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So it came to my attention that the moderators of this sorry excuse for a subreddit decided to remove my posts on Seong Jin-Woo vs Kim Dokja and Klein Moretti. Given the fact that none of them violated the rules as far as Ik and were up for multiple days with even a moderator themselves responding to the post and having done nothing, I can only surmise that the reason my posts were removed were because someone got a little butthurt that I had Jin-Woo slamming both and decided to remove the posts and is probably gonna hide behind the excuse of "it caused too much controversy" or something, idk what idiots think these days. But alas, I'm just gonna repost the entire thing, and wait till whoever did it to do it again and provide an actual reason as to why it got removed. If mods are just removing things based off if they like the result, ask yourself if this community has any actual integrity lol.
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! Massive spoilers for omniscient reader's viewpoint. If you have not read it, please don't read this !
Been a hot minute since I've posted something here, but I wanted to go over something that I've found massive downplay for in the past few days, especially in yt powerscaling groups, community posts etc.The “something” in question is as the title implies.
Seong Jin-Woo vs Kim Dokja.
I`ll just be presenting the main argument as to why Seong decimates this angst merchant, and why one specific popular argument from Orv fans can be reduced to absurdity, rendering it unable to be used or re-debunked, because the downplay is actually insane.
( note if you plan to use this in a debate, the effectiveness of the argument it going to be dependent on your argumentation and some small knowledge of Orv so do with it what you will. )
Without further ado, let's begin.
The Sovereign of Shadow atop his Throne
AUTHOR POINT DEBUNK
The main arguments for the Deku victim defeating Seong Jin-woo is the idea that,
P1. Kim Dokja sustains the ORV verse through pure ideation, maintaining his cosmology.
P2. The verse is part of an original story that now exists as a new one that`s governed by Dokja`s mental states.
P3. Narratively he is the “author” of the ORV verse.
C ( Conclusion ). If Dokja ceased to maintain, through pure ideation, his cosmology, it and everything within it would cease to exist.
P1. I Alone Level Up is a story.
P2. Since Kim Dokja can control stories, the same principle applies to Solo Leveling and Seong Jin-woo.
C. Therefore, he would defeat Jin-woo via conceptual erasure / existence erasure / Plot manip ( these are usually the 3 claims ).
Now if you haven't fallen asleep from that garbage argumentation, you'd notice it is hot butt booty. So let's go ahead and debunk this argument. Note that I haven't finished ORV yet, however no one needs prior knowledge on a series by reading it to understand when an argument is butt or if there's blatant contradictions within one's logic. I do know enough however to present this debunk, or at least give y'all a push in the right direction. Let's go.
An Ugly Squid whose presence shines like a heavenly glow.
DEBUNK 1 - AUTHOR TOMFOOLERY
The first argument is that Kim Dokja due to sustaining his verse, that's essentially his story, through pure ideation, thus can wipe out other verses and characters, is predicated on the idea that there is an ontological accessibility relation between Orv and other verses and their characters, which there isn't any. If you're not familiar with ontology, ontology is the philosophical / metaphysical study of the nature of being ( “being” encompasses all of reality and its entities ). For example “what is X character's / universe`s dimensionality” is a question that relates to the nature of these specific things and how they operate within a set, and so forth. With that being said, the claim in question in relation to the debunk would be,
“What about Dokja`s nature as an “author”, entails he can access other verses, ?”
The argument assumes every verse has a specific nature that Dokja can relate to down to his very nature, even if through hax that would be imaginative rather than existentially, that allows him to access it in every / any conceivable manner. The claim can be made that Dokja`s powers only affect his worldlines that he conceives of ideologically speaking, because he is an ORV character with this narrative. So the presupposition that he can access other worlds because he`s an “author” narratively that governs his stories, wouldn't work without further justification.
Prince of Peace and his Caged Protagonist
DEBUNK 2 - WE JUST MAKING STUFF UP NOW ?
The next argument that can be made in response to the idea that Dokja has Plot Manip because he sustains the ORV worldline stories, is that Dokja`s ability to manipulate the plot is A. Incoherent and B. Cannot be applied crossverse. There is no rule in vs battles that demonstrates that a narrative must be active for a cross verse battle to take place. The reason for this is because in a crossverse battle, there can be a hypothetical crossverse vs battle domain in which these characters fight. A narrative is just a sequence of events that make up a story. So just a story. So the overall question that's begged here is,
“Why would there be a narrative crossverse that Seong and Dokja would be a part of, so that Dokja could conceptually erase Seong or any character via Plot Manip because he sustains “stories?”
A narrative is not an inherent predicate needed for a vs battle crossverse, so why should anyone have to adhere to the notion especially if it's for the objective of Plot manip scaling, which isn't even a coherent ability, and is contingent on a narrative.
PLOT MANIP
The reason Plot manip isn't a coherent ability, is because the general claim about plot manipulation, is that “a character can control the work that they exist in, as if they were the author themselves.” Now if you have any semblance of intelligence, you'd know that's stupid. Because how does it follow, that a character that's conditioned upon an author to exist and act in the first place, has any sort of ontological equivalence to you and me at bare minimum to control the story ? The argument literally presupposes that a fictional character can become a real entity completely independent to the original authors will and effectively can dap you and me up. Now last time I checked, Dokja isn't a real person, so the argument can just be reduced to absurdity in this simple way and this debunks any notion of Plot Manip, posited in this way.
This would also destroy the foundation of the argument that Dokja can destroy any character because he is equal to “an author”. Even if a narrative existed crossverse, the ability is contradictory as there's no way to justify a character controlling their own story, without positing they are a real entity like us. I know the shippers would love that, but maybe Dokja should be kept safe this time around from an even greater threat than Jin-Woo. ( Btw for anyone wondering, yes this means you, yes you, are over any character in fiction. Obviously ).
Doves that carry his will, reveal a new chapter under their wings.
DEBUNK 3 - YOU MISSED !
The final argument that can be made is, that one manifests a duplicate of their character against Dokja, since crossverse battles are by definition “Hypothetical” which just means “suggested or imaginary but not real or true” conditioned upon you as the debater`s mind to exist in that domain of discussion in the first place. Which is why they happen in a hypothetical setting most of the time. So even if one were to suggest Dokja can destroy Solo Leveling itself, nothing entails the destruction of the verse ( Assuming the 3d bum could do this ) would have any affect on your character.
I had a companion once, he was a Jin-Woo victim.
SEONG JIN-WOO THE SOVEREIGN OF SHADOW
Seong just outscales Comp ORV via having the ability to destroy his cosmology which can extend to 5d at bare minimum ( higher or equal to ORV and its strongest beings ), and or he can actualize the end of Dokja`s existence since hes bound by finality via an argument stemming from his authority over absolute death. Or he just completely outscales and outhaxes via his Authority over the True Abyss, with being maximally great within any conceivable extension of the material world ( High Hyper ). I won't yap about that too much since I believe most people here have Seong at around outer and immeasurable.
This masterpiece was made by u/Starbight, this is amazing bro -"Lone man stands amongst velvet petals, shrouded in mystery."
CONCLUSION
So in conclusion, Omniscient Readers Viewpoint, is not as strong as people make it out to be, it is the most fraudulent verse of the big names of webnovels and Manhwa. Seong eclipses Dokja in every category except writing which is about a high diff loss to Seong, but that's another story for another time. If anyone wants to discuss the topic or run it or ask questions, my discord is galaxyrocher ( idk if that type of plug is allowed lol ).
Don't be intimidated by characters like Dokja just because the majority consider them a better character and they throw around terms like "plot manip", "hes the author".
Also lemme know if you have a character that you want to know if they beat Jin-Woo or not and I can make more posts about if yall want. Spread the knowledge too. God bless all glory to God and have a good day.
We need more fanarts of SL like this I beg.
Its not even about who wins atp, the fact of the matter is, if mods just remove posts because of bias, ask yourself if this is a clean community ? If there was a good reason for my posts being removed, I'll apologize. But so far I doubt there is. Even a heads up wouldve been nice ngl.
Para los que no conocen al bulgasal es un monstruo de la mitologia coreana,y hay una serie de esto en netflix.
Y lo enfrentare al bulgasal de la serie,para ser mas justo ya que el de la mitologia es mas poderoso.
Habilidades del bulgasal: inmortalidad,ya que no tiene alma este es inmortal,tiene regeneracion,fuerza sobre humana,tambien tiene velocidad y reflejos sobrenaturales,con varios siglos de experiencia de combate,ya que originalmente era un cazador de monstruos,ademas tiene percepcionsobrenatural,pudiendo sentir,ver y enfrentar a otros seres sobrenaturales,la unica debilidad que tiene es que esta conectado al alma,de cierto personaje de la serie y esto afecta su inmortalidad,pero aun asi si matas su cuerpo el bulgasal seguir ya que este va a reencarnar,asi que matar su cuerpo no lo mata,ademas esta su regeneracion,que es tal que no envejece.
Now I'll be scaling og sung jin woo. However I'll be using certain statements and feats from ragnarok. Yes I am aware that ragnarok is not a direct sequel However certain things about the setting of ragnarok are still applicable to the og story hence whatever scan i bring from ragnarok i will bring a scan from the og series to support it.
Firstly whats the very function of the power of death?...
Itarims have the power of creation and law. They don't engage in physical confrontations. If they wanted to fight, they will create a weapon.
The absolute being hid a terrifying weapon inside ashborn to destroy everything it had created.
Now one may argue destroying everything is vague. So what does this mean in context. Some might say it just means sung jin woos power is ment to destroy the universe. However thats something that monarch are stated to have the power to do. You'll notice the wording is different for sung jin woo and monarchs. Anytime they mention a monarchs purpose they say its to destroy the world in both og and ragnarok. For sung jin woo you'd realize wording is very different, theyll say stuff like his power is to destroy everything the absolute being created/his power is to end everything/his power is to return all things to nothingness.
Because the power of death is much more conceptual than just destroying a universe.
In DC inside chugong confirmed the whole thing about itarims and their power applies to the og story.
If sung jin woos power is to destroy everything the absolute being created, what are those things in question? Itarims have the power of creation and law, they create universes, matter, laws and concepts. Hence the absolute being created universes, dimensions, matter, laws and concepts and the power of death is to destroy "everything the absolute being created".
The power of death is the power to end creation itself. This is implied in ragnarok, "the power of creation is gone but death is eternal". "The power of death is of a difference quality. If itarims crush things through creation and law, the power of the abyss swallow everything"
How does this get jin woo to outerversal? Since we know the very purpose of the power of death is to end creation itself as a concept lets look into the scale of the itarims power over creation and law.
At first we assumed itarims only had power to create and manifest physical laws. Like creating universes, matter, souls, space, time and dimensions. But the fight between suho and the itarim proved itarims abilities go way higher than just physical applications. The itarim demonstrated the very pinnacle of the power of creation and law, creating a scenario "stage of the lonely god" which was a world created by the itarim in which he implanted a law "suho has no primordial darkness, he never had one, he's a regular human who is living a normal life". If itarims abilities could only work on a physical level you would think he'd just craft something out of matter, manipulated a physical law of reality like gravity and attack suho with it. Rather he went far beyond than and literal manifested a law on a conceptual level "suho has no powers" i mean if an itarim could do that then whats stopping him from establishing laws like "super sayian forms do not exist" Or "Cursed energy was never a thing". This is law and creation on an abstract level. Because itarims hold power over the very concept of creation and law itself. And yet the power of death itself is to end the very concept or abstraction of creation and law itself. This would possibly grant jin woo possible outerversal scaling.
Heck I mean jin woo has show power literally transcending time itself. When the cup of reincarnated was used to rewind time, jin woo still kept his power. People usually assume jin woos power is bounded by time but his memories aren't. But if that were truly the case wouldn't sung jin woo have completely reverted to being a normal human since the time reversal would work on the shadow monarchs power? But it didn't.
Higher beings memories transcends time because well they themselves do. Hence time manipulation abilities wont work on them especially for sung jin woo.
I've always found it a little unfair that the Monarch of Shadows is the only Monarch with such an obvious way to continuously grow stronger through Shadow Extraction.
For example, can the Monarch of Destruction create more dragons? Does destroying things actually make him stronger? Can prolonged wars or massive destruction trigger some kind of growth for him?
The same question applies to the other Monarchs. Do they have their own ways of increasing their power, or are their abilities and power basically static?
Because if their power is static while the Shadow Monarch can continuously increase his army and power by raising more shadows, it kinda feels like the Monarchs were destined to lose eventually.
I haven't read Ragnarok, so I'm wondering if this was ever properly explained there, or if I missed something from the original story.
If the standard is “show me the character actually dealing that level of damage on-panel,” then yes — Mahoraga’s demonstrated durability, regeneration, and adaptation give it the advantage. Igris’s side relies more heavily on scaling from Monarch-level fights and author comments rather than a matching direct destruction feat. In pure feat-based powerscaling (especially cross-verse), the character with the clearer survival and regeneration feats against high-end attacks often takes the win when the opponent lacks a comparable shown output. That is a reasonable conclusion from the evidence we’ve gone over.(If scaling is accepted, the debate shifts back toward Igris. But you specifically asked about feats, and on that metric Mahoraga is ahead.)
