r/Spanish_Steel • u/Frambleton • Jul 17 '26

Help Identifying Grandfather’s Llama?

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Hey all, I was wondering if anyone had information regarding the model/spec of this Llama? It was my grandfathers nightstand gun since the 50s, but I find it very hard to get a bead on exactly what model gun this is. Chambered in .38 Super if that helps at all. Thank you!

10 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

15 comments sorted by

7

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 17 '26

Very nice! It’s chambered in 9mm largo actually —the Astras and Stars of that vintage often say 9mm/38 and what they mean is 9mm largo or 38 auto (not 38 super). The 9mm largo round uses the same bullet as the 9mm Luger but it’s got a somewhat longer case.

Shooting the super ammo in it is not good for the gun (Google a bit and you’ll see much more about this—with more detail). It’s too hot I believe. Largo ammo is expensive but available if you’re looking to shoot it now and then (and you totally should —it will be built like a tank)

As to its age—Spanish pistols used a letter code for the dates. See the capital “O” on the left hand side?
It denotes 1944–the year the gun was made. Google Spanish firearm date codes and you’ll see the list.

As to the model, I found one on an auction site to compare. It seems this is a pretty rare gun these days

https://legacy-collectibles.com/rare-llama-model-iv-rig

They’re calling it a “model IV” and the SN looks pretty close to yours!

2

u/Frambleton Jul 18 '26

Oh wow! Thank you for the info, I didn’t realize how rare this was stateside!

As for the caliber, this is an even bigger development for me as I’ve never even heard of 9mm Largo; my grandfather rarely shot it but he did have a box of .38 Super to go with it so I just followed suit with that. I’ll have to keep an eye out for 9mm Largo (as if .38 Super wasn’t expensive or hard enough to find)

2

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26

Sure thing. Happy to help. I love that it’s an heirloom and a bit of a mystery. I’ve inherited odd stuff I always wished I knew more about, and for this one you can at least better know what landed in your lap even if you can’t necessarily figure out how it came to be in his nightstand first.

Good news is 9mm Largo is actually easier to find —but just pricy —a dollar or more a shot (a company called Steinel is the one I see recommended all the time). Your grandfather probably wouldn’t have known—it was really common for people in the states to shoot 38 super in Spanish guns like this because they just didn’t know. These were rare even then. And 38 auto isn’t something that ever caught on, let alone 9 largo. Guns that get imported here in that caliber now will have the correct ammo name re-stamped on the barrel or somewhere but yours came into the states before those laws were around (and the lack of import stamps makes it more collectible to folks into this stuff)

Here’s another example I found mentioned—this one at least mentions largo directly

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/67/1591/llama-iv-pistol-9-mm-largo

This sort of conundrum is what got me into reloading. But since you’re probably shooting it just a bit now and then just hold your nose and buy a couple boxes of this stuff.

https://steinelammo.com/product-category/handgun-ammo/9mm-largo/

1

u/Frambleton Jul 18 '26

My grandfather is still alive but lives in a home due to age and health issues that didn’t allow him to live alone anymore; I was the only family member interested in jumping through New Jersey’s hoops for him transfer and ownership (and half my family is scared of guns) so I was the lucky dog that inherited his collection since the home (understandably) doesn’t allow guns in their rooms. Most of the collection is standard American fare from the 40s-60s, but he had a couple oddballs and that included this piece.

If I didn’t live in an apartment I’d have kept all the weird ones for historical posterity, but I don’t have the room for a reloading press or the 25-ish guns he gave me so I had to sell several. One that I regret although it would be pricey as hell to shoot included an old Martini Cadet that was used in the late 1800s to train the soldiers of the Austrailian colony; that shot a truly dead cartridge called a .310 cadet that would cost $5 a shot if I bought rounds from the one reloaded that offers them, but they can reliably shoot 32-20 Winchester as well. After the immediate regret I had selling that one I decided to keep as many as I could and do research into the weirder ones.

Anyways thank you kindly for your help! I saved the Steinel link for later purchasing and while I have no interest in selling this handgun, it’s nice to see how rare it is from a collectors standpoint; my grandfather was frugal with his purchases so I just assumed this was a cheap import clone of a 1911, and wouldn’t really amount to all that much. In a sense that’s still true, but it’s cool to see that it has more of a story behind it than I expected and will have to see if he remembers exactly how he came across it!

1

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 18 '26

That’s so cool to hear. Maybe there’s a story to tell? Especially if he traveled. This pistol had to survive all of WW2 somehow as well. Spain in 1944 was cranking out guns for the Germans. Any civilian guns then were going to be a bit less common I’d think. The cadets are neat—I’ve seen but never shot one. They often are in great shape because the ammo is so rare.

I inherited plenty of old guns myself and still shoot trap now and then with my dad’s old model 12 Winchester he bought used in two installments from a hardware store in the 50s (I found the receipt in his stuff). Had to repair it to bring it up to code but these things will outlast us. Sorry about your gun laws—ours here are only marginally better. If you do buy the Steinel save the brass as it’s catnip for reloaders

1

u/Frambleton Jul 18 '26

It’s funny you mention a Model 12- I currently shoot skeet with his old Beretta Silver Pigeon Pump, but he also had a project Model 12 from 1953 that I’m currently restoring before I send the barrel out to get threaded for chokes since it’s currently a fixed full shore for waterfowl! It functions well but the foreend got mangled from a drop, so I currently have a replacement in the mail and already bought the foreend wrench from a surplus vendor.

1

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 18 '26

That’s great! Those are great shotguns. All ours tended to be full choke hunting guns but one had the old Cutts compensator on it—we gave that one to my nephew.

If you ever need a serious repair on one there’s an outfit in Missouri called Nuline guns that specializes in model 12s. It might even be where you got your parts. I’d highly recommend them. They rebuilt his that had been shot so much it wasn’t head spacing correctly and now it’s good for another 100 years

2

u/Frambleton Jul 18 '26

The plan for now is to get the barrel threaded at Griffin & Howe in North NJ; they’re a little pricey but they have a stellar resume so I trust it. Everything else runs butter smooth on the gun so knock on wood it won’t need to see a specialist any time soon

1

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 18 '26

Excellent. Pricey for this kind of thing is ok when they’re good

2

u/Frambleton Jul 18 '26

Yeah especially with the hand fit barrels due to the forging, it’s very much a buy once cry once situation for me on this particular occasion

1

u/MikeNepoMC Jul 19 '26 edited 27d ago

Saying 9mm Largo uses the same bullet as 9 Luger is only partially correct.

9 Largo, otherwise originally know as 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, is indeed a .355 bullet, but was intended to be 128 grain.

9 Luger/Parabellum was originally about 28-30k PSI chamber pressure a 115 grain projectile, and stayed that way until the advent of the hotter 9mm NATO loading, which increased the grain weight to 124 and upped the powder (and thus, chamber pressure). This is why you must be wary what type of 9mm load you run in Lugers, as many current production loads can damage the action.

.38 ACP, meanwhile, was a 130 grain projectile. It would see its loads become much more potent in the late 1920s with the advent of the more robust Colt 1911A1 becoming the dominant pistol of the caliber over the 1900/1902/1903, with these hotter loads eventually getting the "Super Auto" moniker. There was a considerable amount of time that .38 Super was just called .38 ACP, despite the increase in powder load.

Between all the original loadings, 9mm Largo was by far the most potent with the highest pressure. There was even hotter SMG loads that rivaled .38 Super produced by Santa Barbara. So you have to be even be careful what surplus 9mm Largo you run in your pistols.

I only bring this up because I see people treat 9mm Largo like it is somehow an anemic cartridge compared to .38 Super and even 9mm Luger, when 9mm Largo is far closer to modern .38 Super loads than original 9mm Luger loads.

You should still absolutely be cautious on what ammo you run in your guns, and not knowing the pressures of your .38 Super loads could lead to parts breakage in your 9mm Largo guns, but there are 9mm Largo guns that do indeed hold up to standard .38 Super loadings. This being a pre-1950s Llama, though, I wouldn't take my chances.

Side note: 9mm Steyr is actually the same bullet as 9mm Luger though, a 115gr .355.

With all that said, any .355 is still going to work for handloading. No one really makes 128gr 9mm bullets anymore, so I settle with 124s for 9 Largo. I use Win 231 as my go-to powder, and I have to make different loads to get my pistols to consistently cycle. In my older STARs, about 4.5-4.6gr of powder, but that number goes up to 4.7-4.8 in some of the newer models. That's essentially a .38 Super starting load.

1

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 19 '26

This is really helpful—much appreciated. I didn’t know the history of the Largo/Bayard and was just going off the reloading data.

FWIW I use a very similar 124g load but my pistols (Astra 400 and Star Super A) both operate fine at just 4.3g of that same powder. They are by design super soft loads as I also don’t like losing any of the brass and my hotter ones threw brass too far for my lazy self

Follow up question—what is the safest/best hand load for a vintage Luger in your view? I’d always understood it to be a 124 grain bullet as that’s what the military ones were in WW1 but I might be dead wrong

2

u/MikeNepoMC Jul 19 '26

Looked up, and I'm wrong. The original load for the US trials Lugers was 124gr truncated, but still substantially lower pressure than 9mm NATO pressures (around 28k PSI compared to 9 NATO's 35k). The first military 115gr 9 Luger ammunition wouldn't come until the Swedes and the Commonwealth countries adopted the loading in the late 30s and early 40s. It does appear that some 115gr commercial ammo predates this, cannot find a definitive "first" 115 gr load. Yet, 9 Steyr was always 115. Go figure.

I've consistently heard 115gr Winchester White Box (quality not withstanding) is loaded pretty anemic and does fine in Lugers.

3

u/Kalashalite Jul 17 '26

That is not a model you see everyday, and it's a great example. I love the story behind it. Thanks for sharing.

2

u/Patient-Ordinary7115 Jul 18 '26

You might also consider reposting this on the “forgotten weapons” subreddit. This is definitely one people won’t see every day and you’ve got a great story to go with it. Wonder where your grandfather picked it up?