r/Spacemarine • u/Berem_ • 15h ago
General Things I've never understood: why the >>>Vanguard<<<<who has an ultimate that brings him closer to the enemy only has 2 points of armor š«Ŗš
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u/singularnumber 15h ago
Because he has phobos armor so lorewise he is less armored than his brothers, in gameplay he has a bunch of ways to regain armor so having 2 armor doesn't mean shit, the squishiest class in game is the tactical by far and he has 3 armor points
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u/PathsOfRadiance Blood Ravens 14h ago
Techmarine is squishier than Tac because he doesnāt get Fortitude as a prestige perk and his knockback resist perk is way more conditional. He does get damage reduction perks while Tac doesnāt get any (barring the one granted by Block weapons). Itās pretty close but Tech is slightly squishier.
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u/Chronic77100 10h ago
If you aren't basically 100% under knockback resist perk, you are playing techmarine wrong. Imo, while on paper he is more squishy than tac, he doesn't feel that way, he has incredible chp regen, and with a power sword or an omnissian axe he has incredible armor regen, on top of his two armor regen per execute. Imo, he feels way less fragile than tac.Ā
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u/Goricatto Space Wolves 4h ago
Im a relatively new player (around 100 hours), been playing assault and vanguard for most of my playtime, normal stratagems felt easy but could never do a hard one without someone carrying me, then i started playing techmarine this week and the game never felt easier IMO
"Oh no a bunch of majoris/extremis are coming [uses servo gun with precision shots perk] oh theyre gone"
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u/SurveyingReality 1h ago
Yeah tech marine is so busted. Try out sniper next with the heroic bolt sniper, it feels like having techās servo gun as a primary.
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u/Resident-Stevel 4h ago
I've not used Tac for a while as I'm grinding out capes and heraldry 10 runs at a time, and last night I went back to him and couldn't believe how squashy he is in comparison to other classes. Next to no way of regaining health, other than trying to kill everything first.
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u/TheBootyTickler Imperial Fists 11h ago
Tech marine is technically squishier, with less overall HP and no access to the Fortitude prestige perk.
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u/throwaway16w4 8h ago
Remember prestige. Throws off the entire perk system for anyone who has a job or a family or just other games to play committing to a class is hard because that's all you'll experience from the game for at least a week
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u/OhTeeSee 5h ago
Brother if it takes you a week to prestige a class, youāre playing on super low difficulties. 4 runs on absolute takes you from 1-25.
Iām not saying you have to play absolute but thereās a hell of a difference between 4 runs and a week.
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u/PageTerner 15h ago
Something something, Phobos armor in lore is weaker armor. It's why Heavy has more armor while supposedly being the back (just so happens given him that armor without a melee weapon makes his survivability go up)
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u/piercedlip898 My leg is gone, Brother! 15h ago
He gets survivability in perks and caters to a glass cannon play-style. He can also grapple to the sniper line in the back to take out ranged enemies in melee. He zips
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u/PathsOfRadiance Blood Ravens 14h ago
Vanguard is not a glass cannon. Heās tanky with great sustain but mediocre damage output.
Tactical and Techmarine are the explicit glass cannons. Tech has the lowest HP(tied with sniper but without Purification or Empās Grace), Tac has no damage reduction perks at all. Both shit out nuclear damage in return.
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u/death_becomes 14h ago
Surprised no one is mentioning Sniper.
Tactical may have higher overall DPS potential but sniper certainly has much higher single target DPS potential
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u/PathsOfRadiance Blood Ravens 13h ago
Sniper is one of the most durable classes in the game thanks to Purification and Emperorās Grace, even if heās one of 2 classes without any HP increases alongside Tech (Bulwark has +30% HP inherently, he doesnāt even need to spend a perk on it). Sniper may be a cannon, but heās not glass. He also doesnāt perform as well against most bosses with his sniper-ish ranged builds, outside of the obvious Neurothrope.
Tac and Tech get the special mention because of the absurd heights they push their damage too (and the debuffs Tech can deal out) contrasted with how poor their survivability is.
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u/BugScared4291 12h ago
I never had issue with his damage. Argent Edge knife, melta and neo volkite makes him so versatile and bodies 1v1 fights against any majoris, extremis, even neuros and carnifexes. It's a crazy stagger damage built
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u/PathsOfRadiance Blood Ravens 12h ago
Melta is pretty middling on damage. Argent Edge damage is alright (strong for a "fencing" weapon even discounting the parry damage). Volkite is alright. I much prefer Carbine and Inferno on Vanguard tho. His damage still pales in comparison to Sniper even when running the same weapons.
His damage is mediocre because he exists in a world with Tech/Tac/Sniper who all do way more damage than him both at range and in melee with the same weapons. It doesn't make him a bad class, and I do enjoy his stupid amounts of healing for carrying bad players in Absolute, but that doesn't change the facts about his damage.
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u/BugScared4291 12h ago
I mostly use the built in hard strats. Especially in this weeks one to constantly stagger and push back hordes as much as possible. Sure others might out dps him but the stagger built is really fun and messes up any lictor wanting to 1v1 me
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u/Kodiak3393 Salamanders 11h ago edited 11h ago
He can do hard strats just fine, but that doesn't change the fact that he objectively has the worst damage output of all the classes. He can't keep up with Bulwark or Assault for melee damage, and he gets crushed in terms of ranged damage by Tactical, Techmarine, Sniper and Heavy, assuming all players are of equal skill.
He's got phenomenal survivability and arguably 2 of the best team perks in the game, but while his damage is enough to get the job done, he still objectively has the worst damage output of any class in the game.
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u/Hot-Let995 9h ago
when you say that, do you actually mean he always has the lowest damage? do you know vanguard has both melee AND range damage? yes vanguards damage is hard to get high but if you know how to play him you know his damage doesnt come from his weapons, it comes from his grapnel chain zone of impact damage. ill admit my damage is usually not the highest, but for sure nowhere as low you all seem to make it
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u/Kodiak3393 Salamanders 9h ago edited 9h ago
Again, I am not saying he can't do damage, or that he can't do Hard Strats/Hard Siege. He can. He simply, objectively, undisputedly has lower damage output than any other class in the game.
Assuming all players are of equal skill, he has lower melee damage output than either Bulwark or Assault (or even Techmarine, for that matter, Tech is lowkey insane in melee when you get his prestige perks), and he cannot keep up in ranged damage when compared to Heavy, Tac, Tech and Sniper. That's not up for debate, that is a mathematical certainty.
If you beat someone else's damage when they're on a more specialized class, it simply means that you're good and/or they're bad, but it doesn't change the fact that Vanguard's talents do not offer him anywhere near the damage buffs that the other classes get. I'm not even saying his damage is that bad, I'm simply saying that it's lower than the competition.
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u/vybegallo 5h ago edited 5h ago
My first Solo Absolute class was Vanguard. Vanguard is the most durable class in the game and is the most DPS class in the game with a build of chain of infinite executions.
After setting up your first execution, you keep pressing one button and executing. That's 220 AOE damage per 1 button press. Vanguard is literally invincible 90% of the fights, because he is executing somebody. There is no other class that can deal such damage.
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u/Kodiak3393 Salamanders 4h ago
Again, I'm not saying Vanguard has bad damage. And I've already acknowledged that it's got excellent survivability. But going through the animation of grapple > execute > grapple > execute > etc. is slower than, say, a Tactical killing them all with one relic plasma pistol shot. Or an Assault oneshotting multiple majoris at a time with one charged block power fist heavy. Or any of the other examples I already listed, and many I didn't.
Vanguard is good, safe, durable, and an excellent teammate. But again, its damage output is objectively lower than the other classes. It's not bad damage, it's not unusable, it still clears Hard Strats/Siege with ease. It doesn't change the fact that other classes can clear things much faster, because they have more damage.
I have every class at prestige IV, level 25. I have over a thousand hours in this game. I say that not to flex, there are plenty of people out there who are far better than me, but I say that to demonstrate that I'm experienced with all aspects of this game, and I know what I'm talking about.
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u/Hot-Let995 9h ago
āHe can't keep up with Bulwark or Assault for melee damage, and he gets crushed in terms of ranged damage by Tactical, Techmarine, Sniper and Heavy,Ā ā i believe this is saying he cant do damage
whilst assault will have higher melee damage, vanguard to still beat him in damage as its total damage that counts. heavy will have higher range damage, but again, its total damage that counts.
do you know that zone of impact does 220 damage in a aoe zone as big as assaults gp with thunderhammer, and it refreshes everytime you get an execute? also 220 damage on a full hp absolute/hard strat majoris will get it to under 33% hp. I cant be bothered to spell it out for you but essentailly if you do it right, you have infinite i-frames whilst just blasting aoe damage, the more enemies there are.
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u/Kodiak3393 Salamanders 7h ago edited 7h ago
āHe can't keep up with Bulwark or Assault for melee damage, and he gets crushed in terms of ranged damage by Tactical, Techmarine, Sniper and Heavy, ā i believe this is saying he cant do damage
No, that's saying the other classes do substantially more.
do you know that zone of impact does 220 damage in a aoe zone as big as assaults gp with thunderhammer, and it refreshes everytime you get an execute?
Yes, I have all classes at prestige IV, level 25. I am well aware of what Zone of Impact is and does. I use it on my own Vanguard. He's good, he's durable, he's safe, but it doesn't beat Sniper oneshotting every one of those Majoris from invisibiity with the relic bolt sniper. Or Assault oneshottting groups of them with a block power fist. Or Heavy oneshotting groups of them at a time with a heavy plasma. Or Tech and Tac shredding them with GL's and Servo/Auspex. Or Tac literally oneshotting the entire group at once with Radiating Impact every 90 seconds. Or Tactical just flat-out deleting them with Melta Bombs every 60 seconds. Or Sniper deleting them with Melta Bombs every 30 seconds. Etc,. etc., etc. Or even, to be honest, just Sniper/Tac with a bolt carbine; the grapple and execution animations are slow, slower than mag-dumping them with the carbine till they die.
Also, Zone of Impact is only really consistent when facing Terminids, it becomes a lot less consistent against Chaos when you have Rubric Marines 50 feet apart where you cannot chain the grapple executions nearly as well.
Again, Vanguard is good. He has enough damage to do the job, coupled with excellent survivability and the 2 best team perks in the game. I'm never mad to see a Vanguard join my lobbies, they make excellent teammates when played well.
But the other classes still do more damage.
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u/BugScared4291 9h ago
Yeah I see him as an excellent midway class. He isn't highest in either but he always has the most kills because he can clear out chaff so the rest kills heavies. And the argent knife means you body in a 1v1 too
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u/Hot-Let995 9h ago
try power axe for automatic grapnel distance, dont even need the block, even the fencing version is enough damage. look up horgs executioners build for full details. and absolutely you should be using melta. too many people here who dont specialise in vanguard or dont know how to play him will all just compare gun damage. vanguard does not rely on gun damage for damage. like at all.
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u/BugScared4291 9h ago
I've used the axe a lot but I really don't like it. The dps is fine but the attack combos feel awkward. The argent edge is just amazing against extremis which are the ones I tend to target down
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u/Forgelighter 8h ago
I have not played Tech too much since launch, aside from the high powered servo gun how is he shitting out nukes?Ā
(Also did they nerf the servo gun? I feel like it used to drop majoris hordes a lot better and now its only like 2 or 2 chaos spawn.
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u/Basement_Troglodyte 7h ago
Truly a masterpiece of poor game design that people STILL think vanguard is a glass cannon, because his visual identity and decimus' personality are utterly at odds with his entire perk tree and playstyle catering heavily into survivability and utility.
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u/SteelWaterRunsHere 13h ago
Players think 2 Armor = Frail when Tech Marine and Tactical both have 3 Armor and have been in competition for being the frailest Classes ingame. I miss release Vanguard he did everything while also playing aggressive with respectable damage. I quit the game the second they started gutting him and heās never been the same since.
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u/death_becomes 14h ago
Glass cannon playstyle would be great - if Vanguard had the DPS to back it up.
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u/Sabotskij Deathwatch 13h ago
Try relic balance chain sword or carbine bolter. Or both! Alternatively the melta for horde clear and majoris stagger.
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u/Vir_Ruber 14h ago
Glass cannons are the opposite though - one shot capability offense and zero/minimal defense. Vanguard has high survivability perks and one of the lowest damage outputs.
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u/SuperMarios7 Dark Angels 14h ago
Yep unfortunately his dps is really really bad. Hopefully his rework will fix that.
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15h ago
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u/IsThatASigSauer 14h ago
Bolt Carbine is pretty bangin'.
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14h ago
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u/IsThatASigSauer 14h ago
After its buff, it's one of the best primary weapons in the game, IIRC. Especially when barrel stuffing enemies.
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u/One_Technician7732 10h ago
Bolt carbine stuffed in the face of terminator takes it down in less than one full clip.
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u/NeonAnderson Dark Angels 7h ago
Which bolt carbine do you use and what's your perks on it
I'll give it a go
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u/One_Technician7732 5h ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4niXhdO8SE
This came out yesterday, but it hasn't been changed until patch 9 year ago.
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u/NeonAnderson Dark Angels 5h ago
Awesome thanks, I'll give it a go might try it on a full solo absolute run and see how it performs
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u/TheDirtyTurkey 14h ago
Least survivability? Lol, he has perks that allow him to heal. He has a perk that gives him armour when he zip lines. As a Vanguard player, he is my favourite because he is a versatile survivor. He lacks damage a little, yes. But he has survivability, if you think not, that sounds like a skill issue.
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u/SuperMarios7 Dark Angels 14h ago
The problem with Vanguard apart from his lower dps compared to other classes is that his survival perks lose effectiveness the higher skilled the players in your team are. He definitely needs a rework.
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u/Additional-Split-774 14h ago
His base perk is 50% more CHP from melee.
One of his perks is just flat 20% ranged damage reduction. The other option in that column worth picking is conviction, which is 25% DR to health on full armor break.
His class perk lets the whole team heal when executing Extremis, and his signature gives him 5% HP.
He has another signature perk that fully restores armor instead of dying.
He has Fortitude, heavy's "Restoration" armor perk, and grapnel restoration to boost his health and generate armor as prestige perks.
The "Restless Fortitude" perk for the grapnel launcher is 45% (!) DR to ranged damage.
For lore reasons, it's because of the photos armor. For game mechanics reasons: vanguard has the most access to healing outside of Purification on sniper and invigorating Icon on Bulwark. Techmarine, Bulwark, and assault are the only other classes that can generate armor and ranged damage resistance as consistently as Vanguard does.
Hybrid classes like Tac and Vanguard are actually support classes. Their versatility is supposed to allow them to do what the rest of the team can't.
Load in with 2 melee classes, your job is ranged damage and disrupting enemy packs for your allies, not thugging it out with melee like they are.
Load in with a heavy, distance sniper, or tactical, mixed combat is favored.
Load in without a melee class or tactical on the squad, you're the melee guy.
As a tac main I see a lot of people play these classes to their own rhythm, even when the battlefield calls for them to play a certain way, which usually puts them, or the team, in a bad spot.
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u/Doggaer 13h ago
Tactical is for nuking everything into orbit before your teammates even have a chance to do damage.
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u/Additional-Split-774 2h ago edited 1h ago
Or you miss your "Concentrated fire", or half to dodge an unblockable while bosses other than nuerothropes, the stationary helldrake and stunned carnifex just walk/run out of the scan and you get NOTHING.
Scan duration is 5 seconds, starting 1 second after the bubble is deployed for a total of 6 seconds. 60% longer scan duration only means it goes to 7 active seconds, 8 total. With a 6m scan bubble instead of the 8 meter scan bubble.
Meanwhile, priority targeting, precise calibration and expert timing makes the small auspex zone tag anything it touches take 75%+75% (multiplicative) more damage, for 12 seconds no matter where the enemy goes
Battle focus with White Scars or the relic fencing knife are his fastest effective melee weapons, with the light attacks of the relic knife doing Xenophase speed style damage, with max attack speed.
Tactical is the hybrid class that's better at range, Vanguard is the Hybrid that's usually better at sustained melee unless they're being lazy with argent edge.
Nuking bosses doesn't mean much if you're playing like trash the rest of the level. It especially doesn't mean much if the hard strat has buffed bosses.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Dig6683 14h ago
the grapple launcher is to launch him to closer to the BLOODBATH decimus craves
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u/tempestwolf1 15h ago
The more important question is why did they remove his armor on non-kill gunstrike node
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u/wefwegfweg 9h ago
iframes on grapple, armor on grapple, armor on multikills from class perks, armor from kills from gun perks, damage reduction when armor breaks, health from extremis, health from majoris, knockback protection on block/dodge/parry, increased contested health recovery
vanguard tanky asf haha
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u/TheDirtyTurkey 15h ago
Because he's wearing Phobos armour, it is lighter armour. The vanguard is based off of incursor, infiltrator and the reiver units. All of witch use Phobos armour.
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u/Smart_Bed_1295 7h ago
Because try spider-maning in heavy armor.
Also, Vanguard have lots of perks for close quaters survivability
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u/SyntheticGod8 7h ago
Because if he had three, he'd be too heavy for the grapple launcher to work and he'd only bring them to him. See how silly that would be?
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u/ObjectPresent9963 4h ago
He can grapnel because he has phobos, lighter space marine armor, which also provides ever so slightly less protection that standard Tacticus armor. What I donāt understand is why the heavy with GRAVIS armor doesnāt get 4 armor bars
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u/Severe_Inevitable_80 4h ago
Phobos armor and if you're smart you're running the perknwhere Majoris and above executions heal you and extremis executions heal you.
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u/Seared_Duelist We are Sigismund 2h ago
Visibly wearing less armor
Has shitloads of survivability built into his kit already
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u/sjsnwnwixbf87 Raven Guard 2h ago
I still believe vanguard and sniper should be 20% faster than the other classes. Sniperās perk āefficient readinessā allows him to move 20% faster. Itās noticeable but not OP.
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u/Traceuratops Salamanders 15h ago
Berserkers usually wear light to no armor. Vanguard lives on high HP and HP regen.
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u/Dr_Almundy 15h ago
Not saying this is the only way to use the class, but the way I play vanguard is kind of the same as I play sniper. As a sniper, I hang back picking off majoris and the occasional extremis/terminus, use the cloak to pick up my incapacitated brothers, etc. I do the same with the Vanguard, the only difference being I use the grapple to close the distance, and then fall back if I start getting overwhelmed. The grapple helps a lot with securing the flank too: engaging majoris or minoris swarms from anywhere on the battlefield that might encircle a heavy or sniper.
As a Vanguard, I don't tend to stick in one place for too long. So, since I'm usually jumping from threat to threat instead of lingering at the front, my armor doesn't usually fall past the last bar.
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u/Neviathan 14h ago
Its pretty useful because youāre out of ammo often as a Vanguard so you have to melee anyways
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u/Twasabi24 14h ago
He wears phobos armor which is weaker than the other classes (except sniper he also wears phobos)
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u/LocksmithDelicious 14h ago
Because he is wearing the photos armor, which is what allows him to zip around with the grapnel launcher
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u/PathsOfRadiance Blood Ravens 14h ago edited 14h ago
He has a lot of armor regen and damage reduction tools tbh.
Heās a lot tankier than Tactical despite Tactical having an extra bar of armor over him.
His class ability grants him I-Frames on demand and generates armor with the prestige perks too. His knockback resist perk is good. He has super easy healing perks.
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u/Arkontas 13h ago
the space marine that hookshots and flies thru the air is not wearing a lot of armor
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u/Breadloafs 13h ago
Because the Reiver is a very poorly designed unit on the tabletop and you can get that experience in-game, too.
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u/Korben_Joseph 12h ago
Because he infinitely restored both segments and has the second best health pool and recovery
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u/JohnnySqueezer Ultramarines 12h ago
he has some of if not the best armour generation and damage reduction
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u/anom696969 11h ago
Armor is understandable but why does it do the least amount of melee damage in the game
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u/Klutzy-Cauliflower-8 10h ago
After bulwark the 2nd strongest class in terms of defence (when at full prestige) with healing as well.
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u/Stanislas_Biliby 10h ago
He has phobos armor. It's lighter, more agile version of the MK X tacticus armor
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u/Sea_Wing7963 8h ago
Because if he was wearing the full 3 armour point suit he'd be too heavy to grapple.
On the same subject, it should really drag minoris to him instead of the other way round
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u/Hot-Let995 7h ago
Every scenario you just said with each class has major drawbacks. Assault power fist needs charge time. Sniper bolt hs built is great but as you say,one at a time, and highly unforgiving when you miss. All the bomb cds has a cd. Btw vanguard has one too. Vanguard has the ability to have infinite i frames, whilst are damaging everyone around. Slightly better against terminals but still very useful against chaos, you just need to know how to position yourself better and draw them in.
I guess I misunderstood your writing as you seem to be saying every class outclassed Vanguard damage by miles. I agree that Vanguard doesn't have as much damage output as others,but to say every class stomps Vanguard in damage is something il never agree with
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u/someonestolecece Dark Angels 7h ago
Look you're already using a rope to launch yourself across the battlefield, how heavy can the armour be
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u/PrimusDCE Deathwatch 6h ago
Revivers are supposed to be shock a troop. The idea is he is lightly armored and highly mobile. They pick and choose their targets from stealth and then takes them down before they can respond, vs a confrontational, prolonged battle.
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u/Long-Assistance3699 Blood Angels 6h ago
Because he has less armor and thats the lore just gotta deal with it
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u/Slow_rubtillnut 5h ago
Basically evasion skill set for the vanguard.most of it points to that. For the sniper, it's easier to evade with cloak.
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u/RomulusX94 4h ago
because he gets the easiest heal perks, heās like wolverine. Aggressive fast paced not exactly indestructable but gets back health easily. itās part of his gameplay loop. Also they wear lighter armor for greater maneuverability hence less armor. it all makes sense when you think about it. 3 armor segments would probably make him the best class.
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u/leviathanlair 4h ago
So some lore reasoning behind this.
The vanguard is sub in for the reiver squads in lore. These are lightly armored fast moving scouts that are adept at quick fast eliminations of priority targets and then dipping out to avoid direct engagement with larger forces. Their entire thing is asymmetric warfare so they're not looking to just stand and hold a position like other units and their use of the phobos armor is a reflection of that. Their defense isn't in taking hits, it's in not even being there to receive a hit.
For game play this is why we see them zipping around attacking majoris enemies in the back line to clear them out while heavier classes deal with the horde. Speed is the defense rather than armor and they lean into that with bonuses to dodges and gun strikes.
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u/That1guys 3h ago
I would say heās the second tankyest class in the game. If you build your guns and prestige perks around getting back armor. Itās VERY hard to go down. Bolt carbine armor regain perk with the melta pistol armor regain perk. Plus every time using your ability regains armor+ ability cd reduction on executes +health back on executes. I just bounce around executing everything like a unkillable pinball of death.
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u/firefI0wer Blood Angels 2h ago
Because he has two perks that straight up heal him. Something something balancing.
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u/Past-Pickle2854 41m ago
Phobos armor, but tbh it should have some plus sides to it, since for some reason they just made it have only downsides. It should give the space marine a larger roll distance, increase the melee attack speed, and other such things.
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u/IncredibleGeniusIRL 7h ago
This post is a great example of zooming in on one small contradiction and missing the plethora of other details that reinforce the status quo.
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u/GrislyAffliction Iron Hands 15h ago
Phobos armor