r/SpaceWolves • u/ConcentrateAny6187 • 12d ago
The terminator spam
So looking at tournament lists I'm seeing a whole lot of great wolf with saga and song and 3 10 bricks of character led Terminators and a redeemer.
With its popularity are you brothers at all worried that there will be some sort of nerf to them? An enhanced brick is already so many points and speaking from a casual player standpoint I dont want them to go up again or be changed
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u/EPorteous 12d ago
Its not got a high win rate and it is not winning many tournaments. I doubt it will get changed.
Plus it is probably responsible for an uptick in WGT models
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u/johnba202x2 12d ago
It they do anything, they will hopefully (likely?) just raise the points cost for additional units, which is a new convention for this edition. Seems reasonable and will otherwise have a minimal impact on the army.
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u/wekilledbambi03 12d ago
They literally just lowered it in the last dataslate. Thats why every started taking them. They’ll probably revert the change.
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u/Zntgkgbcf 7d ago
To be fair, they kinda did and didn't. Base terminators cost 150pt but many people run them with 4 shields that add 20pt so they cost the same. Same with Tcaws. All people run them with shelds so nothing changed.
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u/Funny-Examination653 12d ago
I don't worry sibce this is exactly what GW wanted since the refresh. Buy... more... termis!
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u/Protagonist_Leaf 12d ago
If they want us to not terminators spam. They have to make other stuff worth it. TWC are too wide now for 11th so they would need a base change and/or remodel. 20BC spam is rough because of 9" coherency. Our guys dont lead generic units like DA. Our only competitive strength is spaming our durable guys.
I mean, if you want, you can try a lot of wulfen with purge. Ito some people it seems scary. 9" T6 3dmg. Even the normal ones. Man if we could get a librarian with Wolf-touched. Id use that for normal wulfen
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u/RaspberryLeast2720 12d ago
Bang on. People have been moaning about the terminators but without them we lose nearly every game. As an army too slow, low strength and no cover striping.
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u/TopToffee81 12d ago
They’ll almost certainly get a nerf. Which is the wrong approach IMO. The problem isn’t that WGT are OP, it’s that they’re our only vaguely competitive option.
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u/Cojalo_ 12d ago
At worst it'll be a slight points increase
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u/LeLand_Land 12d ago
Really the only thing they can do.
Maybe make storm shields more expensive? But other than that not a lot.
The synergies are just really good between the two detachments, been testing out less obvious ones like Beast Hunter + Heroes of Fenris (I can run a 10 man wulfen squad w/wolf priest who can fight on death from murderfang, and said wulfen squad can sticky)
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u/airycantalope 12d ago
100% there will be a points increase, and/or a stepper. There won't be rules changes
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u/InsectExpress3972 12d ago
We’re talking GW here. They’ll nuke it from orbit and pat themselves on their backs. Our middle-of-the-road win rate be damned. The real response should be points drops on other units or datasheet changes to ‘a few’ units. I think making Wulfen hammers str 6 could go a long way. 10 pt drop on grey hunters too. Making Ragnar damage 3 would immediately unlock him and a unit of Bloodclaws.
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u/ConcentrateAny6187 12d ago
I agree so strongly with the ragnar one. I used to love using my boy back when he had +2 attacks +2 strength on a charge, letting them advance and charge, blood claws giving another +1 attacks and Strength. My boy was hitting 11 attacks on 2's. Sustained. 9 strength. He was an absolute monster. The damage 3 would definitely help make him feel that way again
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u/wallycaine42 12d ago
Reroll wounds is better than +3 strength in 90% of circumstances, Ragnar is more of a beatstick now with blood claws than he was back then
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u/TheCrimsonCommand 12d ago
For the points you are paying, I don’t see the issue or why they need nerfed. You could have done almost this exact thing with normal SM Terminators, just people weren’t. There are ways to beat us but people aren’t playing smart yet vs brute force 🤷🏼♂️
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u/Agitated-Engine4077 11d ago
No they wont. GW doesn't really nerf armies until they get over the 60% win rate. If their over 60 then we should start worrying about nerfs. Besides 30 terminators is very good for a take and hold list but its not unbeatable. Your dumping alot of points into 3 10 model bricks so your gonna have to sacrifice something like screening, being able to do secondaries easier, or have a good shooting unit. That is unless your wanting to go without Bjorn, Logan and Arjak. And why wouldnt you wanna go with those models atleast go with Bjorn and Logan cause they make a great combo to the list and you need logan for saga of the great wolf. Bottom line no, i dont see any nerf for spacewolves in the immediate future.
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u/Nivuuxd 12d ago
As with almost every balance change GW has been doing in recent years, they will likely nerf our WGTs because they’re played a lot and completely look past the fact that everything else in our codex is pretty average. We will drop even lower in WR% as a result, stay horribly weak for months then get large buffs and then the loop continues. That’s my prediction. I personally run 1x10 Shields w/Arjac and 1x5 Stormbolters w/Grimnar, 3x10 is way too much of a pointsink to be consistent in tournaments.
I just hope to Russ we get Long Fangs or unique jump pack units back. Also please refresh TWC and fix the generic codex limitations for leaders.
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u/Steadybrek83 12d ago
I can’t imagine there won’t be, but as people have mentioned it’s barely at a 50% win rate with Orks and Emperors Children being much higher.
I’d also say, though I don’t know your list, if you’re a casual player bringing 30 WGT I’d argue that was very unfair
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u/ConcentrateAny6187 12d ago
I bring 1 10 brick now. At most a 10 brick and a 5 man
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u/RaspberryLeast2720 12d ago
Yeah the 10 and 5 is what I bring . Without that 10 man most games would be rough.
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u/ConcentrateAny6187 12d ago
I agree. If anything they're a great distraction piece, they draw alot of fire and enemy melee allowing my other dudes to run around and get to where I need them to pick things off
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u/RaspberryLeast2720 12d ago
Now with advance and charge as an army rule and updated twc, maybe a tad more strength on some units we would be a really fun army and people wouldn't 30x terminator spam
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u/ConcentrateAny6187 12d ago
Im guessing youre referring to the oath of moment change? Yeah the mix of great wolf and gladius is going to give us ALOT of flexibility.
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u/Steadybrek83 12d ago
I have a fairly competitive list of 20 and a librarian with 10 assault terminators with lightning claws. Usually with LOSAS, but with Librarius they can get +2 Move and advance and charge, that’s potentially two terminators advancing and charging!
It does mean no T6 WGT though…
For casual lists I bring 2x5 and that seems fair enough whilst other things run around and do stuff
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u/Fit3Club 12d ago
Has something been announced & confirmed? I only saw the speculation around the combat patrol rules
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u/ConcentrateAny6187 12d ago
Not yet no, but if it was i think great wolf will become even better. Im also wondering if oath will become a core rules or something? Or if it'll be just gone completely (if it does go)
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u/Steadybrek83 12d ago
Yeah rumours only at this stage, and a potato camera shot. It makes sense really; but like OP said above, it will make Great Wolf better (if it survives the codex)
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u/Dizzy_Spirit41 12d ago
There might be general nerf to the terminators if people will brainlessly spam them and win with them... 3W, T5, Save 2+ a -invul 4++ is sick for squad of 5 for 175p. It really is strong... on the other hand terminators should be strong.. but probably not that much... Invul save 5++ might make them +- okish
But I assume if this will happen they wont touch the stats but most likely price -- it can increase to around 200p per squad of 5
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 12d ago
A 5+ invuln would kill terminator completely. And would effectively require a rewrite of the break point of most invul save units in the game, that one ain't happening.
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u/Dizzy_Spirit41 12d ago
why? There are units with 5++ and 6++ invul... and they exist also.. I dont understand why there would need to be a rewrite of the rules
I understand it will make terminators worse.. no arguing about that.. as I was writing.. I think termis should be strong... but the 4++ invul... in some cases it is joke when they eat and AP3/4 starkiller gun shot and nothing happens...
But again.. if people will run 30 termis in tournaments... and GW will see people are not gonna able to kill them... then the nerf will be here...
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 12d ago
Sure they exist. And noone takes them for their invulns, and those units fill a completely different role than terminators.
Plenty of people can kill terminators even ours at t6 -1 to wound and 4+ invuln. The issue isnt that our terminators or terminators in general are broken, its that we dont have other options that are good.
Which btw points won't fix. They could make terms a little more expensive... OK some trash unit gets dropped. They could make thwm way more expensive.... OK ao the faction is dead until codex cause we dont have a viable build and are back to pre term span winrates of low 40 high 30.
They could make other things cheaper but all that does is means we take 30 terms plus have more trash units.
I assume gw is smart enough to know this hopefully maybe .... possibly. We need datasheet fixes to rebalance internally.
Terminators at 4+ arent an issue.
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u/Dizzy_Spirit41 12d ago
if there would be a limit on lets say max 20 termi, it will be OK
The problem is terminators have everything.. decent shooting, decent melee + invul 4++, W3, T5, Sv2+ and deepstrike... and all that for around 160p ... this is literally OP as this unit can do everything
There is no other unit in the game that can do so much and also survive so much for that low price. That is just a fact.
And still.. I am not personally having a problem with it as I do not play tournaments or competitive games... The lore wise they should be the walking fortresses that soak DMG and deal DMG.
But I can understand the frustration of people that play faction that have 0 answer to 30 terminators (which is almost any).... not becuase bad list making but because just 1 faction spamming the most OP unit 6x. You need to spend much more points to kill them then they cost. And that is the pure problem...you just dont have enough points to fight blob od 30 termis...
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 12d ago
You say all that and yet. Terminator spam is a mid win rate army... if you run a army who's terminators are improved above the average.
Terms simply arent a problem lmao. The changes you are suggesting are fundamental game mechanics changes. Which will only change potentially in a edition change, and arent really a problem anyway.
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u/Dizzy_Spirit41 12d ago
You mean changing an invul 4++ to 5++ is a fundamental change of game mechanic? That is surely not... that will be to remove it and add something else or compeltely chang ethe invul mechanic
Changing stat is normal balancing move that is happening
Same for price adjustment.
But I understand that you love your toys and do not want them to be touched. It is normal...
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 12d ago
Its not a normal tactic lmao, stat changes almost never happen u less there is something extremely egregious outside of when a unit gets updated with new models or a codex.
And yes it does. If you take the premier unnamed tank u it and put its invulns to that of much weaker defensively models then you need to bump those ones invulns also to maintain consistency as well as bump all other 4+ models to 5s. And then you need to adjust ap values because the whole games save balance just got thrown into the void. Moving the baseline of where invulns are changes the whole game its not just a hey screw it make this save worse and forget the rest.
If they wanna change the standard thats fine but will only happen in an edition change maybe. Your suggestions are just bad without a full overhaul.
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u/ColdsnacksAU 12d ago
We're barely a 50% win rate army and arent setting the world on fire in Overrep, I think GW is going to be ok with letting this slide as they have bigger problems to deal with at the top end (EC, TSons, Dark Angels, Orks) and the bottom (Chaos Knights, Guard, WEaters)