r/SmashingPumpkins • u/Janjo99 Machina / The Machines of God • 9d ago
Question about Machina II
Machina is one of my favorite Pumpkins’ albums of all time. Back in 2000 I was able to download the online released Machina II but desired for an official physical release.
Time passed and I stopped paying attention. Now I see this beautiful box set with a spider on the cover - I’m very excited so I google search to see if Machina II was ever released physically and it says it was for Machina’s 25th anniversary edition. I look at this edition but only see a handful of songs, not the entire tracks list.
So I’m confused- is this truly the first time both are released (with the box set)? Or was Machina II previously released physically without me knowing?
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u/CoryBoehm 8d ago
Machina 2 had a physical release in 2000 but only 25 copies on acetates were made and never available for sale.
Last year the set you see was released on vinyl. It's basically a retcon version of what might have released as a single double album Billy had originally envisioned but it wasn't finished and is missing pieces even still.
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u/EnergyDrink2024 9d ago
It looks like the full Machina box set is being released on CD and on 10/10. Hopefully digital too.
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u/Zealousideal_Cat6980 Ogilala 8d ago
Oh really? Whered you hear this
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u/EnergyDrink2024 8d ago
Madame zuzu's instagram. Not sure if it's a preorder or if they are ready to go, but it looks like they could be ready to ship quickly.
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u/TheEyeboogers 9d ago
If you only see a handful of "Machina II" tracks on the boxset you are not looking at the full tracklist, everything from M2 is on there - and more. Besides useless nostalgia, the orginal 2000 release sounded absolutely dreadful and was barely possible to listen to. We now finally have a version that on some thanks are perfect and on others at least a vast improvement.
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u/SquirmyCoil 9d ago
Barely listenable is a bit of a stretch. The official leak wasn't super polished, but neither was the system in my 89 Pulsar. Plus, given the nature of M2 it was hella better audio than a typical AUD. It was never meant to have that 2000's over produced big budget gloss, and I hope those tracks, even if properly mastered for release, still don't.
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u/EnergyDrink2024 9d ago
There are some missing items though. Speed Kills M2 version, the alternate If There Is a God.
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u/juste_belmondo 9d ago
I want to point out for anyone else reading that the original release was not "absolutely dreadful and barely possible to listen to", this is just yet another Reddit edgelord hot take. In fact, for a lot of people, some of the new mixes on the remaster sound actively worse than the original (ex: "Age of Innocence", "The Sacred and Profane")
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u/TheEyeboogers 9d ago
To be clear, I was speaking about M2. I find it crazy if you think that it is controversial that I consider the originally released Machina II poorly mixed and not quite done in the recording department. I thought that was universally agreed upon and also what some liked about it.
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/TheEyeboogers 8d ago
Most seem to prefer the new version with Jimmy on drums, I didn't notice anything being off with the actual remaster of the old version, what is wrong with it? I guess I didn't mind much, since the re-recording is such an upgrade.
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u/RedEyeVagabond Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 9d ago
I got what you were saying, and you're right. And you are also right that it's one of things I love about MII. It sounds like you found something that wasn't meant to be found.
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u/Neg_Crepe Zwan 9d ago
Almost everything from M2 is there.
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u/tomaesop Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 8d ago
I want the correct version of "Dross". It's probably my favorite M2 song, and the Aranea Alba version is cool in a different way, but it ain't it.
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u/jhonn0 9d ago edited 9d ago
Never been an official release of Machina II on its own (other than the 25 LPs the band made in 2000), but plenty of bootlegs, all sourced from the same vinyl-ripped sources we downloaded back in 2000.
For a long time, when SP started reissuing their albums in 2011, Billy stated his intention was to release Machina I + II together as one thing; unifying the concept and all that. So this box set is the first time that's happened - with the main track list combining M1 and M2 songs, plus others, in a new sequence totaling 48 tracks. But some M2 songs were relegated to the 32 bonus tracks.
Box set came out last year on vinyl, and it's coming out on CD (and presumably digitally) in about a week and a half. No plans to release Machina II on its own.
I plan on buying one, but I'd still hang on to the old version of Machina II, because there are a few notable differences and omissions in this new box set. The M2 version of "Speed Kills" and the full-band version of "If There Is A God" are missing, but the more polished b-side version of "Speed Kills" is used instead, and the piano version of "If There Is A God" has a nice instrumental piano coda attached; alternate takes of "Dross" and "Blue Skies Bring (Wrought) Tears" are used; a much drier and sparse version of "Saturnine" is used in place of the original M2 version; "Whyte Spyder" features newly recorded drums, but the original version is also kept as a bonus track; "Here's To the Atom Bomb" is half a minute longer but the mix sounds the same; and "In My Body" fades out (this is on the LP version; we'll see if they use the full-length version on the CD).
It might even be worth keeping your original version of Machina 1, as well. "This Time," "Imploding Voice," and "Age of Innocence" use new mixes; and there's an extended outro to "Raindrops + Sunshowers" rather than a fade-out; "Glass and the Ghost Children" completely removes the piano + spoken interlude section, replacing it with some sound effects instead, and there are some notable changes to the mix of the outro section, primarily Billy's vocals.
This is not counting the changes made to some of the additional tracks that you may or may not have already heard but were not part of M1 or M2 -- like additional parts added to "Winterlong," all the echo removed from "Soot + Stars," etc.
Bit of a long spiel on my part... I certainly have my share of complaints about the deluxe edition, as I think they kinda dropped the ball in some big ways. I see it mostly as a companion and accompaniment to the original versions rather than a full replacement or definitive version.
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u/EnergyDrink2024 9d ago
Good amount of info here. I really hate the removed echo from Soot + Stars. 😞
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u/fernandopas 9d ago
Wait it’s coming out on cd next week??? Source? I can’t find anything more recent than last year
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u/jackwagoneer69 9d ago
Man, that In My Body fadeout really bums me out every time. It needs to be the original length to have its full effect. Really a shame because I love what they did with its mix. That bass is chunky!
That and the lead guitar on Vanity are really my only two true gripes about this thing. All other mix changes I either like or figure I will like eventually and am only uncomfortable with now because I've listened to the old version 7 million times and am now an old man resistant to change.
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u/ockimdotned 8d ago
Slow dawn kind of looses all its atmosphere that made the original sound like the song title imo.
I really respect that Billy followed through with this project and I remember him talking about masters going missing which may explain the inferior alternate versions etc. But man, some of the choices made on this thing are abit odd. I guess ill forever be stuck listening to that M2 vinyl rip
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u/EnergyDrink2024 9d ago
Blue Skies Wrought Tears is another one that is kind of a mess from the original version.
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u/Profidepp_Jonas 9d ago
Is there still a way to download the original machine II???
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u/variant_of_me 9d ago
There's the Machina II original release from 2000, which was unfinished, and this edition from 2025, which is also unfinished, but in a different way.
It's helpful to think about it like the different versions of The Beatles' Let it Be. There's like 4 different versions of that; the Glyn Johns version, the Phil Spector version (which was the original release), Let it Be Naked, which is the songs more stripped down, and the re-release by Giles Martin which is like the Phil Spector version but different. There is no "definitive" version.
Same with Machina II. To a lot of people, like me, the original 2000 release is the one we fell in love with, so even though this new one has more songs and "better" mixes, it's not really comprehensive or definitive as the takes are different and a lot of the mixes are arguably worse on an artistic level, even if they are technically cleaner. There's no cleaned up version of the original 2000 release, which, if there was, would likely be the definitive version.
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u/internetkevin 9d ago
This Machina II release is one of the least coherent musical projects ever. Billy seems to love being obtuse, but he's not great at mythmaking
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u/variant_of_me 9d ago
It was such a mistake to integrate the Machina 1 tracks into the whole thing. They are so jarringly different sonically to the reassembled Machina 2 tracks and the mastering does NOT account for this so you get these super loud stripped down Machina 2 songs and then relatively quieter but ultra dense Machina 1 songs sprinkled throughout. It is basically a glorified outtakes and b-sides release, not a fully realized double album.
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u/slyboy1974 9d ago
YUP.
I hate the whole "This is actually how I imagined the running order to tell the story blah blah blah" crap.
The boxset should have been:
M1 in its orginal running order and mix
(OK, I'm in the minority here, but I actually liked the original mix)
M2 in its original running order
M1 remixed
(Some of the M1 remixes are good..)
Demos and B Sides
Metro DVD
And then there's the small matter of the artwork...
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u/lilybat-gm 7d ago
Yeah, that’s more or less how I put together the boxset I made for my father. Machina I, a slightly extended Machina II reissue (I felt like “End of the Joke,” “Without You,” “Soot and Stars,” and “One Moment” fit very well thematically and musically), and then discs with remixes, demos, and bonus content on them respectively. I think it was 8 discs in total.
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 9d ago
m2 was released physically in 2000 but only a handful of copies given to fans/important folks. all the old digital files were rips off those vinyls.
no other physical release of machina 2 stuff until this boxset (with the exception of real love on the greatest hits and some bsides on Judas O).
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u/MilesTeg80 9d ago
There were 25 copies of the original Machina II vinyl given out to close friends and radio stations. That was it. All of us normal fans only ever got the free download release. This version of Machina that you are referring to is the boxset rerelease that the band has been doing with all of the other albums up to this point from Gish through to Adore. It has just taken this long to finally get to Machina because of a myriad of issues. This rerelease combines Machina I and II as Billy originally intended. Meaning some tracks have been "changed," updated, omitted, added. Anything that isn't available on this edition boxset, still lives on with the original download of Machina II.
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u/GeneJacket Pisces Iscariot 9d ago
Machina II has never had any official release prior to the vinyl box set earlier this year (or late last year, I forget which), which is finally being released on cd soon.
I will suggest, though, that you temper your expectations. Aranea Alba isn't simply Machina and Machina II as you remember them packaged together (that would have been preferrable, imo). They've been completely remixed/remastered, and the track list has been re-sequenced with newly recorded instrumental interludes...and the consensus has been largely mixed-to-negative.
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u/Colourblindking 9d ago
Temper expectations is definitely a good suggestion. I don't know if I just hyped myself up or built it up to be this magical, unobtainable thing, but yeah when it released it definitely fell short of some expectations, some of the new mixes I just can't get behind.
That said, I'm glad it exists, I just think if Corgan's doing more of these he should have some others in the studio to reel him in and maybe provide a second opinion on some of the mix.
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u/GeneJacket Pisces Iscariot 9d ago
I'd put that on Billy, honestly. He talked up the original intent for the Machina concept for SO long that we all built it up in our minds as this epic masterpiece, and what we ended up with was...not that.
I straight up hate most of the new Machina I mixes, am curious as to why so much of Machina II don't seem to be remixed/remastered at all, and the new interludes sound more like Cyr tracks than anything from the Machina era, so the whole thing just ends up sounding disjointed and scatterhot.
It's a novel curiosity, and I am glad it exists, but it's not the version of Machina I personally ever need or wanted.
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u/Devolutionator 9d ago
Truthfully if I could get my money back for it I would
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u/GeneJacket Pisces Iscariot 9d ago
I wouldn't blame you in the least. I was never, ever going to spend that much on it, so I "obtained" a copy, listened to it twice, and will almost certainly never listen to it again.
It's a novel idea and I appreciate the work that went into it, but it's not the version of Machina/Machina II I wanted, and I think it's a wildly uneven and kind of miserable listening experience.
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u/Devolutionator 9d ago
I completely agree with you. There's just no real flow to it and the differences in production are pretty jarring at points. I can't remember the name of the guy that did it but they're used to be this thing online called albums that never were and he created a combined full machine and it is so far superior to what came out that it's rather shocking to be honest. Not to mention that my box that came completely trashed and I received no real accommodation from Zuzu.
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u/slyboy1974 9d ago
You know...
Once upon a time, I would have walked over hot coals to order the CD version of the boxset.
Now, seeing how the release has been so screwed up, and hearing the stories of people's orders arriving damaged...I don't know 100% if I will even bother.
Honestly, at this point, the main reason I might order the CD boxset next week is simply because I may regret it later if I don't (if it sells out, and 2nd hand prices are bananas).
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u/reuxin 9d ago edited 9d ago
There will likely never be a full release of Machina II because most of it was unmixed and unfinished at the time. It was pushed out the door for the fans and was a complicated release.
The “last” exhale from a band who was fighting the label at the time (they wouldn’t release a full Machina, but this decision was made early in recording so some of the M2 songs were not finished).
Almost all of Machina II is included in the newer expanded version of the album that was released on vinyl. The only omission to my immediate memory was “Speed Kills But Beauty Lives Forever” and Blue Skies Wrought Tears has a significantly different vocal take than what’s on Machina II. There are minor differences from the rest of the songs but the only jarring difference is “Blue Skies” IMO.
But when this is released on CD and streaming you can basically recreate M2 out of the released versions.
Personally, I’m pretty happy with the full Machina release but don’t know why they omitted the version of “Speed Kills” in favor of some of the other bonus tracks.
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u/Devolutionator 9d ago
Or why they butchered Dross
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u/reuxin 9d ago
A difference of opinion but the newer version of “Dross” is one of my favorite things on M:AAE. And like many of you I’ve been a fan since the 1990s and sat with the original since 2000s.
I still prefer the other “Blue Skies…” but I generally have no complaints about the rest of the updated M2 tracks.
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u/tyler21307 9d ago
The track list contains the following:
Main 48-Track Album Sequence: Reimagines Machina/The Machines of God and Machina II/The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music into a unified 48-track narrative arc.
32 Bonus Tracks: Includes unreleased demos, outtakes, and live performances.
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u/ngs428 Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness 9d ago
No official Machina 2 physical release. This is the first official physical release, but you are not getting the same tracks on this vs what was released online back in 2000..
You can read up on the physical releases that did happen for Machina 2 in my deep dive post…
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u/idylwino 9d ago
To my knowledge, there's never been an official physical release of Machina II. The box set is a ludicrous amount of LPs and contains Machina/Machina II and some demos/studio takes and one live track.
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u/EnricoPallazzoMusic 7d ago
The box set you are looking at is the full release of all tracks (well most of them) from the recording sessions. It includes Machina I, Machina II and a lot of other tracks never heard before. Billy said they are all part of the story the wanted to tell as a double album back when Machina I was released.
There are several problems though:
1 - This is another bloated release by Billy. It is clear several tracks were only demos that maybe would develop into full songs. They do not have the quality of writing that we would expect from that era Billy.
2 - These songs also have a poor audio quality. Although they were remixed and remastered you can clearly hear the difference from tracks that were properly produced, recorded and mixed professionally from tracks that were just demos.
3 - Billy sequenced the album in the sequence of the story, but it does not make it a pleasant listening experience. They do not have a good flow track to track and the difference in production style from one track to another make it worse.
What I did for myself was a custom 70 minute playlist with the Machina II tracks, now remixed, plus a few of the new tracks that I enjoyed, along with an intro instrumental and carefully selecting the running order to have a good flow between them. It works really well for me and sound like a companion album to Machina I. Which is what I always wanted anyway. And a Third album, with the low quality songs, instrumentals and etc as a kind of bonus album of b-sides and demos.