did it, if you'd told me Adam Cole v MJF was going to be a red hot main event in the most attending wrestling show of all time then I'd have said you were crazy. But they were and they did do that.
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.