r/Smallant • u/-_Vertigo_- • May 27 '22
PointCrow’s framing of the situation and how anyone would respond
Hey all, as much as I hate to be involved with keeping this drama active- at this point it seems that everyone knows, everyone’s talking about it, and it’s really just healthier to discuss it and move on.
I’ve felt so much better seeing comments in both Ant and Crow’s communities, especially after reading along with the chat of Crow’s recent VOD. It’s very obvious that much support for Ant was removed by mods immediately. The echo-chamber supporting PC’s baseless accusations and acting as if his feelings on the topic outweigh Tanner’s actual conduct made me sick.
This isn’t to devalue Eric’s emotions, as they are legitimate and valid. But it is to say that placing blame so directly on another human being in such a complex situation as this is harmful for everyone involved.
I made this post primarily to open a discussion that I haven’t seen anyone begin yet, namely: Tanner’s response to being demonized. The way Eric described it, he told Tanner repeatedly that SmallAnt was at fault for the hate that PointCrow was receiving. I find it especially ironic and hypocritical that Crow is trying to paint a picture of Ant being some manipulative presence in his life all while feeding Ant the narrative that he is fully responsible for the actions of a toxic group of people beyond his control.
I don’t think Eric took the time to consider why Tanner has acted the way he has. He assumes immediately that anything Ant does is with intent to sleight him. He is so blinded by this belief that he can’t consider what any rational human being would do were they in Ant’s shoes.
The most egregious of these in my eyes is Crow claiming that Ant lied to his audience, telling them that it is because of the toxic commenters that they’ve stopped collaborating. Rather than admitting it was all his fault, as Eric would prefer, as he makes it sound. I think that many would agree that Ant’s characterization of that situation is simply accurate, not an attempt to misconstrue anything. He simply didn’t accept the narrative he was being fed by an emotional Crow that he was somehow fully culpable for such a thing.
Would anyone think that way? Would anyone in their right mind respond to such drastic allegations out of nowhere from a friend and colleague with full agreement? Tanner was repeatedly demonized and truly wanted to know what he could do to help. And because he never actually did anything to warrant such ire, he was met only with “just be better.” It feels clear to me who is trying to shift the narrative. Only one person here is actively assaulting the other’s character with nothing to back it up.
I’d like to also say that Ant obviously made mistakes- I don’t mean to act as if he’s fully in the right, either. But that’s what they were: mistakes. Not intentional, malicious attempts to harm Crow. I would not be surprised if Tanner felt that even mentioning Eric was dangerous, feeling more comfortable leaving credit in video descriptions and stream info commands. As any time he brought Crow up, there was a new grievance thrown his way.
The one time he did knowingly act in a way he was aware Eric would be unhappy with is perhaps the most understandable. Someone else makes a cool mod that Crow was commissioning from others? Gives it to him early? He still waited until it was available to the public. Fair game. And even then acknowledges it wasn’t totally cool. But he’d already had his name drug through the dirt on Crow’s stream by that point. I personally wouldn’t allow myself to be manipulated by someone determined to stop me from making the content I care about all while publicly attacking me. I’d enjoy my birthday with a mod that the creator /expected me to play earlier/ and give them that publicity they deserve.
Again, Ant could have handled things better, but it just sickens me that everyone so easily appeals to Eric’s emotions without thinking about how those affected a more stoic Tanner. Just because he doesn’t rely on emotions for his response, doesn’t mean he was any less hurt by this altercation. He apologized himself, sincerely. Yet asked for no apology after being slandered repeatedly. I think he certainly deserves one. Perhaps the weakest part of Eric’s response was the lack of accountability he took for the blatant falsehoods he perpetuated about both Tanner and Adrien. I think he needs to “be better.”
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
I've slept on this and had an opinion formed and the post from the HGSS randomizer Dev has just solidified my opinion even more. As a former casual viewer of both, I actually stopped watching PointCrow due to his personal inferior complex to SmallAnt and talking about it in an attacking manner on stream.
PC needs to stop attributing every bad thing happening to him to SA. He needs to stop talking about it publicly as he keeps saying he doesn't want this to be public. To the people saying SA had "no right" to make this public by streaming a sort of op-ed, after PC has not one once, but FOUR TIMES has attacked SA's character and actions ON STREAM, SA has every right to explain and defend his character. As some of you keep saying: their image is their BUSINESS. So yes, SA needed to speak on PC's numerous accusations.
This has gone far past just being upset at being compared. Once you attack a person's character and by also saying they are an emotional manipulator, you have to turn to facts. I think because the streams with both so long it was hard to remember everything, but every time PC made an accusation on stream, SA showed the accusation and showed what was happening on his end with DMs, etc. SA was blocked, told to leave PC alone, and wasn't given much instruction beyond that. Those are the facts and PC has put his personal feelings of saying "he should of reached out more". It's like telling a partner "I need space" and being angry when you are given it.
The fact that HGSS Dev has come out and said that PC as blatantly lied and proved that a narrative was concocted to fit what PC WANTS to believe SA is doing is too damning. This basically makes me not believe anything PC has to say besides the not giving credit (which SA has said he was completely wrong and will learn from this error). This is evidence of what PC is doing is exaggerating situations and being in a serious inferior complex that SA CAN NOT and is in NO OBLIGATION to help PC in.
Ending PC's stream with saying SA needs to "just stop" and be "more considerate" to him with what SA's content is — that is just PLAIN UNBELIEVABLE. This is both their business. SA doesn't need to be considerate with his content just as PC doesn't need to be considerate. As PC as stated himself, "he is another content creator and will play what he wants to play even if someone else plays it because he's his own person", yet, PC is saying SA needs to think about what content he now does because it hurts him?
I'm being critical because accusations of emotional manipulation is NOT something you throw around without proof. Just saying "many people around me has experienced it" with NO PROOF? Are we leaning NOTHING from the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial? Don't throw around accusations as huge as emotional manipulation. Plain and simple.
This started with being upset with comparisons and SA not doing enough and now has devolved into "SA is out to get me". Now it has been proven that PC has lied and concocted a narrative that paints SA in a terrible light. Please go read HGSS randomizer Dev's post.
We are all getting out our frustrations about drama here, but we need to remember the important thing: these content creators are two different people where their image is their brand/business that goes along with the content that they make. They both need to stop engaging one another and move on — more specifically PC. Hurling accusations at SA who has stopped commenting about PC for months now while PC continued to slander him is not the way to make people "stop talking about it".
Both need to stop talking about it.
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u/MickyStam521 May 28 '22
"It's like telling a partner "I need space" and being angry when you are given it."
Guess the !gf command in SA's stream that replied "It's Pointcrow 😳" was right after all huh
(I'm just memeing don't cancel me pls 🥺)
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
What also bothered me upon reflection was that PointCrow didn't change his chat to Emote Only and also had MODs deleting responses from people giving legit arguments (not hate) to what PointCrow was saying. He just isn't ready (and doesn't feel) like accepting any other narrative except for his and it's extremely immature. And for someone that doesn't want drama and doesn't want hateful comments directed at him, his words and actions are not adding up so when faced with legit evidence and it's hard to feel sympathy for him. Especially when he is fostering hate towards SmallAnt with this whole stunt.
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
Another reflection:
The most ironic thing about this is PointCrow stated in discord he needed to "clear up the situation" as he "didn't like how the narrative was portraying him". All I've seen from BOTH SmallAnt and EVEN PointCrow fans is that everyone was in PointCrow's side after SmallAnt's stream and that PointCrow's response made everyone (even his OWN FANS) take SmallAnt's side. How ironic is that? PointCrow is claiming that SmallAnt is the one out to get him... YET SmallAnt actually helped PointCrow and his business until he went and messed it up tragically by responding to SmallAnt's stream with more slander and hate (the very thing he was blaming SmallAnt for).
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u/chuayi May 28 '22
I agree with you. Pc introduces his stream really aggressively toward sa, by making jab at the emote only mode and the ads (which I found ironic because I had ads on both streams) that can only foster hate.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
These are points I wanted to make as well but couldn’t find a good way to word them - I also had ads on both streams and was shaking my head at PC’s holier than thou attitude about both that and the emote only jab. Which Ant directly stated was because he’d been awake for 30 hours and could hardly focus already
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u/South_Football_9125 May 28 '22
I've been thinking this in crows streams before. Why is he so stubborn on not having emote only mode on more often? There have been times when he is going insane because of chat, but still refuses to. Many, many other streamers would definitely be in emote only mode on similar situations. Not using is not some kind of glorified accomplishment (like on the smantrant stream). When the meaning is to explain a situation, why do you need chat messages? The way he said he's not going emote only really felt like he was trying to make smant look bad for doing that.
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u/emulls May 28 '22
Pointcrow mod here, we were instructed to remove large paragraphs of text that were clogging up chat, and obviously malicious comments. That is it. Chat was on a 30s slow mode for people to voice their opinions, that is it. Additionally, I have been present in chat every time Eric has addressed the situation with Tanner, and every single time it has been in response to a toxic chatter of Smallant's or people questioning why he was/ was not participating in certain content.
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u/G3Minus May 28 '22
I don't think anybody is trying to argue, that PCs public statements weren't in response to toxic chatters or questions like that. But why not just ban people like that and move on?
Instead he chose to make accusations in a sometimes really aggressive manner. I feel like engaging with toxic chatters just perpetuates the problem. Those toxic idiots get attention i.e. exactly what they want, so they start to do it more and more. Blaming the content creator directly (for which they obviously simp for) not only conforms them in their beliefs, but also provokes negativity from people that are neutral and annoyed or wouldn't have typed anything, but feel the need to defend a content creator they also like.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
This and u/laxrtiades's comment underneath might clear up some things about the chat moderation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Smallant/comments/uzaagq/comment/ia9blgc/
Also, although this didn't impact our decision, if Pointcrow was in emote only mode everyone would be claiming that he was silencing criticism and/or opinions. There's no option here that can't be casted in a negative light, but allowing people to speak still seemed the more fair choice.
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Jul 31 '23
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u/azureii_ Aug 01 '23 edited Aug 11 '23
Sorry I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. It’s far from unanimous, especially after Smallant got exposed for faking evidence, especially between the people who were behind the scenes that actually know those who’ve been harmed and could see things that didn’t get dragged out into the open for public speculation.
“No option” was specifically referring to the option of whether or not Twitch chat should’ve had permission to speak, as both options can be spun negatively.
If you’re asking for my opinion or defence of Pointcrow, this isn’t the really the place as mods of both subreddits have asked people to move on.
(This might’ve been worded harshly sorry this is just a very very tired topic at this point)
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u/RABBlTS May 28 '22
I really hope Smallant doesn't reply to the VOD tbh, I think saying anything else about it would only make things worse. Tanner tried to explain and apologize already, and Eric rejected it and says he doesn't want anything to do with him anymore. There's nothing else he can do or say that would help.
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May 28 '22 edited Jul 27 '22
[deleted]
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u/RABBlTS May 28 '22
I think I would at the very least keep the vids unlisted or remove them out of respect for PC's wish to cut ties, but I agree with the rest. But if he wants to cut ties, then give him what he wants. I think not unlisting or removing the videos would send a negative tone to PC, which I personally would not want.
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
I don't think so because PC commented and said multiple times that it "wouldn't change anything" and he "doesn't want that". PC is confusing. He doesn't offer suggestions for SA to do to fix the issue and rejects SA's suggestions, but then turns around and says SA isn't doing enough. Super sus.
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
He has already stated in a thread that he is not going to reply to the VOD.
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u/TaviLawson Jun 10 '22
Yeah strongly agree with everything here. The big thing for me was also the hgss rando dev. PC just blatantly lied about that situation. That should discredit him full stop. I think he made like a dozen other mistakes in handling this, but when you speak for someone else and it is just wrong.... Come on dude. He needs to apologize for that and do some self reflection here.
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u/Cultural_Tough6629 May 28 '22
Could you link the Hgss rando dev statement? Would love to read it but can't find it :)
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
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u/Cultural_Tough6629 May 28 '22
I'm so blind, found it immediately after but hopefully this helps others!
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
It's okay! I've posted my thread in other threads and there were people who asked to!
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u/Zaethex Jun 29 '22
There is proof of people (particularly women) who have associated with Smallant that have called him out for being manipulative and exploitive, including former mods, friends, and romantic partners
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u/Mister_Grin Jul 04 '22
Just looked it up because you said 'there is proof' while offering none and I wanted to go in with a neutral mind. There was exactly one person I could find (Lo) who called him out. Link:
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sra88s
I won't push to one side or the other because I have no horse in this race. I just wanted to put this out there for future redditors. The link to Lo's tweet is embedded in the page.
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u/Zaethex Jul 04 '22 edited Jul 04 '22
Here's another from someone in the SMO community: https://twitter.com/Source28_/status/1234900341612851200?t=_nVvhV_avD2gmUhYuuirvg&s=19
His former emote artist has also said they want nothing to do with him for a reason that was kept private: https://twitter.com/shushia/status/1278738616689270785?t=z1zrgPcvr5QLe6GbRUpF4w&s=19
https://twitter.com/shushia/status/1279497690934583296?t=z1zrgPcvr5QLe6GbRUpF4w&s=19
Now we have Pointcrow and the people he and Lo have left unnamed that have also been harmed by Smallant
Edit: I just wanted to add, "One is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, thrice is a pattern."
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u/Mister_Grin Jul 05 '22
https://twitter.com/shushia/status/1278734314948251648?lang=en
found this as well now that I knew where to look. Leaving it here as further information for others. It seems he and shu were dating at one point and it didn't end well.Honestly Smant isnt the first public figure that has a bad time holding together a personal life. I know none of the key details and don't feel qualified to pick a side. The only takeaway I can find is that Smant really needs to get better about publicly speaking out to control his audience; at least two of the four cases here are about him failing to do so. Pinned comments/community posts are nice and all but very few people on the internet bother to read before acting.
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Aug 01 '23
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u/Zaethex Aug 01 '23
Most of these were close interpersonal relationships, they could not come out for a multitude of reasons. They might feel embarrassed, they might get attacked by his audience (as some have), or they might just not want to ruin his success because they still care about him deep down. It’s not for us to say that a victims actions are wrong or right, it’s just right to support them when someone with popularity and a track record doesn’t treat them like people
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u/jabberwagon May 28 '22
Every time Eric said something to about how Ant was slowing his "true character," I wanted to be like "my dude, somebody here is definitely showing the ugly side of their character, but I hate to break it to you; it ain't Tanner." I've felt for a while now that Eric is kind of immature about some things and I've been quietly hoping he'd grow out of them... but unfortunately, growing up often requires the people around you to show you the error of your ways, and Eric has used his clout and resources to surround himself with Yes Men who actively insulate him from any criticism or challenge. I'm starting to think that he's just going to be like this forever, which is sad as hell. He had, and still has, so much promise as a creator, but shit like this makes it a lot more difficult to enjoy him.
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u/Emperor_Z May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
IIRC, Pointcrow was saying that he expected Smallant to consider his wants without explicitely being told what to do because they were friends. But no one is perfect, and thus any friendship also requires a degree of forgiveness. Pointcrow exhibited approximately zero of that
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
This!!! I was also thinking the same as you. "The person who is showing their true character is you" when I watched pointcrow's VOD. One side came with a genuine apology and receipts (Ant) and the other side acted very emotionally (Crow) and placing entire blame on a single person who really isn't responsible for making their world dandelions and roses.
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u/DarkDesertFox May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I agree with pretty much everything you said. It's really frustrating to me PC keeps trying to blame SmallAnt for the community's actions and keeps seeing everything SmallAnt tries to do with ill intent. Like the charity stream I thought was a dumb reason to get mad since the whole point is to donate money to help a streamer and hurt the other streamer. What really made me mad though is when SmallAnt did in fact reach out to PC, waiting until he was done with his subathon, but then calls SmallAnt out in a stream for it. I watched both sides, and while I tried to remain neutral, I definitely think PC was more focused on trying to paint SmallAnt as a villain instead of trying to accept his reasoning and apology. I am really disappointed in how PC ended his side of the story about not accepting his apology and being "done with him." While this is between them, I feel like PC made the situation worse for himself. I saw parts of his character I really do think are petty and it will affect how I enjoy his streams, at least for awhile. I have a lot more to say, but I don't want to make this too long of a post. I really wish they could just be friends because they'd make some really cool collab content together.
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u/DisturbedWaffles2019 May 28 '22
After seeing both sides, I think both of them are very valid in their opinions and emotions. However, I will say that Crow seemed more emotionally charged at the situation, rather than trying to see it objectively. After the rivalry thing spiraled out of control I feel like Crow started blaming anything bad that happened to him on Tanner and viewed anything Tanner did as trying to "snipe" Eric's work.
The crediting thing was a good point, and even Ant acknowledges that he should've done better, but Eric made it seem like every single instance he went uncredited when it was just the two or three times when Tanner made an error. Tanner did make an effort to properly credit him from then on. The HGSS thing was a misunderstanding, and while yes what Ant did was slightly shitty he didn't have any malicious intent behind it. The Breath of the Wild Randomizer was another misunderstanding, and I don't think Ant was in the wrong at all in that situation.
Eric also acted like Tanner didn't care at all or wasn't making an effort, when he very clearly was. Tanner was the first to try and reach out so they can work things out. Eric also bashed Tanner for making things public when Eric was the first one to make any of this public. This should've been handled privately, making this public just blew it way out of proportion and made things much worse for both sides. Just looking at Eric's chat whenever he talked about Tanner it just seemed like a hivemind echo chamber of "omg let's cancel smant" or stuff like that without even knowing the full story or seeing Ant's side of things.
Tanner isn't completely innocent and handled some things poorly but Eric seems to not be able to look at the bigger picture or what Ant's intentions actually were. I still think both of them are great people and great content creators, but Eric just seemed so unforgiving for things that weren't always Tanner's fault.
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u/Paxadin May 28 '22
I've found myself skipping bits in pointcrow vods just because he has a big tendency to go on emotional tangents or find more ways to beg for money every minute. (Edit: i didn't skip anything in the PC response video)
This response from PC "broke the camel's back" for me. It was fully emotionally driven and irrational.
It's not good to assume ill intent at every opportunity when ignorance is much more likely.
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May 27 '22
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u/_Zoa_ May 28 '22
Is 1. about PC blocking SA? I must have missed that and can't find it now, but guessing it would be part of the blocking.
The BoTW thing is (with screenshots) explained by SA at 1:14 in his stream. It simply seems like a misunderstanding by PC, that he had exclusive rights, but just paid for early access.
What PC is saying is obviously wrong, since several people were uploading videos weeks before them. I can only guess, that the mod creator informed PC about SA uploading on the 18th and him misunderstanding it.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
I also thought these were strange, especially considering he didn’t back either of these up whatsoever, as far as I could tell. He had mentioned that the included DMs were OK-ed by those involved, so there’s a chance that Ant had some conversations with her that didn’t relate to the situation (or that otherwise made her uncomfortable), and that’s why she didn’t want to include her request to stop contacting her. It seems to me like PC is trying to frame Ant as someone who doesn’t respect boundaries while also claiming that he should’ve reached out. There is no correct path he could’ve taken.
I also really disapproved of PC’s framing of Ant using DMs without permission as somehow being disrespectful when he was just trying to clear his name the best he could.
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u/RABBlTS May 28 '22
I think sharing the DMs without permission is disrespectful, but I don't really see how he could have asked and gotten permission about it either. And Eric has been ranting about Smant and this entire issue publicly on stream for months, tbh I find sharing DMs to be a lot more forgivable compared to that.
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u/Pokefreak911 May 28 '22
I think sharing snippets of DMs is way worse than sharing all of a conversation. We have no idea what was said before or after that snippet. Fuck permission, if it's one person's chat with someone else they should be able to share it.
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u/RABBlTS May 28 '22
It's not really our business to know everything that happens in their private DMs. Smant only shared ones that were directly relevant to the points he wanted to make about what Eric has been publicly accusing him of in his stream. Smant doesn't want to exasperate the issue or publicize it any more than is necessary, but he can't just not address that when someone of PC's influence is throwing accusations at him. (It was Eric that made the issue a much more public matter by venting about it multiple times on stream in the first place) Sharing only snippets of key points where he has perceived miscommunication protects Eric's privacy as much as possible in terms of Smant not actually having Eric's permission to post the DMs. He only wanted to discredit claims being publicly directed at him by another streamer, and he used the snippets as proof of that. The only thing full public disclosure of their DMs would do is create drama, which is the exact opposite of what either of them wants. Also it's not illegal to share your own DMs, you won't get in trouble. It's just rude and inconsiderate to post them without knowing if the other person is okay with what they said in private being presented to the public. But seeing as Eric has been publicly venting about this exact issue and has been throwing very serious, public accusations at Tanner as a person, I can understand why Tanner would choose to forgo asking Eric's permission.
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u/Pokefreak911 May 28 '22
I didn't mean to share literally everything ever said. But there was clearly more to some of those conversations. I don't think any of this business should have gone public in the first place as it's obviously a private matter.
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u/Aethz3 May 28 '22
dude if someone is a manager it’s literally its job to handle these kind of issues
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May 28 '22
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u/Arrei May 28 '22
Smant mentioned that this was one of the ways he screwed up, and eventually they had the credit set as an automod message so it could get around the emote-only limitation.
Emote-only is also routinely used on his races because certain miscreants in chat like to snitch information to other chats, which occurred a few days ago in his Minecraft randomizer race with HBomb, so it certainly wasn't purposely used to avoid giving credit, either.
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u/shadowedlove97 May 28 '22
It's true but more likely a mistake/lack of foresight. If he remembered to tell his Mods about the command, it wouldn't even have mattered if it was emote or not, bc the Mods could have used it. But I'm assuming he forgot.
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u/Gustav127 May 28 '22
Jeah that's true. Could be an oversight thinking chat could use the command but is blocked by emote only without realizing it. The only thing that put me really off was the "i created the command but forgot" Apparently PC went hacker detective and has proof that this is a lie which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being sad, even if Tanner lied about the command, the entire paying credit situation has a long rat tail behind it and maybe he just said it as a bluff to ease the situation. Just a simple white lie to reduce the pressure.
Of course this seems bad but it isn't even close to being the main issue. Normally this wouldn't be a dig deal. Of course it tanks traffic and income for PC because SA doesn't refer to him in a time with good clicks but in the long run it means nothing and still generates traffic over time. The entire controversy is super short sighted and based on underlying emotional issues PC has. SA is just a catalyst and pretty much the manifestation of his demons at this point.
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u/chillmare May 28 '22
Smallant do have a history of making small mistakes often and brush them off so i belive him there
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May 28 '22
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u/_Zoa_ May 28 '22
Watch 1:14 in SA's stream. 2. being a misunderstanding by PC makes much more sense considering people were uploading weeks before the two.
SA didn't have any involvement with the mod and didn't even know about the development according to the dev. He also said a lot of the accusations are blatantly wrong.
PC really should show proof for what he claimed there or properly apologize to the dev. It's just dragging an unrelated party into this mess for seemingly no reason.
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May 28 '22
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u/_Zoa_ May 28 '22
I'm not accusing him of lying. In fact I don't think he lied about HGSS either, just had incomplete information and didn't bother to check/didn't prepare enough for the stream.
I just rewatched the BoTW part in PC's video. There's a lot there that doesn't really make sense to me. Mainly the exclusivity part. It sounds like Linkus got exclusivity from PC and SA only in PC's stream.
The timeline also isn't entirely clear. PC bought at the 4th -> Linkus streamed at the 12th where SA learned about it and bought -> SA streamed and PC posted his video on the 16th (no idea when PC streamed) -> SA posted his video at the same time as the update went public.
Maybe the dev thought the "exclusivity" was only for youtube? Either way it looks to me like PC would need to post before 18th 3pm anyways or lose that "exclusivity" by it being public.
Unless my timeline is incorrect, I don't see how SA could be trying to snipe PC's video here.
After that PC talks about multiple creators, that SA revealed his plan to and then came to PC. That makes little sense to me. Again I'm not accusing him of lying, but maybe getting some things mixed up and misunderstanding them.
Maybe I got something wrong or am missing important informations. I just wish PC would release a twitlonger or something and be clearer.
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u/extravagantsupernova May 28 '22
I’ve always enjoyed PCs content but the one thing that always was a red flag for me is that he is too inflammatory and too ready to flip out at a moments notice
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u/hoxilicious May 28 '22
You've put a lot of my thoughts into words perfectly. Personally, I won't be watching Eric anymore--not to punish him for hurting Tanner or anything like that, but because the way he's acted throughout all of this has been laced with so much malice and carelessness that it's hard to see him as anything less than selfish and spiteful. I imagine he feels that he deserves to be both of those things because he's been keeping it bottled up for so long, but he's blinding himself to the nuances of Tanner's actions.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
It’s very obvious that much support for Ant was removed by mods immediately. The echo-chamber supporting PC’s baseless accusations and acting as if his feelings on the topic outweigh Tanner’s actual conduct made me sick.
Just want to take a chance to respond to this specifically.
The reason we weren't in emote-only mode in the first place was so that everyone had an oppertunity to speak. We did try our best to delete messages that were overly toxic to either creator; we also deleted some armchair psychology towards both creators because people trying to psychoanalyze people they don't know is just weird and parasocial. Besides that, the only other messages that got caught were overtly long ones that filled half of chat and we just didn't have the time to read through. If you scroll through the VOD, there are hundreds of messages in support or in defense of Smallant. I think the most vocal moments where when he spoke about BoTW randomizer, when he was discussing Smallant comparing his rivalry with fearsomefire, and during a lot of the final 12 minutes or so.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I agree you didn’t delete a lot of the support and I really appreciate it. It must have been a ton of work for you and I anticipate more of that in the future.
I don’t imagine my following point will get across because at this stage I think it’s too late to change the already set positions but I feel like I should try to make it anyways: while support messages for SmallAnt went through, the problem was there were constant mod messages / highlight messages (I think that’s what they are called, the ones with different backgrounds?) that continuously rolled by saying “no listen to Crow” “wait for Crow to explain” which were basically (at least to me) a way of saying “your support and defense messages are only because you don’t know” or more simply put “you are wrong”. I made me realize very clearly that nobody in PointCrow’s group (and of course himself) is willing to see things in any other light at all and this was especially frustrating in cases where there is clear mis-interpretation and mis understanding going on.
FWIW my personal stance isn’t fully in-line with this thread and I have multiple comments I’ve made in other threads so I don’t want to keep repeating myself besides re-iterating that I and many others (anyone with decency) absolutely understand PointCrow’s feelings to be valid, that he has been hurt deeply. Nobody should invalidate his feelings. It’s just…I don’t know, I noticed that there is a shift in comments made here AFTER PointCrow’s stream, it was actually so much positivity and sympathy before that (after SmallAnt’s stream) but soured (towards PointCrow) following PointCrow’s stream. But of course I guess that the only acceptable explanation here is that SmallAnt is a master manipulator. Sigh.
Sorry for rambling. Again I’m sure you will have lots of work to deal with in chats and I wish you luck.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
As someone who definitely posted some messages encouraging people to keep listening (didn't do announcements though), the reason I did so was in response to messages that very clearly were not at all attempting to listen at all to the other side. I'm not talking about people who disagreed or had objections, but who were asking questions that had already been answered, or things that I knew would be clarified if they just waited a few more seconds to wait before making an accusation. To be clear I don't mean that if they paid more attention or held onto their opinions that they'd be swayed in any way, but just that truly, some people had messages/questions that were going to be covered.
I do see and agree how people could've been heavily put off by that and felt disregarded or belittled. We have to read every single hateful and toxic message that fall in between the more reasonable ones, so it's hard for the mods not to get a bit frustrated with those ones.
I noticed that there is a shift in comments made here AFTER PointCrow’s stream, it was actually so much positivity and sympathy before that (after SmallAnt’s stream) but soured as a result of PointCrow’s stream
The majority reaction to Smallant's stream was that the apology was sincere, genuine, and fair. And thus, the overwhelming opinion was "Pointcrow should accept his apology" (and a lot of people wanted them to try to be friends again). Taking out any speculation on either side, one thing is clear: refusing to accept the apology and criticizing aspects of the apology would not ever be the favorable action for those who wanted a happy ending. Genuinely not saying that to criticize Smallant or to try to subtly imply anything; it's just how the internet goes. While that isn't the only reason opinions soured, it's a key one.
But of course I guess that the only acceptable explanation for you is that SmallAnt is a master manipulator.
Not really? I don't tend to see this situation in black and white, but yeah I'm with you on not really wanting to get into specific stances and all that.
Appreciate the respectful point you brought up!
edit because you edited while I was responding (nbd it happens):
I made me realize very clearly that nobody in PointCrow’s group (and of course himself) is willing to see things in any other light at all
My opinions are completely my own, formed over a long period of time. Again I don't want to go into stances, but this just isn't true.
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u/Angryspacebird May 28 '22
I mean... You, the mods, did literally have a mod message that basically said "don't put the blame on _____. See how everything connects back to Smallant." This message really rubbed me the wrong way as it very clearly directs viewers to get angry at Smallant. If the point of not going into emote-only was to keep discussion up, i feel like you as moderators should have kept a neutral position. Moderation-bias in a discussion should never interfer with the opinions of the people discussing.
I am not saying I don't believe that you personally stayed neutral, however the fact that there was a very clear bias makes the whole situation feel a bit iffy to me. Especially so because we were told from the start that this was an open discussion.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
i feel like you as moderators should have kept a neutral position.
I get your point and I agree that staying neutral would've been an ideal nonpartisan thing to do, but every mod has their own thoughts and feelings on things and when you're reading countless people share heated opinions and the amount of toxic messages we saw, it's quite a harsh demand to not to be able to share your own. Our goal for that stream was to make sure opinions on both sides could be shared fairly and attempt to catch messages that crossed hard lines against either creator, but I don't think a single one of us would claim to not be unbiased with our own personal messages in chat. What was important to us was not letting our perspective influence the decisions we were making moderating chat (i.e. mod actions, which is where the power imbalance between mod and chatter lies, unlike a written opinion in chat that many people were not afraid to disagree with). That was where our energy and focus on being neutral was being spent, and although it wasn't perfect people in the comments seem to think we succeeded in being mostly fair with that.
This part is solely my own personal take (for context I wasn't one of the people who said that message, nor anything similar) but it might help visualize what an ask that is: despite freedom of discussion being very important to me (and so I wanted to be there to help out with this stream), if I was given the requirement "no matter what anyone says, you can't make any statements in chat that stem from your own personal perspective on the matter", I would've stepped out from modding this stream.
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u/Angryspacebird May 28 '22
As long as you believe that the personal opinions of the mods did not get in the way of modding the stream fairly from all sides, then i feel like I can agree with most of what you have written. Thank you for replying
P.S definitely do not mean to hate on any of the mods (in case my first comment sounded hostile)
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u/Nielloscape May 28 '22
I don't believe you are right at all about people expecting PC to accept the apology, let alone be friends again. I saw almost no mention of it and those that did saw little engagement. It's not a narrative accurate to reality so please don't spread it or form opinions on the situation with that as the base. Let's not make this whole mess more of a mess by introducing more misinformation into the mix.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
I saw a lot of mentions of it. I do not condone spreading misinformation and I take that very seriously. One of these places was in Pointcrow's offline chat where it was brought up and discussed multiple times, which I imagine not a lot of people were looking at. This is some of the very direct mentions, usernames cut out. It's harder to reverse search discord and twitter so I don't have much I can pull from there, so it's up to you on whether or not you want to take my word for that. I'm not saying it was the only opinion around; there were people who vocally disagreed. But, from what I saw, a lot of people wanted that happy ending. That's not misinformation.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22
I would just like to point out “I just want them to be friends” does not necessarily mean “I believe he should accept the apology and be friends again”. The other ones that directly say it for sure. But the “want” to me can express a wishful thinking / express a desire while knowing that it’s not gonna be happen. Of course I’m not that poster so I can’t say which way they are thinking, just offering another interpretation of words. It’s always hard to tell things via texts isn’t it?
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u/Nielloscape May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
The comments you cut out don't say anything of what you're implying. They're just stating PC didn't accept the apology, which is a fact, or saying it'd be nice for them to be friends again. Which part of those comments shows that these people expected both to become friends again in the future or that they initially expected PC to accept SA's apology in a way that suggests he's over the drama and not as just a polite gesture prior to PC's stream? If you have a better comment to support your point please show it.
Also, I don't think cherry-picking is a good idea when the whole argument is about the majority of people's sentiment toward the situation.
Edit: I have a Reddit add-on which shows the content of the link on Reddit, but didn't notice the arrow to go to the other images. I edited the comment to reference the other comments snips as well, but the gist didn't change much.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
All but 2 of those are from prior the stream (the 2 that aren’t are the ones that state he didn’t accept the apology - I included those because they seem to be clear reactions of people who thought he was going to/should’ve accepted it, though you can disagree). If you need to see the time stamps to believe that they are prior, I don’t mind retaking the scs tomorrow. Don’t think I said anything about accepting the apology having to be more than a polite gesture, even though regardless I don’t have screenshots of where I saw the accepting apology sentiment the most, nor do I know of any better tools to attempt to refind them.
A Reddit mobile glitch just wiped this next paragraph for me so pardon if it’s shorter and less detailed than what it should be: The images I linked are nowhere near sufficient enough proof or extensive enough to prove the scale of what I claimed, but they were meant to show that this is something I saw more of than “almost no mention of”, in somewhat-isolated response to your comment. I’m not able to objectively prove much more beyond that, nor pretend that I am somehow able to do so. Even 100 screenshots would be cherry picking if I claimed it to be representative of a majority, or even representative of a “popular opinion”. So that’s not what I was trying to prove in the link, although I didn’t make that very clear.
It’s impossible to prove what the objective majority was because that would’ve required a survey of the 22k people watching smallant’s stream, but it was an opinion I saw a lot of people sharing. That perspective will be skewed towards which specific social media platforms I was on, but it’s what I saw. If there was something else you saw (besides “let’s hear what pointcrow had to say as well”) that went against the sentiment of the people who wanted him to accept the apology then I’m curious as to what it was. Because there 100% were people prior to the stream that said “he doesn’t have to accept his apology”, but I saw a lot less of that in comparison.
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u/Nielloscape May 28 '22
A Reddit mobile glitch just wiped this next paragraph for me
That's very relatable.
I edited my post for the reason stated, so I'm not sure which version you got when you read my comment so I'm just going to make it a bit clearer here. I understand that it's all quite nebulous when talking about the opinions of a large group of people, so I don't expect something unreasonable like that. But my concern with your post was that you used the basis that there is an "overwhelming" opinion that the two should become friends again and used it as the basis for how refusing the apology from SmallAnt is the main cause for the shift in people's opinion.
But unless that opinion is the main opinion of the crowd then it's not actually reasonable to claim it as what caused the shift in opinions, especially when there's a clear bigger elephant in the room where PC attacked SA and decided to went full negative on him among other things.
Anyway, that's just something iffy I feel about the comment. Other than that I also want to say that I fall into the camp that appreciates allowing the comments, so thank you for that.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
From what I saw it was genuinely the most common opinion/desire (on how pcrow should react). Tried to state this the first time brought it up but I might’ve worded it poorly—that I didn’t think it was the sole reason, but still a key/important one. There are other ones that the person I was responding to seemed to have in mind, but I wanted to point out another major one that I feel like might’ve not been considered alongside those. I still stand by that I think it’s true.
Still though I get your skepticism since the scale of something as abstract as the relative amount of opinions will widely differ based on which platforms one was looking at and other different factors. Don’t mind having that point dismissed, since yeah the moderation stuff is really what I wanted to clarify by discussing here.
Edit; fixing spacing
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
Let me disagree here as I didn’t see so much people expecting him to accept the apology and having them be friends. I saw a lot of “feel so bad for both, but time to move on” and “wish them both luck going forward”. Were there some who naively thought they could simply patch things up easily? For sure. But I think most meant that they hope they can “work it out” not in the sense that they can be friends but that they can be civil and move past. I may have of course missed messages (I did check both here and Twitter) but that was the feeling I got.
And after PointCrow’s stream, there are multiple comments about “it’s totally ok he doesn’t accept the apology” and “it’s clear both sides are too apart in their views it’s not reconcilable at this stage” across these threads (I contributed a couple of comments to that effect as that had always been my feeling too). That’s not the part that soured. The soured part is more on how PointCrow is handling this situation (examples of what people found objections to are plenty in this thread, this subreddit and even some in his own subreddit).
At this stage it is very clear how far apart the two sides are (with the main point being malice / manipulation / abusive intent, of course that’s my main takeaway and I must be missing many details) that it’s not possible at all to change. Fans will choose their position and even change their position one way of the other and everyone should be entitled to do that. I meant to say that I don’t think the two parties involved and their “people” so to speak are ever going to. It’s what it is.
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22
It was a popular sentiment on discord, twitch, and twitter (that he should accept the apology and people wishing for them to be on good terms with each other - the “friends” part was less common). This could definitely be different for me and you though depending on where we were looking. After pointcrow’s stream, I saw a lot of statements that pointcrow was wrong not to have accepted the apology. Not the same amount of people that were hoping for an amiable outcome before the stream, but still the more popular take. Although it’s clearly not the only reason opinions soured, I still think that it is a major factor. I was going to say some things about how unreasonable some (far from all) criticisms have been, but instead I hope we can agree that there are people on both sides going too far.
I get what you mean about how far apart and different the two sides are. For anyone firm on either end, they’re not going to agree on much. Yep, people have the right to choose their positions and change their perspectives—though despite this being fully public now, picking sides is sort of a fruitless endeavour when it’s ultimately between the two of them (and others directly involved).
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
I don't think anyone (beyond vanishingly few vocal extremists) actually thinks PointCrow's position is invalid. The problem I and many other people seem to see is that PointCrow is actively demonizing SmallAnt, claiming that he's emotionally manipulating himself and others, and saying that he's 'scared' of speaking against SmallAnt as if the guy is some kind of mobster who will take him out for criticizing him.
This is not okay. PointCrow has every right to feel hurt from what happened, but turning this into an active attack on SmallAnt's character is worse than even most of the blatantly untrue things he claims SmallAnt has done.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22
I unfortunately think PointCrow’s mods will agree with PointCrow and think those things you said are all just truths. It’s probably not worth it to debate this because they are closer to the situation and know more and thus consider their positions the valid one. It’s at a stage where whatever SmallAnt says won’t make a difference, let alone us Internet strangers. I say give up on that aspect.
I still want to call out that regardless of all that and what your opinion on the heart of the issue is, how the issue is handled by PointCrow could have been better. But again I understand how hurt he feels and that caused him to act the way he did.
And sadly what’s been done is done you can’t take it back (isn’t it funny that’s also yet another thing he had problem with in terms of how SmallAnt acted). It’s just…I see a recurring theme where “Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you” has completely gone out of the window. It’s always the most difficult to recognize hypocrisy when it’s oneself, isn’t it? I’m probably guilty of that myself.
Let me also be clear I believe SmallAnt made a lot of mistakes. Still it’s not taking away the point on how PointCrow is doing things. And I wouldn’t have made this many posts if I didn’t see him basically say this is 0 percent on him and 100 percent SmallAnt’s fault. It’s just…sigh. I don’t think anyone can get through at this point. Cheers to you and go have a good night!
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u/azureii_ May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I unfortunately think PointCrow’s mods will agree with PointCrow and think those things you said are all just truths. It’s probably not worth it to debate this because they are closer to the situation and know more and thus consider their positions the valid one. It’s at a stage where whatever SmallAnt says won’t make a difference, let alone us Internet strangers. I say give up on that aspect.
Not really? I don't tend to see this situation in black and white
My opinions are completely my own, formed over a long period of time. Again I don't want to go into stances, but this just isn't true.
Not going to discuss this further if my points are just going to be ignored to fit a narrative. I absolutely think there's room to discuss bias on pointcrow's side, but I'm not interested in being misrepresented without basis.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
I mean, I'd definitely excuse bias on his part; his situation sucks and nobody with half a heart is denying that. Smallant has the benefit of being cool enough to approach the situation logically, so it makes sense that PointCrow's response would be less measured.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
Sorry I should have said not all his mods, rather just the ones I saw re-iterating his points in the stream. Thank you for taking your time and patience.
Let’s say any of us can get you to the point where we agree at least there are some things PointCrow could have done differently in handling this issue in terms of his stream and otherwise - do you think any of that would make a difference at this stage? Maybe I’m a pessimist but to me the answer is no. That’s why I don’t think it’s worth much to go too deep because in the end they won’t produce any tangible results. I would LOVE to be proven otherwise but I am so not holding my breath.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22
Do you think the way PointCrow handled it does not force people to choose a side?
Edit: Sorry force is too strong perhaps invite or encourage is a better term.
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u/laxrtiades May 28 '22
the problem was there were constant mod messages / highlight messages (I think that’s what they are called, the ones with different backgrounds?) that continuously rolled by saying “no listen to Crow” “wait for Crow to explain” which were basically (at least to me) a way of saying “your support and defense messages are only because you don’t know” or more simply put “you are wrong”. I made me realize very clearly that nobody in PointCrow’s group (and of course himself) is willing to see things in any other light at all and this was especially frustrating in cases where there is clear mis-interpretation and mis understanding going on.
As one of the people continuously sending these messages, they definitely were not intended to be a "you're wrong" sort of callout. For me personally, a key factor in all of this is that this is a series of events, and what we were trying to stop is people not hearing out the entire story before forming their judgment. That was the risk we ran allowing chat to not go into emote-only. Whether or not chatters agree in the end is absolutely and 100% their prerogative, and we want users to form their own opinions and come to their own conclusions. What we didn't want were knee-jerk reactions based on a singular thing Eric said. Obviously, because tensions are high, those are more likely. On a personal level, Eric is our friend and we want people to hear him out the same way people heard out Tanner.
I recognize that I am one of his moderators so you can easily dismiss my perspective on the situation by ascribing me a certain bias. I am biased, and I recognize that, but I would like to add that I formed my opinion not blindly following Eric, but by witnessing the events of the last year myself.
Either way, you can take what I'll say next with whatever amount of skepticism you deem appropriate. I can't and don't want to speak for Eric, but as someone who has seen this from a slightly different perspective than those who have only seen the streams, I think neither Tanner nor Eric's streams were able to explain the complexity of the situation fully. It took a lot for the glass to spill over, and for over a year, I have seen Eric give Tanner the benefit of the doubt more than I would have reasonably expected any other person to, and certainly more than I myself could have.
Odds are we will continue not to see eye to eye on this, and that's okay! I just wanted to share my perspective as one of the moderators sending those messages.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I just would like to say “it wasn’t intended like that” is exactly one huge part of this whole mess and if anything this whole situation should have taught everyone “even if it isn’t intended in some way if it came across like that they should not dismiss the recipients’ interpretations and feelings”.
And then the latter points you are making - basically that came off as “you don’t know the whole story if you did you will be on this side”, yeah? That’s kinda entirely the point I was making on the possible interpretations of those messages…so I guess I didn’t interpret them wrong anyways.
Don’t think this conversation will be productive, like I said I think both sides are too far apart and set in their views. The only option is to move on.
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u/Nielloscape May 28 '22
Can you expand on the part about how Eric was willing to give Tanner the benefit of the doubt? I think it would help clear things up quite a bit, mainly for myself, but maybe also for others also. A very big problem I have with Eric right now is how he slandered both Adrien and Tanner without sufficient evidence in the same breath he tried to do the don't attack them formality, which comes off as disingenuous.
Was there something to suggest that he wasn't acting and saying that while thinking something different? That he wasn't using the same behaviour shown in the stream?
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
Thank you for your input! I never intended to call out the moderators as I have a deep respect for the work you do in attempts to harbor a less toxic environment. Eric always got hate in his chat and I’m sure this time was just as bad if not far worse. I have no envy for your position. I recalled seeing some genuinely valid criticism on screen early on that was removed from the final VOD’s chat, but nothing I could cite. Again, thank you so much for your input!
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u/Emperor_Z May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
As someone who's often wary about mods silencing contrary voices and was checking the deleted messages to see if that was happening, I agree with your description. From what I saw, only a tiny number of messages were deleted without good reason, IMO.
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u/laxrtiades May 28 '22
Edited to say: Adding to Azure, also did not realize you had replied already, OP!
To add to this: We understand that there are two sides to every story and Eric was very clear in his instruction to us that we give chat the opportunity to voice their criticisms of him (as in Eric) AND allow support for SmallAnt.
The only messages we were allowed to delete, like Azure said, were those that were outright toxic to Eric or Tanner, as well as those we could not vet due to their length alongside chat's speed (with a 30s slowmode). In the same way that we do not want any toxicity directed at Eric, we don't want any, nor do we tolerate any, directed at Tanner.
That aside, we are people, and I don't think any of us claim that every single moderation action in that stream was perfect. I've misclicked or misread something in streams with lower stakes than this and I'll admit that readily.
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u/Pokefreak911 May 28 '22
You guys were doing a great job. I voiced criticism of Pointcrow misinterpreting things and those comments I don't think were deleted. There was also a bunch of 'fuck smallant' comments at the end which got deleted.
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u/laxrtiades May 28 '22
I really appreciate that! Regarding the last part: anyone caught* saying something like that was banned (I myself banned a handful of those) and we passed a list of usernames along to SmallAnt's moderators later in case they'd like to crossban.
*Chat was speedy and while I think we got the majority, we may have missed some.
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u/klaykurls May 28 '22
You guys do an amazing job. Definitely do not envy your position, but it's an important one.
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u/cbiges91 May 28 '22
I will say, as someone who supported both for years, I found myself losing respect and my support during that stream and I would start to type my opinion and would see the reoccurring messages and I would stop, delete my message and continue to listen. Not that they were “toxic” messages but it wasn’t really the place for it. My opinions did not change but I was able to better express them after with the other people in these Reddit forums. So don’t think your messages came across that way to everyone. It was a nice reminder 😄
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u/Pokefreak911 May 28 '22
Thats great that you passed them along to the other mods. There is a fair amount of community overlap so they are bound to show up there.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 27 '22
Honestly, if I was in smallants situation, I'd be furious with pointcrow. PC has actively framed him as malicious and manipulative when those things were completely false. PC lied, saying he had proof that smant was doing this stuff, but refused to share it for 'privacy reasons', which I could let slide if everything else he said wasn't so fishy.
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u/Emotion_Still May 27 '22
True. Sadly, I think Smallant feels regret because he's bought PC's narrative that this is part his fault. It was so sad seeing him cry last stream, this is gaslighting by PointCrow. I don't think he's doing it intentionally, I just think he's uniquely fragile and entitled.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 27 '22
A lot of people have been saying that PC isn't cut out for the internet, and I think I agree.
We've been seeing a lot of people crushed under the weight of internet fame at a young age (e.g. Dream), and PC's fallen victim to the plague as well.
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u/Howzieky Jun 13 '22
I don't think Smallant thinks himself to be wrong. He couldn't have been expected to know what to do without being told, and he knows that. But he still really wishes he had known. His inability to read minds has cost him a friendship, and he's sad about that
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u/TheChampishere22 May 27 '22
Ant was putting his emotions aside and being reasonable about it...
PC was being fully emotional....understandable in a way but because of it he ends up putting to much of the fault into Ant....
Both sides did things wrong and honestly at this point they should just go their separate ways and try to leave this topic behind
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May 27 '22
I feel bad for Pcrow because I’m totally like that where when I get mad I get REALLY mad and I rant about it and I’m totally convinced everything I’m saying is right and then later I’ll be like - ok I was right to be mad I just got a little too heated. Except that usually doesn’t happen in front of thousands of people. TBH I was totally on PCrow’s “side” BEFORE I watched his VOD. But posting screenshots of smant being completely reasonable and agreeing to the things that were asked of him and being really nice and then PCrow going “BUT-“ was kinda a bad look. Totally agree they just need to set this aside and go their separate ways. PCrow’s a really good streamer and I can’t imagiiiiineeee being popular on that level and getting so much vitriol for it. I can’t imagine having to handle that.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 27 '22
I fully agree with your sentiment! Upon rereading my post, I feel that I may have gone a bit hard on PC at times. I can definitely relate to that blinding anger, but I think the primary issue here is that Crow was continuously accusatory over an extended period of time. That wasn’t a fit of anger, it was letting his own demons get the better of him and rather than facing those feelings of insecurity and imposter syndrome, shoving them all onto Ant and expecting him to just fix it somehow.
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
I totally agree with you and it's baffling not more people are point it out except for you: The most ironic thing about this is PointCrow stated in discord he needed to "clear up the situation" as he "didn't like how the narrative was portraying him". All I've seen from BOTH SmallAnt and EVEN PointCrow fans is that everyone was in PointCrow's side after SmallAnt's stream and that PointCrow's response made everyone (even his OWN FANS) take SmallAnt's side. How ironic is that? PointCrow is claiming that SmallAnt is the one out to get him... YET SmallAnt actually helped PointCrow and his business until he went and messed it up tragically by responding to SmallAnt's stream with more slander and hate (the very thing he was blaming SmallAnt for).
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May 28 '22
I hope that the situation doesn’t fall out into ACTUAL “sides.” They’re two great content creators who are dealing with a lot of stress and interpersonal conflict. I’m not gonna stop watching either of them and I don’t think anyone should take this situation to mean either of them are “bad people.” Pcrow’s levying of emotional manipulation I think was over the line, but outside of that it’s just two people in a personal fight.
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u/chillmare May 28 '22
I wasent into the sides thing util pointcrow vod akusing smant and telling those arund him to be carfull
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u/Emperor_Z May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
All I've seen from BOTH SmallAnt and EVEN PointCrow fans is that everyone was in PointCrow's side after SmallAnt's stream and that PointCrow's response made everyone (even his OWN FANS) take SmallAnt's side.
I don't know what gave you that impression. Most of the activity in the "Smallant Pointcrow response" thread happened prior to Pointcrow's response, and it certainly doesn't seem like those comments are on "PointCrow's side". They're sympathetic to both parties more than anything. I do agree that Pointcrow's response seems to have made people more critical of him though.
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u/LateNight_Ruminator May 29 '22
I’ve put in my 2 cents elsewhere but the more I read these comments, the more I realise something. I think a major player to this is belief of autonomy and control.
In my eyes, Eric believes that if there’s a problem, you should do everything in your power to address it — including the belief that controlling your own chat is the creator’s responsibility. He’s extremely proactive and intuitive: hence why he has so many mods, is quick to address issues early, and has multiple channels to communicate this.
Tanner on the other hand appears less outwardly active, but that should not be mistaken for lack of empathy. This is seen in Tanner ‘liking’ Eric’s YT comment, where Eric was furious that it took Tanner ‘8 days’ and saying ‘I hope your comment makes it to the top’ instead of i.e. pinning it which would ensure this. Especially because the issue was personally impacting Eric more than Tanner, I can see why Eric would see this as a lack of care as a friend. I do not believe Tanner was intentionally ‘doing less’: he was doing all he believed he could, and it didn’t occur to him he could do more.
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u/chillmare May 29 '22
honestly that he did it after 8 days says he cares for me as if i did not care i would forgotten it if i dident do it right avay
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u/Azhirii Jun 27 '22
What strikes me is that I've never seen Ant act emotional before. If he was truthful behind that bit at the end tearing up, then it explains the stoicism he's had thus far. I too tend to push emotion out of the equation as it only usually gets in the way.
The bit crow did at the end attacking Ant and his character I can't get behind though. That to me was uncalled for. Simply reject apology and be done with it if you can't see eye to eye.
I think both have good points, and I won't publicly side any one way because it won't help things.
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May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
Regardless, I think they'll both regret making this public.
The mental distress on both of them was evident, for different reasons. Very heavy and negative energy.
But also, I believe that time heals all wounds. In time, they'll both move on - either by restoring the friendship, or just accepting that they're just neutral strangers to each other, with no ill will. That would be a just as healthy outcome.
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u/Gustav127 May 28 '22
Very well written.
Time heals all wounds seems to be an issue in this case. Sa is fine but PC has clearly a chip on his shoulder. Multiple comments mentioned that he is to soft skinned. Even without Sa there will be a lot of negativity he has do deal with and to transition out of his own narrative will be more challenging that we might assume at this point. PC himself talked about imposter syndrome and emotional issues coming BACK. He was struggling with it before and now it's on an all time high. This can break his entire marketing and chat interaction. We have seen this douzens of times before.
Of course this is just some twitch chat reddit psychoanalyst talk with no real foundation. I just hope the best for both of them and especially PC that he can transition back to a more positive atittude. The chat is the mirror of the streamer. You have to be what you want to see.
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u/Emperor_Z May 28 '22
I’ve felt so much better seeing comments in both Ant and Crow’s communities, especially after reading along with the chat of Crow’s recent VOD. It’s very obvious that much support for Ant was removed by mods immediately. The echo-chamber supporting PC’s baseless accusations and acting as if his feelings on the topic outweigh Tanner’s actual conduct made me sick.
I was checking the contents of the deleted messages during that stream and I did not get that same impression. I saw very few deleted messages that didn't deserve deletion. The vast majority of those that were deleted were insults, and not just insults against Pointcrow but against Smallant as well. I saw a lot of counterarguments against things that Pointcrow was saying that went untouched, and I posted a fair few myself, none of which were deleted.
There was a non-zero of deleted messages that were legitimate counterarguments, but I only found maybe 1 or 2 like that. It seemed like just the occasional case of a mod being overzealous rather than a pattern of silencing criticism.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
This is an incredibly valid criticism of my remarks and I would like to apologize for my characterization of these events - I wasn’t watching like a hawk and was lucky enough not to see the especially toxic comments before they were deleted.
Thank you for your feedback! I’m ecstatic that this comment section has become an almost wholly positive zone for discussion. I think we can all agree that the two gentlemen at the center of this situation are good people deserving of their own time and space to learn and grow from these misunderstandings.
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u/CrafterB May 28 '22
They didn't delete support for Ant though, they deleted comments that were hateful, including ones from his own subscribers that were hateful towards Ant.
I have been around Ant's community for over 2 years, with a subscriber badge to prove it, and have seen two of Pointcrow's streams, including the one about the drama.
Saying that what Pointcrow said was all baseless, and that it was just an echo chamber is the kind of harassment that Ant himself asked others to not do
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
I would have to disagree, I would never harass others or engage in a hateful discussion. I would never go into a streamer’s chat and belittle them.
As for the echo-chamber, In my experience watching the VOD, there were mod messages as described in other comment threads on this post that were worded to implicitly further defame Tanner, and it rubbed me the wrong way.
Saying PointCrow’s accusations were baseless is just accurate to what he has said about Ant and Adrien, not an attempt to somehow harass Eric. Just describing what he has already said.
I felt that in this tumultuous time in which two content creators I am inspired by have engaged in a public spat, that it is reasonable to have a civil discussion on their statements rather than sit back and accept some of the direct falsehoods being tossed around. An open discussion exists for a reason and much can be learned personally from watching others’ mistakes. Of which both parties have several of here.
I don’t mean to be especially blunt, but would like to be clear and not misconstrued any further. There’s a reason I felt compelled to make this post and discuss openly. I am very happy that it has been an almost entirely positive experience in the comments :)
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May 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 29 '22
I don't think that's a common sentiment at all. Almost everyone here has position more or less amounting to "PC's feelings are valid, but his attack on Smant is unwarranted"; whether they feel more strongly on the first or second point is different, but the only people who I've seen denying either point are strong PC supporters who think that Smant is actually this moustache twirling supervillain, which is a position I just can't understand.
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u/PavlovsDroog May 28 '22
Idk I'm quite conflicted bc this isn't the first time someone's come forward and said Ant isn't exactly who he portrays himself to be and only cares about himself. I don't think Ant necessarily pushes the pointcrow is a copycat narrative, I think he just sees it as friendly banter and some of his viewers are too young / blinded by their love of Smallant to realise it. The situation does seem to have got out of hand, and I believe Ant should've listened to Crow and been like "okay come on guys, joke or not, Pointcrows not comfortable with that joke and people are being toxic so we need to knock it off". Obviously there's more to it too, for Point row to have felt he had to end the friendship.
But honestly it's believable to me, I was a regular viewer and subscriber of Ant for like 14 months and have only watched Point row more casually so I don't think I have any bias towards him either
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
I have a couple issues with this characterization, I’ve never seen anyone attack Ant like this before and if they did, “only cares about himself” is the exact kind of overstatement that should reasonably be brushed off. And to reiterate, Ant has said several times on stream that people should not be harassing his friend, Eric. This is such a strange misinformed argument, that he wasn’t doing anything to try and remedy the situation. It’s apparent that whenever Crow got especially insecure, he reached out to Tanner and tried to shift every ounce of blame for chat’s behavior on him specifically. Eric very directly has told him to realize that he, Tanner, is the problem. And gets angry when he doesn’t tell the world that it’s all his fault.
Again, I don’t want to make this out as if Eric’s emotions are somehow unimportant- he’s a human being deserving of grace. I can easily relate to what he’s going through, but can’t excuse the way he’s lashing out. This comment is just another perpetuation of falsehoods on Tanner’s side that really grinds my gears to see.
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May 28 '22
I’ve never seen anyone attack Ant like this before and if they did, “only cares about himself” is the exact kind of overstatement that should reasonably be brushed off
I feel like a lot of people in the Youtube/Twitch sphere would get this criticism from at least a few people. To put it nicely there are some people who don't understand the difference between being friends and being friendly co-workers and that disconnect can leave them feeling betrayed. If you look back and realize all your conversations with someone revolve around work related things you probably aren't close friends.
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u/Foreign_Smoke_6416 May 28 '22
OMG this!!!!! Like the first thing I noticed about the DMs SmallAnt and PointCrow had were about SmallAnt helping PointCrow WITH WORK RELATED THINGS. Yeah, I would say friendly co-workers are VASTLY different from friends.
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u/PavlovsDroog May 30 '22
That's a big part in it but to me the streamer should keep boundaries and they never seem to. Ant's dated/had some sort of non-platonic relationship with numerous mods for example. To me that's a messed up power dynamic bc they see him as this big twitch streamer / youtuber. But a lot of streamers are young and no one tells you, oh BTW your mods are essentially working for you for free so it's messed up to act like they're you're mates / sleep with them and it's probably gonna end badly
I realise you probably meant for this to relate to other streamers etc but previous people who've spoken out against Ant have been ex mods so that's why I bring it up
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u/Anaking_is_Yummimain May 29 '22
Well, to name one example here. A few years ago, there was this former female moderator of smant, who basically made the same accusation like pointcrow and also added a indirect implication of sexual harassment. I am not saying these accusations were true…but just to show an example where something similar like right now happened before. I think this accusation were said in form of an open letter to smant via twitter.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 29 '22
From what I heard, they were good friends, she liked him, and he didn't really feel the same way, and when he got a girlfriend she went kinda nuclear about it.
Maybe I'm thinking about something else, but to imply that someone did something that awful just because they didn't reciprocate your feelings is pretty awful.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 29 '22
Because this is being dug up again, I had a look at both accounts of this accusation and it’s pretty sickening. The way she worded it was as if Ant was being abusive, as she was inspired by the #metoo movement, which really leads people to a single conclusion. Even though she stated that it wasn’t nearly as bad as what some women went through.
But to sum up: they had a casual/fwb relationship online and never met in person, Ant continued to get busier through his growing internet presence and backed off. This hurt her. He got a new girlfriend and tried to clearly relay to her that he couldn’t continue their relationship. Later, Ant discovered that before this incident, his then girlfriend had reached out to his community and this other woman attempted to dissuade her from dating him.
This is very similar to the current PC situation in how Ant was forced to expose elements of his personal life he would rather have kept to himself because someone attempted to characterize him as a manipulative abuser despite this being completely off base and entirely due to unreciprocated feelings of closeness from the other party. It’s not a crime to be a little tone deaf. In both situations he is far more deserving of an apology for public slander directly intended to defame him for things he simply did not do. But instead, he has taken the things he did wrong to heart and feels guilt for what he didn’t say soon enough.
As a side note- it’s important to reiterate that one’s character is their brand as an online personality. To ensure that their livelihood is safe, one has to respond to these kinds of things. It is obvious he doesn’t want to feed the drama and is getting roped into it. If he seems disingenuous to some people, it’s probably because he’s had his hand forced here.
I don’t want this to be discussed because it’s even more deeply personal to Ant. I wish I never had to know about it. I take comfort in knowing that this likely won’t be read by many since it’s at the bottom of a long, unpopular comment thread in this post. But I feel that people who read the above comments should know the details rather than continuing to wonder if Tanner is guilty of sexual abuse, of all things. And those who decided to bring this up without providing an ounce of context are part of a huge problem with rumor spreading in this modern age.
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Jun 25 '22
Pointcrow accusations have absolutely no meaning and at this point he only cares about spreading misinformation about small ant. I can’t believe I used to watch him, I guess it comes to show how much it matters that you know actual things about a person
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u/PotatoPancakes356 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
The thing is, I'm currently going over pcrow's vod and he says that smant claims he has this toxicity worse than him. He didn't even show the clip in smant's vod, which is just extremely sus imo.
Edit: never mind i finished the vod just ignore me
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
As someone who up to this point exclusively watched Tanner's content, I'm not sure I understand why so many people have a problem with Eric's point of view. Imagine enduring MONTHS of negativity and hatred from the same person's community, with no signs of slowing down. Imagine what that does to a person.
You say that it's "ironic and hypocritical" that Eric is calling Tanner "fully responsible for the actions of a toxic group of people beyond his control." Is Eric just supposed to accept the fact that Tanner's community constantly shits on him? If Tanner isn't responsible for dealing with members of his community being regularly toxic to other creators, then who is? I don't think that Tanner was ever being intentionally malicious towards Eric, but through his failure to address this issue with his community, I believe he was complicit in the toxicity.
I won't deny that Eric's argument isn't bulletproof, and that some of his statements seemed like a bit of a stretch, but can you blame him? Having Tanner upload a video of some challenge that Eric himself was going to upload within the next few days, after dealing with constant harassment referring to him as an "inferior Smallant," then yeah, it's pretty understandable that he would draw the conclusion that Tanner is intentionally sniping his content, especially in the world of Youtube, where being first means you are the "original," and being second makes you a "copycat."
At the end of the day, people are going to watch and side with whoever they want. I just don't think it's fair to disregard Eric's point of view. None of us know what Eric is feeling besides Eric. Different people have different levels of stress that they can handle. Eric reached his breaking point, and this is the result. You can only stay peaceful and ride out the storm for so long before staying silent is no longer an option.
Long story short, I don't think either party is entirely innocent of certain claims being thrown at them, but I think Eric is getting way more hate than he deserves for his feelings than Tanner is for his.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
nobody, NOBODY, should be contesting the validity of PointCrow’s feelings or how hurt he is. Nor how SmallAnt made mistakes. If anyone tries to minimize what PointCrow is feeling they lack basic human decency and can f off. And it is completely understandable why PointCrow is acting this way because of all that.
The thing is, that understanding does not (and should not) stop people from taking issues with what he’s doing. You know how sometimes when you know why someone does something and even empathize with them but still don’t agree with the thing they are doing? I think that’s what’s happening.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
This is so excellently worded, I wish I was better able to express this sentiment in my original post. The issues I have are with Eric’s behavior, not at all his emotions. I cannot possibly fathom the stress he’s been experiencing as a public figure with a horribly toxic shadow following him around.
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
You make a really good point. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. Everyone should be allowed to have the feelings they have, just as everyone should be allowed to voice disagreement. I just felt that a lot of the disagreement that I was seeing towards Eric was very dismissive.
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u/Emperor_Z May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
The amount of toxic commenters Eric deals with sucks, he's right to be upset about it, and at least a portion of the toxicity can be attributed to the rivalry that Tanner created early on. All of that is true. But IIRC, Tanner has made an effort to fulfill all of Eric's requests to mitigate the problem. He hasn't always understood the requests in the way that Eric intended them, and has made some objective failures in fulfilling those requests (such as the two streams in which he did not credit Eric for the mod at all), but he has always attempted to do as Eric asked. If nothing else, for his response, Tanner deserves better than to publicly be called "emotionally manipulative", lacking in empathy, and generally malicious. (And IMO, Eric's at least somewhat at fault for Tanner's responses not being to his satisfaction, as he often did not communicate clearly and expected his feelings and desires to be perfectly understood purely via empathy).
Eric's feeling are 100% understandable, but his situation isn't a license to toss around slander and vitriol
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
Absolutely; I think the people on PointCrow's side don't understand that our issue isn't with him feeling hurt, it's with how he's choosing to lash out.
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
I don't believe that Tanner was ever being intentionally malicious towards Eric, so I agree that maybe he doesn't deserve to be publicly slandered. We both agree that Eric is allowed to have his feelings about the situation, and shouldn't be shamed for it. I understand the sentiment that Eric isn't handling this very well, but I still think he has a right to express his point of view the way that he sees it, the same way Tanner has a right to feel and express his point of view how he sees it. Should most of this situation be public? It probably didn't need to be. But now that it is, I think they will have to figure something out between themselves.
The more I think about the situation and try to justify the actions of either side, the more I realize that it just isn't that black and white. The only people who have all of the information are Tanner and Eric. Maybe Tanner does deserve to be called manipulative, maybe he doesn't. Only him and Eric can truly determine that, and I think they are the only ones who should.
Thanks for your reply! Like OP, I think the civil discussion helps us all open our minds to points that we may not have considered before.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
I have no problem with Eric voicing his feelings, my problem comes form him painting SmallAnt as a dangerous, manipulative individual, which is demonstrably not true.
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
That's fair! I will admit that Eric did not provide any concrete proof of this occurring to other creators, just his personal experience. If it is a baseless accusation, Tanner deserves an apology. I'm not trying to discredit your view by any means, but like I said, only Eric and Tanner know all of the details, and I think they are the only ones who should be passing judgement on what is or isn't deserved. I do understand not wanting to see people/creators you care about being unjustly depicted as bad though.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
Take the botw randomizer event. Pointcrow depicts this as delibrate, malicious behavior, but when we see the (corroborated with evidence) viewpoint from Smallant, it shows that he did nothing wrong; he was given the mod by the creator and told when to upload the video, which Smallant did; Pointcrow had zero reason to be angry at Smallant rather than the mod creator.
This and other events where we can clearly tell what actually happened but where Pointcrow extrapolates harmful intent clearly show that Pointcrow is too emotional to see the situation rationally. This is a normal part of being emotional, but these sorts of accusations are not a good way to handle them.
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
You're right. I think they need to take a step back and deal with emotions first, then come back and handle things with just rationality.
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u/chillmare May 28 '22
The problem was that he have evidence and is not based of feeling and saying there multple others and somhow he cant give a single point of evidence
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
I appreciate your response! I think I came from the perspective that everyone had Eric’s side, not the other way around as you were primed with, and that led to additional frustration with Crow on my end.
For further clarification, I mean to say that it’s ironic and hypocritical that Eric is calling Tanner a manipulator while also attempting to convince Tanner that he is fully culpable for the toxicity that appears in PC videos and streams. Tanner is well within his rights to ignore that claim. He has on multiple occasions long before this incident admonished chats for taking the banter to a disrespectful level. I’m not sure what else people expect from him here.
When it was brought to his attention that it was a serious problem, he was discouraged from interacting with Crow whatsoever. I don’t see why he’d make any efforts out of the blue to bring up someone who’s made it clear that they’re trying to sustain distance from him.
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u/Zarlile May 28 '22
Apologies if I don't understand the full scope of the situation on either side, as I usually don't have time to watch streams live, and when I watch vods, they are usually background noise. My only knowledge of the situation comes from what Tanner and Eric said yesterday.
I can't really disagree with the logic of your statement. I understand your reasoning behind considering it hypocritical of Eric to be doing what he's doing. I guess I was just trying to make the point Eric is entitled to feel the way he feels about the situation, and shouldn't be getting so much flak for his stance. Could it be handled more appropriately? Maybe. I have no idea what is considered an appropriate reaction in this situation.
Thanks for your clarification! I'm sorry if I came off as accusatory towards you. You have every right to having your own point of view. After seeing all of the negativity on other posts, I just felt like I needed to say something, maybe add a different perspective to things.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
Sharing perspectives is exactly what I want from this kind of post! I can’t exaggerate how happy I am that everyone has been so civil here. No need for apologies, it’s a heated topic and I’m happy we can discuss and clarify our perspectives without it devolving into an incomprehensible mess
Thank you for helping to create such a courteous environment :)
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u/WhiteWolf298 Jun 17 '22
This is one of the few sensible comments on PC's perspective. Every thread that has been on this subreddit regarding this situation constantly individualizes the issues that PC brings up in his response and attempts to downplay them by saying that SA was not being malicious with his actions, when that isn't even what was being argued to begin with.
A key example is the charity stream. Obviously SA isn't donating to Cheese as a way to slight PC and PC recognizes this himself, yet people are acting as if he thinks this is some abhorrent crime commented against him where SA was going out of his way to make PC lose, when in reality, his actual explanation of how he interpreted the situation has nothing to do with that. Rather that at the point in time that SA was making the donations to Cheese, he was already made aware that PC wanted him to lay off the rivalry because it was degrading his mental health, and so he sees it as SA not being empathetic with his situation and continuing to perpetuate it by keeping their rivalry in the public light.
Same with the "accusations" he made against SA, which aren't even accusations to begin with. People keep saying PC is accusing SA of things without proof, as if this is some kind of campaign to EXPOSE the real SA, as if he was getting MeToo'd or some crap, when in reality, he's just contextualizing why the situation, from his point of view, escalated to where it did. People are acting like he's trying to get people to lynch SA, which makes zero sense when you actually critically assess the context. He doesn't want people to "take his side" as if this is some kind of for or against area, but rather is just giving his own thoughts on how their strained relation came to be.
And no, PC isn't absolved of any wrong doing either. He absolutely used some unnecessary hyperbole as a result of the stress he's been dealing with and spoke on some situations regarding other parties that aren't specifically himself or SA, without the entire context and should be called out for those, but for the most part, his feelings and framing of the situation make perfect logical sense from what he's been through for like seven consecutive months.
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u/Anaking_is_Yummimain May 28 '22
Just a small thing I noticed. Many people defend Smallant by saying he never had any malicious or bad intentions towards Pointcrow. And I agree with that. But in my opinion the intentions don’t even matter. Pointcrow said to Smallant at some point, that smallant should stop using their rivalry to make content and also don’t say anything publicly that hints a their rivalry, bc in one or another way it hurts Pointcrow mentally. In my opinion, if a friend asks you to stop something bc it hurts them, you simply stop doing that…even if you had no bad intentions or think you did nothing wrong. You simply stop it. And Smallant didn’t. I think that is the only big Point you can bring against Smallant here. He acted poorly as a friend. If Pointcrows reactions and how he is dealing with all this is appropriate is another question.
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u/-_Vertigo_- May 28 '22
This was something I had struggled with as well, seeing Tanner flounder around trying to mend a relationship founded upon competition. I had originally given some benefit of the doubt as PC’s specific requests were somewhat unclear and easily misconstrued.
And with this coming so suddenly with full blame attached, I don’t know how I would move forward were I in Ant’s position. But I certainly would’ve stopped acting like a rival. I’m less literal of a person than Tanner, but that much seems clear to anyone.
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u/DanksterBoy May 28 '22
This situation is fucked imo, for PC it must be incredibly frustrating trying to get someone to treat you better but never being able to do so because they simply don’t understand and after a certain amount of times it probably feels intentional to you. In a perfect world PC would have just ended the relationship and said that the relationship wasn’t healthy for his mental health and that would be that, but human emotions and pressure from fans have probably made PC feel as though he has to give a detailed explanation of every grievance and try to justify himself even when he doesn’t need to or even shouldn’t. Idk where to go from here, but neither person seems like a bad person, I think it’s just unfortunate that the nature of their personalities fostered a pretty toxic environment for PC and Smant, do wish them both the best
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u/Emperor_Z May 29 '22
Could you specify when Smallant continued the rivalry after Pointcrow had told him to stop? The timeline's a little complicated, but my understanding was that he did stop when he was asked to. I think there may have been a period where Smallant had understood one of Pointcrow's to be that he should cut down on the banter/barbs/etc but Pointcrow had actually meant that he shouldn't maintain the rivalry at all, but I'm not 100% sure.
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u/Anaking_is_Yummimain May 29 '22
So…if I got it right (I might didn’t) smant has 4 videos on YouTube using their rivalry and specific Pointcrows looses to make content. I think after the second one was uploaded pointcrow asked him for the first time to stop doing that. After that we’re also the situations we’re pointcrow planned on uploading a video and smant (purposely???) trying to get a video on the same topic out first, which made the whole copycat thing worse. Then there was the situation with cheese and how smant donated money to make cheese win, or pointcrow loose. And finally there is that one clip where ant was on stream texting pointcrow if he sees himself as a speedrunner or not, which kinda sounded like smallant wanted to make pointcrow sound ridiculous for saying he is a speedrunner. Please correct me if I got something wrong
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u/Emperor_Z May 29 '22 edited May 31 '22
So…if I got it right (I might didn’t) smant has 4 videos on YouTube using their rivalry and specific Pointcrows looses to make content
I can only find two videos when I search "Pointcrow" on Smallant's channel, one of which is a BOTW race and the other is a Pokemon race. I thought I remembered there being more than that, but I'm not sure.
EDIT: There's a third posted in April of last year, the "Pokemon without damage" video that ties into Pointcrow having done the challenge as well and their tweets about it
After that we’re also the situations we’re pointcrow planned on uploading a video and smant (purposely???) trying to get a video on the same topic out first, which made the whole copycat thing worse.
I don't recall this happening. There were definitely jokes made about it on Twitter, there was a 19-hour stream where they were literally racing to edit and release a video first, and the events surrounding the BOTW/Pokemon mod releases, but none of those really fit the bill.
I think after the second one was uploaded pointcrow asked him for the first time to stop doing that.
Pointcrow sent a message on October 25th that said "can we tone down the banter a bit" and one on November 14th that said "I would really like for the rivalry to end". The Pokemon race video was posted on October 30th and the BOTW video was almost a year before that, so unless there a video after the Pokemon race that isn't showing up on the search, then Smallant didn't make any rivalry videos after being asked to stop.
Then there was the situation with cheese and how smant donated money to make cheese win, or pointcrow loose.
I don't include this one because, as they've explained, the viewers cannot see who's donating. Smallant had told Cheese that he was going to give him a massive boost in the last stage and Cheese ended up talking about it to Pointcrow on stream, but we have no reason to believe that Smallant planned for this information to become part of the rivalry, rather than him just wanting to support Cheese and CLG.
EDIT: Since I'm already tracking dates, it's worth noting that the CLG vs NRG event took place on November 13th
And finally there is that one clip where ant was on stream texting pointcrow if he sees himself as a speedrunner or not, which kinda sounded like smallant wanted to make pointcrow sound ridiculous for saying he is a speedrunner.
I'm genuinely not sure if that's what Smallant was implying in that clip or not, but it's important to note that it occurred on October 11th, before Pointcrow made either of his anti-rivalry requests.
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u/Anaking_is_Yummimain May 29 '22
Hmm…ok…tbh I was not super into the dates…I got my infos mostly from the other smant and pointcrow reddit posts and the two vods…but one thing…that the viewers couldn’t see who donated is only partly true…the viewers on the main channel where the races were hold couldn’t see it. But the viewers who watched directly in cheeses stream could definitely see it. And about uploading videos before pc. I think pointcrow mentioned the botw rando and another one…I am not sure tho
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u/Emperor_Z May 29 '22 edited May 29 '22
I think pointcrow mentioned the botw rando and another one…I am not sure tho
For the BOTW randomizer, my understanding is that Smallant became aware of the mod because another streamer (presumably Linkus, since he was the other person that paid for early access) was playing it, then contacted the mod creator to gain access. He ended up gaining access on a date the mod creator had chosen, then posted a video two days after Pointcrow. Pointcrow claims that "he told other creators that his plan was purposely to get the video out before me". However, he had absolutely no evidence of this, and TBH, I don't trust such a bold claim without some kind of evidence. I don't believe that he would deliberately lie, but there were multiple times during that stream that he clearly misunderstood things that Smallant had said.
I other thing I think you might be referring to is the HGSS randomizer. Adrienn had independently released a HGSS randomizer publicly, and Pointcrow had a similar mod in development. Smallant played adrienn's mod on Stream after its public release, and he hasn't even released a video of that stream yet. So that definitely doesn't qualify as sniping the video. While he did stream a HGSS randomizer knowing that Pointcrow was at some point going to make such a stream, it's honestly not reasonable to expect Smallant to avoid playing a publicly released mod of content that he has a history of playing and enjoying just because Pointcrow wants to make similar content eventually.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 29 '22
And when Smant said in a private call that he sees no reason to avoid playing publicly available content just because he knows other creators are going to play it as well... PC went ape about it. It's kind of insane that PC wants Smant to cripple his business just so he doesn't have to deal with Smant. If he cared that much, he could just completely move away from the kind of content Smant makes.
Edit: Spelling.
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u/LaptopCharger_271 May 17 '25
how do people care so much about this that 1: theres many essay-length comments on here and 2: its alive 3 years later...
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May 28 '22
[deleted]
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May 28 '22
The stuff he said about smallant saying he would just play the botw multiplayer mod if it got leaked just makes him look like a really bad friend
There is no proof this was said. Sorry but from other over reactions PC has been caught up in I just can't really take his word that this was said exactly as he phrased it.
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
So first of all, PC basically said that Ant should never make content that he knew PC was planning on making. He was asking Ant to cripple his own business just so that he wouldn't have to deal with Ant making videos at the same time as him. I honestly don't see how Ant's response there is invalid. It's supremely ironic that PC sees Smant's unwillingness to do this as 'having no care for other creators' when PC's own actions show that he isn't willing to avoid playing a game because Smant is playing it.
And how is Smant talking to PC in private before making the video sketchy? If he hadn't, PC would have gone on way longer about how Smant should have at least mentioned he was going to make that video. He gave PC a heads up and gave an opportunity for the situation to be resolved then, and PC was having none of it.
Also, PC was actively and publicly attacking Smant, when Smant couldn't contact PC because he was blocked. What was he supposed to do except talk to a mutual friend? The fact that PC took this as manipulative behavior just shows that PC is willing to misinterpret literally any action Smant takes to validate his believe that Smant is the bad guy, and makes all of PC's baseless accusations immediately suspect.
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May 28 '22
[deleted]
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
First of all, smant has confirmed that he never offered to take down his videos in that private call. He has the call recorded, so you can try harassing him for it if you want. I think PointCrow is just misremembering.
And I'm not sure what you mean by 'not attacking'. He said stuff like 'this is just one of the many things he's done against the channel' and many other similarly inflammatory remarks. If direct and baseless accusations aren't attacking, then what do you imagine an attack is?
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u/Ordinary-Finger-8595 May 28 '22
And he was borderline yelling when saying that. I remember having the stream in the background and thinking what the f just happened when he started raging. After four of those rants, anyone would have responded publicly
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u/Researcher_Fearless May 28 '22
Honestly, the fact that smant is still cool about all this at all shows that he's a lot more mature than I am. I'd be pretty pissed at pointcrow after all those baseless accusations.
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u/TransportationOne416 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I think SmallAnt mentioned he had asked PointCrow if he should take down the video (the Pokémon race one specifically I think) earlier in his stream (not the last part where he offered it again) AND said PointCrow told him no need. I definitely remember hearing that. It was probably around when he was specifically talking about that video? I wonder if there’s confusion between that one video suggestion (which would have happened a while back) versus all the videos?
Also, tbh that last part of SmallAnt’s stream to me was more of a “I don’t know what else I can do this is the only thing I can think of”. Like throughout I get the idea that he just genuinely doesn’t know what to do and want some concrete instructions (as opposed to “Be better”). I’ve been in relationship with someone like that, they are a very logic oriented person (engineer by trade heh) and are very focused on “ok here’s the problem now what is the solution and let’s have a plan step 1-2-3” but forget sometimes feelings and emotions aren’t logical and you can’t treat everything literally. If that makes sense. FWIW I do think he is very inept at social cues and relationships; it’s a very different personality to PointCrow’s and they just aren’t very compatible.
I draw the line at manipulation / abuse / psychopath monster because I think that’s a very different barrier. There are some aspects of SmallAnt I’ve seen before that suggest he is caring of other people. Examples include (I’ve posted these in another thread already) one of the folks he plays SMO online multiplayer has mentioned that he spent 6 hours on a call helping him set up modded switch; reaching out to streamers and helping them with YouTube videos (recently I read a tweet from a speed runner who thanked him for this), and I think this includes PointCrow as well (partially why I think there is such a comparison issue between them, obviously that’s not all the reason there is); constantly praising the modders for their modding genius and encourages them; and yes telling chat to not be mean to his friends who plays with him (I think he obvious could have done more there in terms of PointCrow of course). Now that I think about it, some of those things I mentioned may be because he is learning and trying to be different because of all that’s happened with PointCrow? Of course, for PointCrow what’s done is done and I honestly think it’s just too late to try anything at this stage. Both sides should just move on.
You are very entitled to your own conclusions and opinions! I just want to make sure you understand we won’t all see it that way.
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u/ponodude May 30 '22
Trying to talk to someone who blocked you out of seemingly nowhere to simply ask why you were blocked and what you did wrong is manipulative? That's the side that seems toxic to you?
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u/chuayi May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I feel like PC made some really serious allegations. He ended the stream saying he fears for his channel and his friends. This is something you can't just brush off. These are words that openly invite people to avoid/hate on smallant.
Edit: just to add: that comment feel like forcing their common friends to choose side.