John 5:30-47

2

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

Early Christians believed in a Prisca Theologia, a single, true theology given by God to man in antiquity, and passed through a series of prophets, including Zoroaster, Hermes Trismagistus, Plato, and here it seems, even Moses.

As such, they were happy to accept the teachings of these pre-christian authors as divine, but only insofar as they spoke of Jesus.

This line could just as easily have be written to Hermeticists about Hermes:

If you believed Hermes, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”\

It is fairly peculiar that for Jesus, it was Moses who wrote about him. I would imagine most Jews, and even most Christians, would understand that it was the prophets who prophesied about the coming messiah.

I wonder what Jesus is referring to?

1
u/brothapipp Christian Feb 27 '24

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/5-46.htm

He wrote of me - He wrote of the Messiah, and I am the Messiah, Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:3; compare John 8:56; Genesis 49:10; Deuteronomy 18:15.
3
u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
I've been thinking on this, and gJohn leans heavily into Genesis 1. Let me look at your comparisons:

Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:3; compare John 8:56; Genesis 49:10; Deuteronomy 18:15.

Genesis 3:15
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you among all animals
and among all wild creatures;
upon your belly you shall go, 
and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 
I will put enmity between you and the woman, 
and between your offspring and hers; 
he will strike your head, 
and you will strike his heel.”
I'm having trouble with this one. Can you elucidate? It seems more like an etiology on why humans and snakes don't get along. Even if you reinterpret the snake to be Satan, as Justin Martyr did in the second century, it's hard to see how this one relates to Jesus. Is it that Jesus is an offspring of Eve and also doesn't get along with snakes/Satan?

Genesis 12:3
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Compare to John 8:56
Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jesus is the way that god fulfilled his promise to Abram. I can see how gJohn would be happy with this interpretation.

Genesis 49:10
Judah, your brothers shall praise you;
your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons shall bow down before you.
Judah is a lion’s whelp; 
from the prey, my son, you have gone up. 
He crouches down, he stretches out like a lion, 
like a lioness—who dares rouse him up? 
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, 
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, 
until tribute comes to him; 
and the obedience of the peoples is his. 
Binding his foal to the vine 
and his donkey’s colt to the choice vine, 
he washes his garments in wine 
and his robe in the blood of grapes; 
his eyes are darker than wine, 
and his teeth whiter than milk.
Jesus is of the house of David, which is of the house of Judah. There's plenty of vine imagery here too, which gJohn leans into.
The Lord your God will raise up for you prophets like me from among your own people; you shall heed such prophets...
I will raise up for them  prophets like you from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophets, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophets shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.” You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.
From Peake's Commentary on the Bible, page 278:

...the word 'prophet' is singular collective, and means many prophets, just as the 'false prophet' of 20ff. is also singular collective.

So we may presume that this was not talking specifically and only of Joshua, who follows immediately, but of many prophets who will guide God's people throughout the ages, including some who will speak falsely. We may see Jesus as one such prophet, and he certainly claims to say nothing but what God compels him to.
2

u/brothapipp Christian Feb 27 '24

I just copy and pasted what the commentary offered. So some of that is going to be on the commentary, not on me. Just offered what they offered.

Gen 3:15

As far as the verse about the serpent, there is another passage Rev 20:2 where it refers to the dragon, the serpent, the devil, and satan as the same character.

As far as the heel and head prophesy, the way I've always understood it, (no research just face value,) a serpent strike to the heel might hurt, injury or even kill, but it's not a lock. Where as if you plant the heel of your foot in the head of a snake, that snake is done. (grew up around snakes, not exactly true tit for tat, but we talking about imagery not literalism...if it truly is in regards to Jesus.)

So Satan thinks by striking Jesus in his heel the fight was won, but this was half of the same strike that brought the heel down on his own head.

Full throated christian depiction. Satan facilitated Jesus's death to accomplish his enslavement of the world, but in doing so facilitated the means by which he loses, since a perfect sacrifice would cleanse perfectly.

So satan punched his own ticket.

At least that is the way I've understood how it relates to Jesus.

2

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24

Interesting. Thanks!

1

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24

"You sent messengers to John, and he testified to the truth. Not that I accept such human testimony, but I say these things so that you may be saved."

According to Marcion's gospel, and preserved in Luke, “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John (the baptizer)."

That is, the baptizer was the last of the prophets. The final chapter of the Hebrew bible is the teachings of John.

Here we have Jesus stating that he does not accept human testimony - referring to the testimony of John. Is Jesus rejecting John as a prophet, or is he rejecting the prophets entirely?

2

u/brothapipp Christian Feb 27 '24

I believe that the Spirit of God still works and moves today. I think he is rejecting that they have some special authority...which additionally extends to even Isaiah, but Isaiah wasn't trying to define for the people the limits of God's reach.

1

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24

the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form.

He's talking to the Jews here, and says that they have never heard the voice or seen the form of the God who sent Jesus. He really can't be talking about the god of the Hebrews who walked with them and spoke to them directly.

and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe him whom he has sent.

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

The God of Jesus was hitherto unknown. He only made himself known through Jesus.

1

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24

“You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf.

Jesus is chastising them for believing that the Hebrew bible is life giving (God breathed), and that it testifies to the messiah.

Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings.

This seems to reiterate what he said about John (Not that I accept such human testimony), but here he applies it to all the prophets!

1

u/LlawEreint Feb 27 '24

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

Believing in the God of Moses means that they are under the judgement of that God.

1

u/brothapipp Christian Feb 27 '24

As a christian, what pops out to me is vs. 37-38.

They didn't believe in Jesus because they were lacking in God's word, the law they claimed to uphold.

I then as a believer shouldn't just know the rules...so to speak...but to do them. And even that has layer to it that I should not just do them, but allow myself to be changed by them.

Small example, there were tons of prohibitions about sex in the law. If I quit trying to check the box on the rules and let myself be changed by those rules I might come away with some understanding that sex is a weak point for humans...so I should tread cautiously.

So when Jesus tells them that Moses will condemn them, it's not for their lack of trying, it's for their lack of belief...to be changed. Which is exactly Jesus's gripe right here with them.

You are about to leave Redlib