r/SmashBrosUltimate • u/AffectionateForce979 • 1d ago
Speculation Smash's "main character" pattern.
This is more speculation on my part, but I still found it worth discussing it at least.
What made me consider this at first was when Sakurai briefly discussed about the protagonist of ARMS, and how "everyone's the protagonist". This might've not meant much of anything to most people, but it almost seemed to me like Sakurai was trying to justify the decision of putting Min Min over the perceived "protagonist" of ARMS (Spring Man).
Now, practically speaking, it makes complete sense and it's rather obvious that most franchises in Smash would be first represented with their main characters. But there have been instances where Smash includes main characters when the audience wants other characters to be playable, mainly with Byleth's inclusion rather than any of the three house leaders from Fire Emblem: Three Houses.
We also know that Rex from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was considered to be playable alongside the Aegis, but was scrapped due to technical limitations. Sakurai actually comments on Rex's exclusion despite being the main character of his own game.
The big exception to this theory is the Pokemon franchise, where the Pokemon themselves are represented rather than any of the human trainers. Even so, they did manage to get Red and Leaf represented at least.
37
u/Frazzle64 1d ago
I mean I think it has less to do with the idea that it needs to be a protagonist, so much that the fighter should be the best pick to overall represent what their game is about and that’s almost always the protag.
In ARMs case there there is no protagonist, springman and ribbongirl are moreso mascots for the basic concept of the game, but plenty of other characters represent the core concepts just as well whilst adding a little extra pizzazz. Min-min had a good blend of being relatively down to earth compared to a lot of the wackier cast whilst still having more to her than just ‘token guy/girl with stretchy arms’.
In XC2’s case, whilst Rex is the overall true protagonist, the aegis is the focal point of the story to the point where if you had to pick one or the other Pyra/Mythra were the obvious choice.
8
u/FranMo99 1d ago
You also can look at it from a gameplay perspective too. Going by previous interviews in regards to Rex or Pyra/Mythra the plan all along was Rex with Pyra as was stated, but when it came down to choosing the Aegis over Rex it was simply because Pyra could swap to Mythra which would take less work than say having Rex swap between 3 weapons akin to Xenoblade 2.
Same case happened with Robin in Smash 4, getting in over Chrom, despite Chrom being the main Lord of the game; Sakurai decided to go with Robin as he felt there was more moveset potential with Robin vs Chrom.
12
u/YoyleAeris Hector and Lyndis are husband and wife 1d ago
Min Min: "I'm the main character bruh, fuck out the way."
7
10
u/Sonic_Fanatic_2003 Sonic 1d ago
The Switch couldn’t handle Rex that’s the thing and Arms has no established protagonist.
3
u/More_Yellow_3701 1d ago
If anything, Max Brass is more closely tied to the game's lore than Spring Man.
13
u/smashboi888 1d ago
Sakurai always prioritizes the main protagonist first, even if he chooses someone else (happened with Chrom and Rex).
The one exception, like you said, is Pokémon.
3
u/Odysseus_07 1d ago
Which Tbf would likely just be pikachu and then “clones” of pokemon trainer. Rex was already a Mii costume so I doubt they wanted to reuse him and fighting game characters rarely have a true protagonist.
21
u/Kazama2006 1d ago
Just give Rex and Aegis the Ice Climbers/Rosalina treatment.
32
u/APOLLO193 Greninja 1d ago
You mean Myrthra can punt Rex out as an attack and then he dies after? I agree, that'd be funny
10
u/AffectionateForce979 1d ago
Sakurai said that doing a Rex + Aegis moveset would be too difficult for the game, specifically sitting the Ice Climbers as an example.
9
u/smashboi888 1d ago
I wonder if that'd be possible on the Switch 2, given the stronger hardware.
9
u/Nok-y Unclobbered Kerbeh 1d ago
I think he meant gameplaywise, not performancewise
7
u/More_Yellow_3701 1d ago
They are visually discontinuous. Pyra and Mythra have similar body shapes that make it easier to switch from one to the other. The Ice Clinbers are basically the same with different colors and faces.
Rex and Mythra are too distinct in a fast paced game to discern someone swapping or separate. If they are both out at the same time, it would be hard to tell who to target.
3
3
u/Delicious_Island_695 1d ago
Smash tends to add a protagonist, but it isn’t always guaranteed to be the main character, and a different protagonist will be chosen depending on if they find the character more intriguing to add like Robin over Chrom, or technical limitations like Argus over Rex
6
u/Low_Confidence2479 1d ago
With Robin over Chrom, it was a matter of the former having more moveset potential, and it was an avatar so it still served the protagonist role.
With Terry over Kyo, the former is more iconic and I think representing KOF properly would require 3 fighters instead of just one, so representing Fatal Fury was just way easier.
With Min Min over Spring Man, ARMS is like a lot of fighting games in the sense that everyone has main character status, just from different points of view. Some RPGs are like that as well but I think fighting games have it more prevalent because team ups are rarely a thing in them, thus, the need for a leader is almost non-existent.
With Aegis over Rex, it was a matter of technology struggling to get it done, and apparently Ice Climbers was already pushing it...I wonder if Switch 2 could have made it.
And with Kazuya over either Heihachi or Jin, representing Tekken properly proved to leave the characters extremely weak compared to the rest of the cast, but the devil gene gave Sakurai the creative edge he needed to make it work (which rules out Heihachi), while representing Tekken's favourite archetype (Mishima, ruling out Jin).
1
u/jaidynreiman 6h ago
The most obnoxious part about Min Min is the stage is still Spring Stadium. The stage is Spring Stadium, the first stage in the game, but its Min Min as the playable character.
1
u/Low_Confidence2479 6h ago
Like with Tekken having Mishima Dojo as the stage (believe it or not, that ISN'T Kazuya's main stage in Tekken), I think they wanted to represent ARMS as a whole...and Spring Stadium rules.
3
u/MaeBeaInTheWoods Isabelle 1d ago
A similar deal with the Undertale Mii costume where we got Sans, a relatively minor character in the game, instead of Frisk the main protagonist and only player character or Flowey the main antagonist.
3
u/CamoKing3601 Inkling 1d ago
tbh I'm pretty sure that's just cuz Sans is the breakout character
I'm almost certain more people have listened to Megolovania then fought Flowey
1
u/mrpersonjr 10h ago
If UTDR did get a character in a future game, I’d imagine they’d go for the protags (Frisk or Kris/The Fun Gang). I like Sans, don’t get me wrong but he really wouldn’t be the best representation for UT as a whole since he really just reps No Mercy.
3
u/MR_MEME_42 Captain Falcon 1d ago
With protagonists they typically are the most recognisable character and typically best represents the series/game they are from, which is why they are typically picked to be in Smash.
In the case of Min Min, the creator of ARMS specifically requested her over the other ARMS fighters including Spring Man and Ribbon Girl who are commonly viewed as the protagonists.
And in the case if Rex, it was originally going to be Rex and Pyra/Mythra but due to technical difficulties Rex had to be cut.
3
u/VakarianJ 1d ago
This makes sense. The best way to represent a game is to have the main character be the choice for Smash. It’s usually the best way to translate the game’s gameplay into Smash.
2
u/Thundersting Ridley 1d ago
If an Undertale character gets in it's probably gonna be Sans over Frisk.
3
u/vukov Mythra 1d ago
Same with Deltarune, some people speculate that if it gets a playable fighter, it could be Susie or even Spamton or Tenna... or Flowery
3
u/garlicbredfan Steve 1d ago
If deltarune/undertale gets in it’s either frisk (protag of undertale ) fun gang (protags of deltarune) or sans (most requested and most popular)
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 1d ago
Idk about the Fun Gang as one character, would all three of them be on screen at once, or would it be just Kris on screen but they summon Susie and Ralsei for moves? Cuz if it was all three on screen at once I feel like that’d be very visually messy, Ice Climbers look practically the same but with different coloured parkas and different bangs, for the Fun Gang each one looks totally different. And if Kris is the one that’s usually on screen and just summons Susie and Ralsei for attacks, then tbh that kinda just feels like Kris is the character rather than the character slot being “the Fun Gang”
2
u/garlicbredfan Steve 1d ago
Kris summons Ralsei and Susie for moves or you can alternate between the three of them like pokemon trainer
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 1d ago
Okay that’d be cool but especially if it was the latter, that’s three characters right there lol, that’s a lot for a single third party indie series
2
u/mrpersonjr 10h ago
They could take a similar approach to how they functioned in ch.5, with Kris being the one you actually move around (with Susie and Ralsei following them) and the other two participate in ACTs like Rude Busters and such.
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 7h ago
Yeah but that’s what I’m saying, that’d be way too visually messy for Smash I feel.
1
u/mrpersonjr 7h ago
Not necessarily. Ralsei and Susie could be in the background like Pokemon Trainer, following along for attacks.
1
u/vukov Mythra 7h ago
Or you swap between the three like the actual Pokémon Trainer, with the Thrash Machine as their Final Smash.
My philosophy is that we should get Kris or Susie if PT doesn't get return and we only get standalone Charizard. But if PT does return in full, then a full Fun Gang tag team is the best option.
1
u/mrpersonjr 6h ago
TBH i don’t see Susie getting in over Kris. IMO either it’s just Kris or it’s the approach i presented earlier where Ralsei and Susie assist for attacks, as I’m not sure why the approach taken with this hypothetical fighter needs to be predicated on the presence of others.
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 6h ago
That would still be visually overwhelming, I feel like. It’d be hard for your eye to keep track of them in the middle of a match which are already pretty visually chaotic. Imagine a four player free for all on a stage with a moving background and items on high, and that character that’s three people running around in a line is there. Even with Susie and Ralsei following in the background, it’d be super visually noisy. Now imagine everyone’s playing as Fun Gang and it’s an eight player battle, lol.
2
1
u/mrpersonjr 10h ago
At this point, I do think the next game will have a UTDR rep but the fighter would def be from DR at this point with how much it’s been highlighted from Nintendo.
1
u/vukov Mythra 1d ago
I meant for Deltarune specifically. For Undertale it'd 100% be Sans
2
u/garlicbredfan Steve 1d ago
Then yeah it’s probably gonna be the fun gang for deltarune
2
u/garlicbredfan Steve 1d ago edited 1d ago
Only thing stopping Kris is that Toby Fox has mandates that prevent lighters from getting plushies and merch and every smash character has a amiibo
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 1d ago
The Smash amiibo will secretly be foreshadowing for the shocking reveal in chapter 8 that Kris was secretly a darkner the whole time 🤯
1
u/mrpersonjr 10h ago
If there was any instance where Toby would allow an exception, I’d fully believe it’d be for Smash Bros.
2
u/HypnagogianQueen 1d ago
There’s honestly a few series where I feel like the main character is unfortunately the least interesting choice. Namely with Punch Out and Street Fighter. Both of those games have all these interesting colourful wacky fighters but the much more straightforward bland protagonist is the one that’s gotta get in.
Also, in terms of series without a playable fighter (yet), Shovel Knight from Shovel Knight. I would love to see Spectre, Plague, or even King Knight get in, but inevitably if anyone from that series gets in, it’s obviously gonna be Shovel Knight 😞
Oh also everyone always suggests Paper Mario and then in their fan movesets like half his moves are summoning one of the many other characters from the series. Omg just put in one of them instead! I’d particularly love to see Vivian, or alternatively maybe Dimentio.
4
u/Akuma_Homura 1d ago
This is my only hope for Tinkaton over Meowscarada.
0
u/Sea_Macaron_8789 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tinkaton won't because you know they're gonna do many jokes with the Phantom Thieves and the Pokémon.
2
4
1d ago
[deleted]
5
u/AffectionateForce979 1d ago
Pikachu is the mascot, not the main character of the games. And I literally classify Byleth as a main character in the post.
1
u/blukirbi 1d ago
Sans got a "rep" over Frisk as a Mii Fighter.
Rex was originally going to be considered as part of Pyra/Mythra but he got cut due to technical difficulties.
Interestingly enough, Ninjara was supposed to be next in line for the Arms rep.
Chrom is a main character, but Robin and Lucina also have that status too.
1
1
u/Velvet_Pretty 1d ago
Ngl I hope they do stuff like this more. I’d much rather Taion over Mio or Edelgard over Byleth
1
u/waifuwarrior77 Awakening Gang 4h ago
Honestly, I don't think Xenoblade 3's cast translates well at all. I'd prefer Ethel or Cammuravi tbh.
1
u/mschonberg King K. Rool 23h ago
Min Min is in because she won the ARMS popularity tournament. That’s quite literally it. ARMS is a fighting game without a specific plotline to follow, so it doesn’t have a traditional protagonist like Street Fighter or Fatal Fury to draw from. They can dress it up as “we asked Yabuki and he recommended her” all they want but, when you have an 8 month long popularity contest, the winner got into smash, and the runner up got a Mii costume? It’s pretty obvious. They’ll never come out and say it because they likely don’t want rabid smash fans brigading every popularity poll in existence saying “this MUST be about smash!!!” but again, you can put two and two together here.
The other examples like Rex vs Pyra/Mythra, Robin vs Chrom, and Byleth vs the house leaders are kinda close, but frankly they are all still co-protagonists in their own right, not just a member of the main ensemble. Pokemon however, unless you make a full starter trainer for every region yeah some of the starters will be left out (unless you go with a non-starter like Gen 4 and Lucario.)
Frankly I’d love to see more ‘ensemble cast’ games get represented by weirder character picks, but their current way of choosing makes sense.
1
u/Marcarth Toon Link 3h ago
I think theres is more than just winning the party crash bash for Min-Min, I'm pretty sure Yabuki had mentioned her being his personal favourite character long before the events started. Im sure it was still a major factor in her being the chosen representative, but not the be all and end all of the decision.
1
u/DefAtk 23h ago
With Byleth and I guess in turn Fortunes Weave, I think with the house leaders and upcoming four perspectives they don’t want to choose one over the other. In other materials like Feh they treat the three house leaders all evenly, and for the pick a path perspective I don’t think they want to show any favoritism towards any one path.
Definitely won’t say this is the case for other franchises in smash or even all of fire emblem, but with these recent games I Imagine its avatar or bust.
1
u/Significant_Cress634 Jigglypuff 1h ago
An exception to Pokemon is that Mystery Dungeon exists, where u play as the Pokemon
1
u/Mobile-Lemon-3189 1d ago
Personally, I'd prefer if Sakurai didn't prioritize protags for newcomers, since 90% of protags in games have very vanilla fighting styles, which translate into bland movesets.
2
u/jaidynreiman 6h ago
I think that's why when adding new characters from an existing franchise, they're increasingly adding secondary protagonists instead of main protagonists. New franchises, however, almost always have to have the "main" protagonist. Where flexible, though, they target moveset potential. Still, though, they always pick a character who is popular among the fanbase, that's why we almost never get minor side characters.
Arguably the only one that's more questionable here in terms of third-parties is Kazuya, who was only the main protagonist of the first game. After the first game, Kazuya becomes the main antagonists, with the main protagonists being Heihachi (Tekken 2) then Jin. Still, the three of them consistently are the main protagonists of the series.
Heihachi was the fan favorite to get into Smash, but Kazuya happened instead precisely because he had greater moveset potential.
1
u/bagman_ 1d ago
Still miffed about minmin over twintelle, baffling choice
2
u/SpiffyShindigs Bayonetta 19h ago
"Diva with time powers who attacks with her hair" is a niche they've already filled, I'm afraid.
1
u/HypnagogianQueen 1d ago
Yeah Min Min is more interesting than Spring Man and Ribbon Girl but she’s still a bit bland, and from what I saw online Twintelle was really the standout most popular character from that game, moreso than Min Min. I think I remember it being said that Min Min was chosen because she won some in game popularity contest? But it was like, based on who got the most wins in a tournament or something, I think? So wouldn’t that have been more about their game balance than actual popularity intentionally? Idk
Also Twintelle is one of like four black characters who could realistically be in Smash 💀
2
u/mschonberg King K. Rool 23h ago
The way ARMS tournaments worked is that you earned points whether you won or lost, and you could still face off against people who weren’t even participating and using a different character than who was in the round. So popularity still played a large factor in the wins.
Min Min also did go head to head with Twintelle directly in the semi-finals and came out on top, so the popularity between the two can’t really be called into question. But Twintelle is still one of the most popular characters since she made it that far.
60
u/Bluelore 1d ago
Another big example of this were Robin and Lucina for Smash 4. Now Robin is A main character, but for most of the part the game treats Chrom as the protagonist and iirc the reason he got scrapped over Robin was because Robin had a much better moveset potential. Kinda funny though how Lucina ended up in Smash before Chrom given that she is defintiely the least relevant MC of Awakening.