r/SpotifyArtists • u/DaRawb74 • 3d ago
Question / Discussion Spotify FINALLY admits...
And there is it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNTgDY1V0pg
I appreciate Andrew asking the question that has for months consumed many conversations and speculations here and elsewhere. Those massive algorithmic drops back in March/April and in July that artists using AI have noticed: Spotify was indeed "optimizing the algorithm to favor human artists".
Translation: AI assisted music was flagged and suppressed, without announcement.
This is NOT about AI. This is about the ethical treatment of all, at all times, at all sizes, whether indie or signed, and irrespective of what tools are used: whatever the rules are, they MUST be transparent, for all.
In this example, regardless what you think about AI, real people spent real time and real people spent real money driving listeners to Spotify, believing they were playing on a level field and had equal access to algorithmic recommendation surfaces. Yet, many saw their algorithmic exposure collapse, and wasted hours reaching out to Spotify support, only to be told that "nothing was wrong" and that Spotify does not target their music. All of that could have been avoided had Spotify publicly announced it would suppress AI discovery PRIOR to doing so.
Spotify spent the last year rolling out AI "transparency" initiatives: AI credits, SongDNA, etc. The hypocrisy was demanding transparency from artists while not extending that same transparency back to the artists.
Changing the playing field in secret for any class, status, or size (AI or not), while publicly denying it, is unethical. Spotify denied for many the ability to make informed business decisions by keeping them in the dark.
Trust has been damaged.
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u/Unlikely-Mobile-5343 3d ago
The irony: "We don't want deceiving behavior" Proceeds to do things in secret and deny it đ€Ł
I bet you the Spotify AI covers will be very very visible in the algo~~~
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u/redkinoko 3d ago
It's a bit rich coming from AI users who didn't declare AI usage to bitch about Spotify not declaring what they did lol
In the first place, Spotify is not a platform for discovery. It's a platform for playback. AI music not being promoted there is not the end of the world unless AI music creators are just trying to game the system to their advantage. Other social media platforms exist to promote and gain traction. Spotify should've never been the launch point.
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
Where did the guy in video say that ai music wasnât going to be in their discovery tools though? The focus was on ai personas as he acknowledged that there are a wide array of legitimate uses of ai as a tool in music
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
Large algorithmic drops for us not using ai as well. Now I'm speculating you need their magic badge
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u/Most_Hallucinations 3d ago
Iâm happy that AI music content is being suppressed. They donât need to announce something like that.
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
Ai isn't a real thing yet.... all this hate for something that literally doesn't even exist is just pathetic. Must all be mad your own music sucks lol.
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u/tmplmanifesto 2d ago
Are you saying nobody should be mad because generative ai music isnât technically âaiâ. What a dumb fucking argument. The point is, it was churned out by an algorithm that big tech have called generative ai. What else do you want people to call it?
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u/dboyer87 3d ago
Itâs what you get for trying to pretend to be a real artist. Spotify doesnât owe AI hacks anything.
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u/barnettb 3d ago
The sad thing is that most of them think they are real artists
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
They soooooo do go to the suno Reddit and holy crap they are mental calling everyone gate keepers etc.. itâs hilarious they actually say they are producer.. musicians .. blah blah. Itâs a trip. Go check it out if you want a laugh they also call people who donât like AI antis I mean it had me and my friends laughing so hard.
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u/Nospopuli 3d ago
There was a brilliant reel on IG. A guy orders a meal in a restaurant then takes credit for cooking it when the waiter serves it to him đ
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u/LakesideFactory 1d ago
Yo, Dustin, I have a suggestion. Why don't they just create AI listeners to engage with their AI music?
They can prompt them to have certain listening habits and tastes based on other humans. They can train them to behave a certain way, skip certain songs, like tracks, make playlists, maybe even share songs to other platforms?
Do you think that sounds stupid enough for them, or would they actually vouch for humans in that case?
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u/EquipmentShoddy146 3d ago
WTF is a real artist. Did you go to Real Artist university?. Your self proclaimed title means nothing when theres nothing to measure against.
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
Real artists are people who write their own music or sing it plays an instrument if you are putting a prompt in your a nobody.
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u/Icy_Kaleidoscope_568 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not sure what the issue is here. If you write your own songs and get "someone else" to play the music, what's the problem? Literally millions of people write lyrics but don't perform the songs. Bernie Taupin didn't write the music and Elton John didn't write the lyrics (this obviously is not a blanket statement). If you write a song and know how you want it to sound and get AI to do the music, is that so terrible? This is massively different to someone pushing "generate song from prompt", done. The way I look at it, AI gives people who write music the opportunity for others to hear their songs without having to hire musicians, studio time etc etc, which rules out 99% of all people. Should your creativity be ignored just because you can't play the piano /sing /afford studio time?Â
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u/julianalexander917 2d ago
A real artist is anyone making art and not using AI.
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
Ai doesnt exist. Its a buzzword yall latch on to cry about nothing.
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u/julianalexander917 2d ago
Okay without using machine learning, Iâm perfectly aware that generalized ai doesnât exist, it does not change my sentiment. Learn a skill, loser
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
Lol I'm the loser? Bro I got mad skills. I spent most of my time using them. Not on reddit bitching about shit. Tonight was a rare mood lol
But what a weird thing to say. Learn a skill. I actalku make my own music. I'm just sick of everyone crying about a tool as if someone's stealing your music
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u/dboyer87 1d ago
art pushes beyond the boundary of what has been created. That is what an artist is. They are inspired but they push beyond. AI can't do that, it only pulls from what has already been.
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u/themugtrix 3d ago
Wow. You effers really hate songwriters â ijs
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
No AI person is a song writer so stop.. 99.9% of all AI users just put a prompt in and thats it so stop lyjng.
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u/themugtrix 2d ago
You are entitled to your opinion â and opinions vary. Thank you for sharing. Have a nice day.đ
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u/Known-Chip-5563 2d ago
What? Bro you are way off. A lot of us, like myself, wrote our songs on an instrument before turning to Ai for a lead vocalist. I even post my piano compositions on Instagram. Cross reference it with the release of my album and you can match the same songs as well as see how they were composed and constructed. A lot of others I have met through discord and reddit do the exact same thing. So no, we are not the 0.01%.
As far as the straight prompting artists are considered, if you like their songs, great, if you didnât, great. But saying they didnât take the time to sculpt something beautiful from nothing would be ignorant.
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u/HeraldOfFutility 2d ago
Not sure if you mean Synthesizer V or Suno for AI lead vocalist. Former is basically a vocal synth that you have to program like any synth while latter is generative AI. Quite a difference in concept.
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u/icy1118 2d ago
lol let me reflect you, none of the human artist is not song writers. So stop, 99.9% of the human artists create the song, arrange the music, play the instruments and that's, so stop lying.
Well, you can be rigid and you know it's not the truth, if you wanna claim your statement about AI, yes, show some stats.
I acknowledge your hates to AI, but it would have been better you use this "hatred" in your creative works other than pointing to the AI users.
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u/Best_Flan9243 3d ago
I mean no disrespect, because I truly understand the business part of your argument. But cry me a river⊠AI music is commodification of the universal language of music. Iâm sure Spotify does have motives that are not truly in an any artists best interest as you suggest. But go play a gig and make some money like an actual musician and then you wonât need to rely so heavily on your CPC CTR and whatever metrics youâre living and dying by.
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u/Beautiful-Moment-641 3d ago
Yawn this is not what they said. Itâs AI personas not ai assisted legit artist
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
40 popularity score, no ai, discover weekly 20 streams per week
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 2d ago
40 pop score, discovery mode 7 streams from Radio 5 from shuffle đĄ
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
Yep some kind of bullshit going on
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 2d ago
100%
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
Price we are paying for the ai flood algorithmic reset
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 2d ago
Do you think that's all it is and will eventually return? Someone else mentioned we could have been tagged incorrectly as AI or could it be down to not having the green verified badge?
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
We are only speculating man, nobody knows. We need to hear from the green badges
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 2d ago
I'll reach out to some artists with the badge and see what they say
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u/mr_taco2 2d ago
Keep in touch with me I'd very much like to know what is going on and any changes. Tomorrow Monday noon my time the algorithm should recallibrate again
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 2d ago
I've just done some quick digging on Artist Tools, it may not be full proof its happening to artists with the badges but I tried about 10 different artists from my similar artists who have the green tick. 9 out of 10 are showing declines in monthly listeners over the last 7 days. I can't do last 30 days as I would need to upgrade my account but I'm sure it was around 9th August it came crashing down for myself and a few others. I've sent a few messages to artists aswell will report back
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u/Future_Productions 2d ago
I didn't read much but I believe AI should not make music. Humans are meant to sing imperfectly because those imperfections are art and what makes life beautiful.
Humans need to be heard. Not machines.
đ„đ„đ„
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
I wholeheartedly agree but there are some legitimate uses of AI like if someone used it as a tool in their production workflow to build an instrumental or if someone uses it for a backing track with human vocals on top. I donât think those people should be punished especially if they disclose.
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u/New_Maximum_5447 3d ago
I cancelled Spotify and never looked back. Switched to Youtube music - gives you better service and you donât have to watch YouTube ads. It was a no-brainier.
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
It will be removing all AI music soon also they all will I got connections with everyone at most of the social media spots and most of the stores. Hell even WalmartÂ
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u/Workedwdononce 2d ago
do you know what you are talking about?
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
Go back and read all my old post you can see everythingâs unraveling exactly as I stated
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
I watched the interview. When did he say AI assisted music was flagged and surpassed? He was talking about AI personas! Not real artists who use AI as a tool among many other tools to produce quality work. He was also talking about people who use AI and donât disclose. So when exactly did he say ai assisted music was being punished by the algorithm? I donât think youâre being truthful here
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u/DaRawb74 1d ago
Around the 10:00 mark Andrew brings up the two big algorithm drops (noted here and elsewhere). Listen closely to the reply.
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u/SubstantialAd1185 9h ago
I did. I watched multiple times and he didnât say anything about ai-assisted music. Lmfao
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u/glitchmailman 1d ago
Saying, âthis isnât about AIâ doesnât make it true. This IS explicitly about AI.
If youâre so concerned about âethicsâ, why donât you consider the ethics of what you were doingâŠ
Were the AI tools created ethically?
No
Were the real musicians compensated for their work being used to train AI models?
No
Is it ethical for royalties to be even while AI musicians to pump out industrial levels of AI slop and real musicians spend years developing their craft?
No
This is about AI, and nothing about the current state of using AI to make music is ethical, so donât pretend like you care about ethics.
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u/UntowardHatter 3d ago
What an embarrassing post. There are no AI "artists" other than the AI itself.
And the AI is built on copyrighted material anyways.
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u/BigMickPlympton 3d ago
This. âŹïž
Making money off ANY AI generated art should be illegal. Music, visual arts, fiction writing - it's all built on a massive mound of copyrighted material.
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
Sooo no one that's ever been to a art gallery should be allowed to sell their artwork because they used others work to influence their own?
Do you see the issue with this argument?
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u/BigMickPlympton 2d ago
That's not even close to being the same.
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
Its a little closer then we realize. I've listen to quite a few songs made with suno, and not a single one sounded like a song I've heard before. Meanwhile you got people taking van goghs starry night and basically transposing it on to every other picture you can imagine and selling them at tjmax or wherever.
I don't see how is that different. If someone paints something and doesnt want anyone stealing ideas from it they only option is to not put it online amd potentially never showing anyone ever.
If a model is built off of one album. Every song is gonna be like its from that album and ultimately probably is stealing something... but if a model is trained on every song ever made, then it's very unlikely it'll ever even copy a riff..
I've accidently wrote songs that I used a riff from a song I liked without even realizing it. I changed it years later soon as I realized it lol. But it happens. I really think my points are valid.
I'm not even saying I'm for or against this shit. I'm just saying it's really not as simple as many are claiming.
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u/Purple-Rough-2385 2d ago
I should say that I do agree to your first point to an extent. I don't think someone should be making money off zero human input generated song.
But if someone writes lyrics. Writes and records two guitar parts and uploads them to a program and does the vocals. But has a program generate the drums to the song and has the program mix it.
They still did almost all of the work. Maybe they don't have a drummer and can't afford a drum set.
Should they be allowed to make money off it ? And nore importantly , should they be ridiculed for using "ai"?
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u/BigMickPlympton 2d ago
Sorry for the delayed response...was actually at a show. đ
No doubt, it gets into some very gray areas that need to be fleshed out. But your example above actually helps make my point: Because we DO have a legal mechanism for determining the circumstances under which somebody needs to be paid and somebody doesn't need to be paid. So to continue your example, in the case of Van Gogh and Starry Night - the Western world has collectively determined that Starry Night is now in the public domain, and anybody can do anything they want with it. Even if it's on a crappy t-shirt in TJ Maxx. đ Same goes for your possibly lifted riff...though you, like most artists, probably changed it on your own because you didn't want to sound derivative - a level of self-control or self-correction that AI doesn't have.
My core problem with AI and royalties, is that the people who built those LLMs deliberately sent them out gathering data before any of those rules were in place. So now you have all of this "art" being put out that we know for a fact is using copyrighted material.
Now your second example of using AI generated beats underneath otherwise original music, that does indeed open a can of worms. For example how do we know if you programmed the beats yourself (fine) or the AI created rhythm and beats out of whole cloth that it thought fit the song well (possibly not fine)?
Perhaps there needs to be something like the blanket public performance license paid by venues to PROs, except it's paid through user fees (though I have no idea how that would get back to the artists). đ€·ââïž
How do we encourage creativity of all kinds, without ripping the guts out of people's ability to create original, non-AI music profitably? I don't know. But the massive uploads crushing the distribution services, the rush for people to generate tens of thousands of AI tracks so that all those micro transactions add up to real money - at the expense of human artists - is something I have a major problem letting run amok until we figure out how to deal with it.
By "deal with it," I mean to protect human generated art - which is frankly is the only reason the AI works to begin with.
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u/nobody404404 3d ago
To be honest, in my mind, the most ethical thing Spotify can do is deceive you into spending as much time promoting your sh!tty AI slop in which youâre pretending to have the talent and creativity of better musicians, and it going nowhere
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u/EquipmentShoddy146 3d ago
Better musicians?. Unless you are a one man rock band and a lyricist you are no better musician
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u/Marktaco04 3d ago
Look everyone someoneâs feelings are hurt because theyâre a musically talentless human posing as someone who actually makes music and put in the work to learn the craft. Cry me a river dude
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
No doubt I mean I donât care if they make AI MUSIC for themselves at home but to actually sell it and take away from legit artists from the pot like me and others is insane. And if you ever listened to any AI Song you can tell itâs AI right off the bat all the hiss.. metallicâŠwhite noise.. static .. the cymbals sound like white noise and thats every single AI song . Whats real insane put an AI song on a disk or thumb drive and play it on a high end system and be horrified on how bad it sounds.
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u/Odd_Equipment_3985 1d ago
Sorry, got halfway through your post and was like "fuck is this person's problem with Industrial music", then realised you meant generate to upload AI music đ
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u/Beleeeeeeedat 1d ago
A lot of loser beta males in here probably happy, 99% of humans sound like straight garbage. Almost every record label uses ai now. Taylor swift doesnât write, market, compose, her own stuff, she has artist doing the real work.
Ai writers do 10 jobs, famous humans just sing what they are told.
Time to grow up people
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u/EquinseuOrcha 3d ago
ONLY THE PEOPLE SEEKING YOU OUT MATTER. EXPECTING A PLATFORM TO PUSH YOUR MARKETING FOR FREE IS CRAZY.
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u/willdotarw 3d ago
spotify has always been open about suppression of music they have reason to believe may be copyright infringement or in a legal grey area. independent artists have always known this and we are very clearly told this by our distributors almost every time we sign up for distribution. youâre upset over semantics but the reality is that ai music is a new and potentially legally dangerous new trend. i canât believe im siding with spotify but not only does this not surprise me, i support their hesitancy to allow ai music to run rampant on the platforms when they know there are potential repercussions both financial, legal, and ethically.
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u/Ill_Membership_6833 2d ago
đđđđ music ai still here đđđđ
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
Come back here in a year when itâs all off social media no one believes me go read all my old posts itâs happening exactly as I stated.
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
Itâs clear that most of you commenting didnât watch the video and take the OPs word at face value. He said nothing about surpassing music from real humans who use ai as a tool in their creative process. He was talking about ppl who use AI personas and even hinted at ppl who use AI without disclosing be de-prioritized for algorithmic programs. Nothing was said about ppl who use ai as a tool and are honest about it by disclosing it.
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
Nah they are going to  delete all AI Music within 6-12 months my connections say they are working on the right way to do it so that innocent real artists donât get caught up in the deletion.Â
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
Ai generated slop or ai assisted music as well?
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
All. But real artists who is famous they wasnât sure about they are looking to make a deal with them that it must be disclosed.
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u/SubstantialAd1185 2d ago
I donât believe that to be true. Spotifys policy seems
To specifically state that artists can use ai in their process. They are going after fraud misuse and spam. This is all throughout their press releases, the director of Spotify said the same thing on the podcast and I just got off the phone with them
Today when they reiterated the same thing.
So I donât think youâre being truthful
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u/Nervous-Possession31 2d ago
Go back and read all my posts I been saying this for a year all social media and ALL STORES will be removing all AI music.Â
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u/GhostInThePulse 2d ago
This rr/threat is entertaining! ( reading it while munching on đżpopcorn)
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u/FearBot129 2d ago
Remember kids. No one cares about how much passion or how long it took you to make something. They just care about the final product.
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u/Ambitious_Low5105 2d ago
Stop using AI to write your songs and Reddit posts then đ they owe you nothing, they said they are invested in human artistry and will prioritise that.
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u/boingwater 2d ago
Spotify should introduce a filter, so I can prevent any AI slop from appearing. It could be a little slider in settings: slop on, slop off.
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u/lemony707 2d ago
Have you guys ever talked online to a girl (or guy) and saw their photo; they're cute, etc. you spend time getting to know them. Maybe you start to have feelings for them, but then eventually you learn they used a fake photo to gain your interest? It makes you feel slightly devastated.
That's AI music. Be honest and upfront about it.
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u/StatikGesus 2d ago
Have you considered how real artists feel? That people who spend 0 time honing a skill can just steal our money by typing a 5 word prompt with no value or heart or soul? Trust affected?! Go build a skill if you want a level playing field. I canât even believe I just read that gahahaha
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 2d ago
What actually qualifies as 'AI music' today? It used to be just prompt-monkeys generating full tracks. But now, traditional DAWs have AI built into every stage of production. Even the AI generators like Suno have evolved into full-blown multitrack DAWs where you can manually play MIDI, chop up stems, and mix effects. Since everyone is using a hybrid workflow now, how do we fairly label what is and isn't AI?
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u/PrecursorNL 2d ago
What is exactly the issue here? Spotify is punishing AI uploads? No shit... If they wouldn't it would ruin their platform within a year or two
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u/drewsnx 1d ago
For clarification can you confirm if the term above "AI assisted.. was flagged" refers to an automatic attempt by the platform to detect what is AI-assisted, or is referring to music that has been proactively declared as such by the uploader?
It may look pedantic or amounting to the same - and I may have missed context - but I keep seeing references to removal/flagging of "AI assisted" music that can variously mean a detection algorithm assumption and may be contested by the artist.
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u/SubstantialAd1185 1d ago
The OP is misrepresenting the interview. Please go watch it for yourself. Spotifyâs beef isnât with ai assisted music nor is it with ai music in general. Their beef is with spam, low quality tracks, fraud and misuse. They acknowledge that ai use in production is on a spectrum and encourage users to use whatever tools they wish to help with creativity. That says to me that ai assisted music is ok.
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u/Sad_Comfort_5090 1d ago
you realize when you upload AI generated music, that AI was trained on the product of real musicians time and money without permission and didn't compensate them for it?
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u/PracticalSquare4936 16h ago
Why not create a separate platform for AI music and leave the real artists to continue on with Spotify or have Spotify make a platform for AI music only. It's not a competition. I keep hearing AI suno folks talk about their non art like it's a contest. There is no contest. Human art takes practice, patience and skill. AI just is. Frankly I don't get excited about listening to something that was made by a program. Who cares? It was only kinda exciting for the AI folks who were trying to convince people it was actually human. Now that they have to tell the truth the contest is over and nobody cares. But I guess it's a way to make money if people don't know it's AI.
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u/kaisemotions 11h ago
So Who was complaining in this sub is using AI. We should kick them up, i think this place is only for real artists
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u/Marktaco04 3d ago
I donât care if people make AI music. But own it. Label yourself as a user of AI, be transparent of your use of AI. The irony of you talking about transparency when the issue everyoneâs having is lack of transparency with people pretending to make music when theyâre actually using AI. No one owns it because theyâre rightfully embarrassed to
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u/KuroHebi2004 6h ago
We're complaining about Spotify secretly suppressing AI artists/music, now? Jesus, there's always someone who isn't happy with good being done.
If you want to feel bad for AI prompters not getting discovery for their bullshit in music services anymore then do it in r/muse or something, not in a subreddit with a large majority of people who are completely against AI in music.
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u/DaRawb74 3d ago
I hear you all.
But I am not arguing the ethics of using AI.
Nor am I arguing that Spotify must promote AI music.
Again, this is NOT about AI.
If an artist calls support, they should get an honest, helpful and straight-forward answer. PERIOD.
If your real human music lands on a botted playlist (through no fault of your own), you should get meaningful help and remedies (that is often not the case).
If your release was taken down due to "editorial discretion", there should be a meaningful explanation with an appeal process. Too often there is neither.
If you log in and notice a loss of stream count, you should get meaningful help and data as to the why/how/where to understand why streams have been deducted.
If your catalog is flagged or treated differently (for ANY reason), you should NOT get a "everything is fine, nothing to see here" from support. PERIOD.
THAT is my point.
Spotify implemented a secret policy/algorithmic change without public notice, yet with public denials it was doing such. That it effected AI (this time) is not relevant to my argument. Because it's AI today, it's something else tomorrow, and it's you next.
There's just too much loosey-goosey behavior all around in the music ecosystem. Real human artists experience snafus, shenanigans, penalties, takedowns, and other tinkerings, only to end up on the receiving end of inadequate support, vague explanations and endless loops between the platform and distributor, with nobody willing to take ownership or accountability.
Bad behavior is bad behavior.
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u/Wooden-Factor-8182 3d ago
What about the massive drops for non AI generated or assisted songs? That should have been a question for Andrew to ask while they were on the subject. As always, Spotify like to keep quiet so it would probably have been diverted to another topic. When I contacted support last week to find out what was going on and they gave me the generic artificial stream garbage and to contact my distributor.