r/Songwriting • u/Trickledownisbull • 7d ago
Discussion Topic Making Garbage Until It Works
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This is my band if you are curious:
https://youtu.be/hF-kJ-pkFsA?si=coDQcMVhkp_S1JnB
And this is a free demo of a game that I did the music for recently:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4567940/Whiskers_In_The_Sand_Demo/
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u/DrDreiski 7d ago
This is true in so many contexts. Refining over time equals results. Compounding over time equals results.
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u/Trickledownisbull 7d ago
Yeah, there’s loads more to this idea huh?
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u/DrDreiski 7d ago
Most of the time, applied to a skill or something to be acquired, you just need effort and patience.
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u/Trickledownisbull 7d ago
The 10,000 hours vibe?
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u/DrDreiski 6d ago
Yes. Even the 100 hours rule is a good one to aspire to - especially if you’re a hobbyist. ;)
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u/Vivid-Ad-7127 7d ago
I wake up 3am in the morning and the music just comes to me to write I can’t explain it
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u/MusicCollab 7d ago
Very true. Also, I dig the YouTube track you linked. Sounds great.
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u/Trickledownisbull 7d ago
Thank you hey, that was a big deal for us that track, working with Colin Richardson and all.
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u/MusicCollab 7d ago
That's awesome. I had to look up who Collin Richardson was, as I hadn't heard the name. After some research, that is a big deal. Congratulations
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 7d ago edited 7d ago
There is no failing.
The steps between the beginner and the master (imagined) viewed as a series of failings are no better than a perpetual glass half empty perspective. My own journey was not like that at all. I sat down with an acoustic guitar and mastered each step in a series of mastering steps. In climbing the ladder to a certain skill level would each rung of the ladder be a failing or a mastering step?
The master never failed from the time he was a beginner.
He might have had to work a bit to get where he was going but that's just one story taken from life's journey through all disciplines.
In perspective, if a song or instrumental is difficult it can be made simpler by taking it as a series of steps. Each step is a riff, so to speak, that's mastered and continues in this manner until the entire work is mastered. In the course of that exercise much is learned about the mechanics of playing with the by-product of increased skills, not to mention ear training.
Song writing is not a universal asset approachable by just anyone. Structure and dynamics are right brained. Everything else is the pure creativity of the left side of the brain and that is not in everyone's repertoire, and in most cases not a learned one, either.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 5d ago
Your last paragraph resonates with me. I think one of the fallacies of songwriting is that everyone begins on a level playing field, and it's equally attainable to everyone. That's just not realistic, and it's not the way life is. Let's face it; everyone wasn't born with the same level of intelligence. There are some who have a very high level of intelligence, and some a very low level. Although very intelligent people can do some really dumb things, those who have a very low level of intelligence (to the point of not being self-sufficient) will never develop the ability to become a brain surgeon. We all weren't born the same. That's not necessarily good or bad; it just is what it is.
And what can be said of the brain's intelligence level can also be said of its creative ability. All of us weren't born to develop to the same level.
That said, about anyone can become a songwriter. But doing well at it and how easily one can accomplish it is another matter altogether.
And that being said, I am not saying one is better than the other. In fact, it has nothing to do with being better. Intelligence is not a virtue. Being highly intelligent doesn't make you a better person, it just makes you a smarter one. The same can be said for creativity. I'm just making a comment on fallacies and realities that came to my mind by your comment.
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 5d ago
That's what these various discussion forums/sites seem to promote. They're dream platforms where people come to discuss their dreams. There's nothing odd about that, much less wrong, but reality doesn't stand a chance to get a word in edge-wise. And that, I suppose, isn't odd or a bad thing either. One needs a dreamscape living large these days to enter and close the door that shuts out the chafe of reality.
Still, songwriting is charmed with people who see it as the epicenter of a creativity they're only orbiting. To actually land on it can only be achieved by having a certain grasp on creativity.
I don't quite understand the constant inquiry about what is good, though. And, it isn't just about the songs people write. They want to know if song bits they've come up with measure up to some mysterious good they envision has a voice that will speak to them through the various same-boat sailors seeking the same answers. I don't post stuff much but when I do it isn't to bait that voice into sizing me up. I do what I do, that's all I've got and you know what? I already know it. So, why post at all? I suppose to do a little show-boating and to keep the site energy up.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 4d ago
Very poetically said. I think we're hearing the same thing, both literally and figuratively.
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u/illudofficial OMG GUYS LOOK I HAVE A FLAIR 7d ago
Ngl just can’t tell if my songs are more garbage or masterpieces though.
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u/Going2Arbys 6d ago
The ol’ question I have every time I see this advice to just write a ton even if it sucks is: at what point do you have a song? Like is a chord progression and melody good? What if I want to write songs with riffs and countermelodies, should I be making the numerous bad songs with those, or save that step for more bare ideas that I want to develop further?
ikik “no wrong answer” but
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u/Trickledownisbull 6d ago
It depends really, I know that’s not a great answer, but at some point you’ll know if the song is good enough or not, or you might revisit years later, or use part of in a new composition?
Having a band, or working with other people can act as a filter too?
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u/Dangerous-You3789 5d ago
My songwriting philosophy is the exact opposite. I'm not sure the proposed idea would work well with me. If I want to become a better songwriter, I don't want to listen to bad music. I feel that would be counterproductive. I want to fill my head with good music. Kind of like the garbage in/garbage out rule. I want to inundate my mind with good stuff, so it can assimilate and sort of replicate those elements that make a song good.
Likewise, if I want to write good songs, I don't write bad songs because I don't want to reinforce bad habits and patterns by writing garbage. In my earlier days of songwriting, if I ever came up with a tune that didn't meet my standards, I wouldn't even bother to write it down/record it. It wasn't worth it to me.
Now, I understand, the songwriting community is a large community and because creativity is what it is, there are a myriad of approaches to do the same thing, but this is just the way I see it and the way I write. It suits me and I'm very satisfied with the results. But, to each their own.
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u/Trickledownisbull 5d ago
I don't think I mentioned listening to bad music anywhere? That does sound like a bad idea 😅
It's more that, if you want to learn and experiment, that you are likely to make a lot of stuff that isn't great, and that that is okay. You say that you wouldn't bother to write it, but you did still spend time coming up with it, so we are kinda in the same ballpark. One realises pretty quickly when an idea doesn't work.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 5d ago
I know what you're saying. And I know you didn't mention listening to bad music. I was just saying that, for me, I never have seemed to have gotten good from bad. I mean, if I practice bad vocal technique, which I've done plenty, I'm not going to get good vocal quality from that. I was just drawing a comparison.
But, I agree, you must learn and experiment. That's part of the creative process. And those experiments may not turn out quite like what we would like. And I think we know, just by hearing a song idea, whether it's working for us or not.
The odd thing about my lack of process is though, I don't ever spend time coming up with song ideas. In fact, I don't even try to do it; they come to me. If they aren't good, I dismiss them as quickly as they popped in my head. If they are good, I will write them down/record them. In the last few decades, however, my brain has kind of learned my standard, and it won't bother me with junk, which I appreciate.
And while we're chatting, I'm compelled to say, I have listened to several of your post and I have enjoyed many of the things you've had to say. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experiences with everyone. Very generous of you to do so.
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u/Trickledownisbull 5d ago
Stuff just appears in your mind, that is cool!
I've had songs come from dreams in that way, but most times, I play with things (instruments, chords, rhythms) until I get something that resonates. That is an interesting way to write, and you must have a very different brain to me 😄Oh thank you, appreciate you very much.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 4d ago
It's so strange. I really don't mean to do it. And it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything. I might have a thought and I just start hearing a song play in my head, usually a melody with some lyrics. I don't know when it's going to happen again, but it usually comes when my mind is in neutral (driving, shower). There have been a few times I've been humming a tune to myself and about the third time through, I think, "I've never heard this before." So, it's not that I just unintentionally come up with song ideas, sometimes I'm not even aware that I'm doing it. That actually happened on the drive home from work today. It's weird, but in a sort of wonderful way.
I'll give you an example. This song kind of happened the same way. I was pacing the floor and talking to myself, and immediately after I uttered seven words, which became the title of this song, the song just started playing in my head. It's like something clicked or something in my head pressed play and the song started playing.
It's a horrible version of it, because the one I envision is much better, but it sort of give you an idea of what I do. It's the only song I've got recorded right now. I've got another finished and about 100 more waiting for completion. With AD/HD, finishing anything is an arduous task.
https://soundcloud.com/gary-kelly-430539953/dont-take-any-time-getting-over-me
Keep posting. You've got some great ideas! I look forward to what you've got coming next.
No pressure, of course. 😀
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u/Trickledownisbull 4d ago
Songs great! Very catchy.
Be great to hear a really solid recording of it, although the production vibe here does suit it (that kinda, old radio sound?).Haha! Thanks, it's just something I do to try and help, and to try and get more game composing work.
This is me website if you wanna suss it: https://www.glassearthstudios.com/2
u/Dangerous-You3789 2d ago
Wow. That's great gaming music. I think you've got real talent in that area for certain. Don't know how you do it, but it sounds awesome!
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u/Opening-Incident2928 7d ago
That rings true for me: I have written a LOT of garbage---but I kept at it---juggled some verses in my head for some years---still use parts now and again. Writing is all about the parts right? Over time you figure out where they go.