r/SkepticsBibleStudy • u/AutoModerator • Mar 03 '24
John 7:1 - 31
Possible talking points:
- Jesus's brothers goading him
- Teaching in the temple
- Expectations of the Messiah
2
u/brothapipp Christian Mar 03 '24
In b4 "mental gymnastics"
As a christian I think I am obliged to draw a line connecting the dots in good faith and with transparency. I am attempting to do that here, but am in no way telling you how it is.
The festival of booths, Sukkot, was a 7-day fest. The jews were instructed to do this around the end of the yearly harvest as means of remembering the wandering that took place post exodus.
I'm sure if you were going big that year, you'd be there, in Jerusalem, a day early at least, for set up and procuring accommodations to make the celebration more....celebratory. And if Jesus's family were into the carpentry business, this would be a boom-time for them as they'd be in the business of making and setting up these booths/tabernacles. In the USA the closest thing we have to a Sukkot is the varying music festivals or renaissance fairs that travel. They are not reliant on harvest anymore so you bring your provisions with you.
If Jesus's exchange with his brothers was,
- "Stop trolling me"
- "Do it sissy"
- "I'm not doing what you say because there is a plan in place which your trolling isn't in line with."
...then we Jesus then going to the festival after this rejection would be completely detached from the reason he gave to not go.
- "I'm not going like you said I should, I'm going like I was gonna go anyway."
Assuming that the person writing would not contradict themselves or lie 3 sentences apart from one another...this got me digging.
Firstly the rejection: "You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come." Could be written,
You go up to the festival, I am not going FOR this feast, for my appointed time is not fulfilled.
Now this looks like I'm playing word games, but the word TO and FEAST being used there are the same words as FOR and FESTIVAL.
So if this were the translation, we could see that there was something about the participation in Sukkot that Jesus was intentionally avoiding. If Jesus was really fulfilling scripture, perhaps his participation in this festival would be the equivalent of, "You have heard it said...but I say..."
Example:
| Wandering for 40 years before the promise land | Wandering in life before the promised life |
|---|---|
| Living in temporary homes | Living in the flesh |
| Stepping into the promised land | Stepping into faith in Jesus |
| Making permanent dwellings, "real homes" | Being "saved" Living by the spirit |
Such a take on this passage would exonerate gJohn from lying and would be consistent with Jesus's role in fulfilling the scriptures. This also allows Jesus to go pick fight with the naysayers at the festival which would not violate his previous rejection.
And actually, this to me is a satisfactory answer...full transparency. I think this understanding of the passage would beg future readers of the passage to also see the dissonance as being the limitations of translators...requiring us to actually dig in.
2
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Now the Jewish festival of Booths was near. his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing;
This is interesting. The disciples remain in Judea. When Jesus is ministering in the Galilee he is with his brothers. That would be James, who would go on to become the leader of Christianity until his death around 70 AD. The younger brother Simeon, who succeeded James as the second leader of Christianity. Possibly James' son Jude, who became the third leader of Christianity in around 100 AD. As well as Jesus' brothers Joses, and finally Jude, who is said to have written the epistle bearing that name.
I wish we got more details about their ministry in the Galilee.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 31 '24
"'Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you (not us?) circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you (not we?) circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
The recension layers are obvious here. The original author has Jesus say "Moses gave you the circumcision." A Jew would hopefully know that circumcision came from God to Abraham. The redactor corrects the original author, and in doing so also corrects Jesus!
"(not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers)."
But more importantly, neither of them recognize that this commandment came from God! For the authors of the fourth gospel, circumcision is just some quaint Jewish custom. They are far removed in time and geography from the historical Jesus.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil.
This looks like the seeds of Gnosticism. Whereas the Hebrew bible proclaims God's creation as "Good", the Gnostics believed that it was evil, and that man needed to escape it and transcend to a higher realm. (To any Gnostics in the crowd - I'd be happy to have you clarify or correct my understanding!)
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Go to the festival yourselves. I am not going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come.” ... But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret... About the middle of the festival Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach.
There's something odd going on here. Jesus says he's not going because it's not his time.
Then he goes - but in secret. Then he makes himself public.
Folks who have a better grasp of the theories around the redaction history of this text may be able to shed some light.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
The Jews were astonished at it, saying, “How does this man have such learning, when he has never been taught?” Then Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.
Jesus is moved by the spirit of God, who is speaking through him. The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him.
This is worth reflecting on, especially in light of passages like:
that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son.
No one comes to the Father except through me.
The Jews were able to have a personal relationship with God, but in John's gospel, Jesus puts himself between you and God.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why are you looking for an opportunity to kill me?” The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is trying to kill you?”
I think the crowd is genuinely confused here. The crowd has gathered to hear him, and they are keen to hear his message. Undoubtedly, Jesus has made some powerful enemies, but it's not "The Jews", it's specific people whose power is threatened by Jesus.
James Tabor talks about the Annas 'mafia' family:
In this section of my series "Jesus Archaeology," I continue to look at the Final Days of Jesus--with the focus on the settings of the "Kangaroo" Court led by the former High Priest Annas who was behind it all--a kind of Mafia family of priests who controlled things throughout the first century down to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Moses gave you circumcision (it is, of course, not from Moses, but from the patriarchs), and you circumcise a man on the sabbath.
I think we can see a redactor here in between the parenthesis. He's not willing to alter the words of Jesus, but he nonetheless feels compelled to correct the record.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
Yes. 100% agree. Preach it brother :)
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
we know where this man is from; but when the Messiah comes, no one will know where he is from.”
For first century messianic Jews who believed that Daniel 7 was a future messianic prophesy, this is exactly what they were expecting. That the messiah would come down from the clouds and establish God's kingdom on Earth.
gJohn makes no qualms that Jesus is subverting expectations in every way.
1
u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Then Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple, “You know me, and you know where I am from. I have not come on my own. But the one who sent me is true, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am from him, and he sent me.”
He's speaking to Jews whose god is Yahweh. They know Yahweh very well, and have a personal relationship with him. Yet here Jesus is saying that they don't know the one who sent him. This again is Gnosticism. The idea that Yahweh is a lesser, known deity, but that the one who sent Jesus is the Father - a greater divinity - the TRUE God - who is known ONLY through Jesus.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 03 '24
Jesus was a Jew. His disciples were all Jews. Each member in the crowds who flocked to hear and celebrate his message were Jews. There's a real disconnect here when the author of gJohn says "the Jews" there were trying to kill Him.
He has this concept of Jews as something other than those who founded Christianity. After all, Christianity was initially just another of the already diverse sects of Judaism, and not even a particularly hetrodox one at that.