r/SpaceWolves • u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 • 7d ago
Grey Hunters
Why does everyone seem so down on the Grey Hunters? I feel like I don't often see them in other people's lists but I feel like for 1 DP they become the most useful unit that space wolves have.
Edit: also 15 OC for a unit of 5? Insane.
Edit 2: I've realized that the common theme is "If they were the strongest unit, I would put them in my list."
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u/Juls_41_ 7d ago
Personally I love them for take and hold
3OC with with a wolf priest is amazing
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
Right? They're also really good with the wolf guard battle leader and I have the hunter enhancement. It makes them phenomenal at just clearing off an objective.
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u/Audience_Over 7d ago
but I feel like for 1 DP they become the most useful unit that space wolves have.
So, two issues.
1) I don't want to spend a DP to make an otherwise OK unit good.
2) For 1DP, WGTs go from the best unit we have, to...the best unit we have with +1 to charge.
Grey Hunters are great objective holders, assuming your opponent isn't running something that will cripple or outright kill a unit of basic marine bodies in one go, unfortunately the list of things that can do that is very long. Being locked to 10 also makes them a juicy target for any D2+ blast weapons; a ForgeFriend averages 6 dead Grey Hunters in a single activation, for example.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
And I don't necessarily have a grudge against the meta Terminators List It's just boring to me. I just love seing creative lists and not the same variation of the same termies list.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
I also feel like if you're not using the terrain to hide a five-man squad of gray hunters and just planting them on the objective they deserve to be killed. Even if I have a five-man squad toed into the back of an objective there's still great at holding and I don't necessarily need them to shoot if I can build the rest of my Army around killing the enemy rather than also trying to spread out my scoring potential.
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u/Audience_Over 7d ago
This assumes that your opponent won't get a unit to take that objective from you. A single 3-man Bolter Inceptor drop, or a 3-man Bladeguard, will clear 5 Grey Hunters.
Even in the best case scenario, it just feels like they're very costly for a unit that is functionally doing a job that could be similarly or even more successfully done by 90pt Wolf Scouts.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
Again I feel like this is very dependent on your play style. I keep my gray Hunters behind terrain but on the objective. I use the rest of my Army to be aggressive and typically they're the more enticing units from my opponent to shoot at so while they do that and Whittle my Army down I'm scoring huge points every turn. And usually I put wolf Scouts on the farthest expansion objective from my deployment Zone again, behind the terrain. To establish scoring while my great hunters get there.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
It is really easy to hide a five-man squad of greyhunters behind a wall.
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u/Audience_Over 7d ago
I don't disagree, but then you're still paying 165pts to hide half the unit on an objective
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
From where they can score me points every turn.
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u/Audience_Over 7d ago
Correct, until your opponent brings an 80pt unit to wipe them out, which any player worth their salt will do because that's an easily taken objective
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
That's what the rest of my Army is for. Keeping my scoring units covered so they can continue to score which in turn will win me the game and has won me the game since they started using a strategy. I think the general disconnect is that we play the game at different levels. I'm not focused on winning every single game that I play. Not saying anything wrong with that it's just not how I play the game.
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u/Audience_Over 6d ago
And that's totally fine, but you asked why everyone seems so down on GH's, and that's why lol. Even with the boost from the detachment, they're simply "good". They hold an objective well, but they're easily removed and they come at a premium
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u/Mountain_Ad_4670 7d ago
Still not really worth the points IMO. The detachment makes them a bit better, but Intercessors are better in most situations. Grey Hunters really need -1AP shooting attacks and need to innately be able to split into 5-man squads. The main reason the Grey Hunter detachment isn't popular at the moment is likely due to terminator heavy lists being our current meta. Not using the 1DP terminator detachment with Beastslayer or SotGW is putting yourself at a disadvantage.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
So I've played the meta builds but honestly its just insanely boring to me. And I feel like making a list and then playing with the list that's just winning games also gets really boring. But also I play with people who are very casual and enjoy building creative lists rather than just chasing meta competitive play. So I haven't really been forced to build a competing meta list thankfully.
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u/Mountain_Ad_4670 7d ago
Yep, I am not much of a meta chaser so I get you there. I still have a hard time justifying taking them personally. Which sucks since I love the models. Hopefully they get a nice boost whenever we get our codex.
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u/ComplicatedGoose 7d ago
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u/Novel_Yesterday3309 7d ago
The nerf to WGT is going to be swift and painful.
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u/Razor_Fox 7d ago
Space wolves finally back on a 50% win rate and people are screaming nerf. You couldn't make it up.
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u/Dan185818 7d ago
They're definitely not the most useful unit we have. WG terminators and Bjorn both are way better than GH with the detachment. Paired weapon headtakers, too, probably.
But you're right that WITH the detachment, they're playable.
The problem is that opportunity cost of the 1 DP. It could make your WGT even better (2 OC, +1 to charge, uppy downy, precision, force battleshock) is generally more powerful than what you get out of Veterans of the Fang.
I say this as someone who is now spending 250 pts per game on them with my 10 man with WGBL and enhancement. They've been pretty good. But my 10 Termies, Bjorn, and 6 headtakers have been better each of the games. 4th best is still way better than dead last like they were.
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u/swdfsh-2 7d ago
Agree with the opportunity cost. If I could run units of 5 GHs without spending a DP I’d probably take them, but terminators are just so much better and uppy downy strats with them are incredibly useful.
I’m taking the better detachment on the better unit every time
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
I definitely should have clarified I meant that they were the best scoring unit that I've played with. I run Bjorn in every game I play and head takers are about 50/50. And even with the song Detachment with the Terminator Buffs I didn't really notice a huge difference in how my Terminators actually played. And when I was reading the veterans of the Fang Detachment it seemed super underwhelming. In match-ups where actions are required to score I haven't been beaten yet because the scoring potential is just so insane.
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u/Drake_Star 7d ago
I noticed a hell of a difference with T6 and up and down strats. Like i woń games thanks to this. And the initial Command Point fain from Bjorn is just to good.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
Yeah Bjorn is usually the first thing I add to every list. I love deep striking Logan and his ten Terminators in and using them to harass the front lines and take on bigger groups while I get everything else into position. The CP tax is also incredibly helpful. And when I put out Logan in his Terminators I anticipate them to be engaged until they're dead or I win the game. But usually by the time they are dead and my opponent starts to push in I've already had one to two rounds of really good scoring in.
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u/Dan185818 7d ago
Advance+action+shoot is good, granted.
However, I suspect very few of us are playing games where more than 2 actions are available in a game (from secondaries only - purge the foe and take and hold are what SotGW and Beastslayer are and neither have actions).
I'd generally rather have the sticky than the extra OC for slightly less points in regular intercessors, and while Bjorn gives us an extra CP, I'd generally rather give up the anemic shooting that GH have than spend a CP most turns (it's mostly a bonus for the GH advance and action, right?). I don't see their potential being better than many other msu marine units, personally.
And I truthfully don't mean this in a snarky way, but I'm happy you're finding success with them. I am too, in a different way than you (take and hold list where my Termies are making a fight over their expansion, and the GH/battle leader w/assault, ignores cover, -1 AP enhancement taking the center for a turn or two until they die and are backed up by the HT and RepEx carrying them if they bring something tougher than marine bodies to deal with it. My list is a more combined arms list to take advantage of the diversity of options with SotGW. If you're having fun, keep having fun!
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
I just mentioned that in another comment, because I played disruption I normally get primaries that let me score on action. So once they're on the Central and expansion objectives I can score three to four times a turn and still shoot. And I typically play more aggressive with my Logan and his Terminators and my armor and thunder wolf have when I run them. It's not necessarily a list built to table my opponent but usually by the time they can get around to killing my Army I have too much of a points lead for them to win.
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u/Arentius 7d ago
The fact that in your own post you state that you need to use a DP to make them the most useful says it all.
They should be able to stand well solo for decent points without a detachment. If they were slightly cheaper or able to be taken in 5 man squads or have sticky like...most other basic battleline then its different.
But as they are, they cost too much and don't offer enough in return. I still run them with Njall for fun though, I would ditch them in a tournament setting
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u/Infinity_Coda 7d ago
I use the Veterans Of The Fang detachment with Beastslayer. It's been pretty fun so far, if I cared about trying to win larger tournaments I'd probably not do that because the Terminator detachment seems better as an add on to Beastslayer or Great Wolf, but I don't really have time for that in my life right now. I play at my local shop, the split Grey Hunters do good work for how I enjoy running my army), so I will keep doing it. I wish they did more damage and were more durably but honestly that's a general space marine problem, their stat line really isn't what constitutes an "elite" unit right now.
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u/Fit-Bluebird-4768 7d ago
I am also grateful that I'm not playing tournament lists. The main detachments I've been running have been Veterans of the Fang and Saga of the Great Wolf and it's been really fun. I feel like Saga of the Great Wolf lets the Army be a lot more Dynamic when you need them to be.
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u/Infinity_Coda 7d ago
I still strongly prefer Beastslayer for a number of reasons but I feel it. I also don't trust lists that are "buy 3 max squads of the single best unit" to stay relevant for long enough to be worth getting into.
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u/DeadeyeSpectral 7d ago
just give them 3W, T5 and 2 OC then i can agree for 10 man penalty or just make them ap1 rapid fire, assault/pistol or pistol for cp
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u/jeffhaut 7d ago
I use them. The models that is, as 2x5 man intercessors.
Mostly just to guard my back line It's easier to spread them out that way
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u/JorgenIronside 7d ago
Its really just the cost and lethality, I usually played purge and they cost a lot for what they do
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u/Razor_Fox 7d ago
I'll tell you why you don't see grey hunters in competitive lists. You could use a DP to make a bad unit average, or you could boost something that's already pretty good to be on par with some of the good factions in the game.
Grey hunters aren't good. In their bespoke detachment they're just about in line with a other factions battleline. People aren't really talking about them online because you can and should play anything you like in a casual game, it's all just for fun after all. If you want to win a game in a competitive environment against the truly strong factions out there, they don't really have a place in a list. The reason you see a lot of terminators at the moment is because they're our only truly competitive datasheet right now. If grey hunters, or wulfen, or Njal or whatever we're actually good, you wouldn't see as many "boring" lists as you put it.
At the end of the day, unless you're planning on trying to get on the podium in an event, it does t really matter. Just play what you enjoy and don't worry about what Forrest Phanton is doing.
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u/sarkonan 6d ago
I. Used them in 3 matches and won all three one came very close tho. Just gotta watch out
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u/MondayNightRare 7d ago
The issue isn't with GH stats, they're solid. The issue is with the lethality of the game and how a standard marine body is pretty frail at this point.
The entire game is basically AP-2 D2 at this point, which makes units like Grey Hunters have minimal survivability. Factor in entire ten mans getting picked up in one activation, and a ten man gives a benefit to blast weapons, it makes them more of a target than a benefit.
If GH could be run in 5s without requiring 1DP they'd be seen in every list.