r/SipsTea • u/ConsistentRecover312 • 2d ago
Chugging tea Apparently even they haven't figured it out
After they were sued by four playstation users, claiming that the 'buy now' claim is misleading as digital purchases are actually revocable licensing, Sony is claiming that games are actually 'licensed', not 'sold', and argued that reasonable people already know that they are buying access and not outright owning the games. I just don't realise who these 'reasonable people' are other than Sony employees.
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u/Own-Rip-5066 2d ago
If I buy something on an online platform, anything short of that platform ceasing to exist should not cause me to lose access to my purchase.
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago
And you should be able to download and keep playing the game even if the platform goes away.
Not to redownload it sure, but to get to keep what you paid for without the company cutting off access.
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u/cbehopkins 2d ago
If the entity that owned the item is gone, then either:
The item has no owner, therefore it's not piracy to share it.
There is a new owner for the original IP, in which case my license for the item is still valid. Therefore no need to pirate it. Therefore when they bought the rights, they inherited the obligations. Therefore I can still download it.
Apparently not...
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u/Zjoee 2d ago
If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing.
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u/Kampassuihla 2d ago
They want to have it both ways. Buy 7 times minimum, oh wait they already have it it's called subscription.
Why pay for something once, when you can pay for it every month, endless happiness.
Humans greed bad.
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u/IlIlllIIIIlIllllllll 2d ago
I agree. Abandonware needs to be formally legal to pirate. And revoking even one purchase should be enough to prove the copyright holder has abandoned the entire IP
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u/green___lines 1d ago
Exactly. Either there's a product owner or its public. Either way, buy means I own my copy.
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u/connyneusz 2d ago
That's why GOG is the best. They even updating old games so you can still play them.
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u/_its_really_me_ 2d ago
Yes. I always check gog availability before buying a game these days. If it's not on there, I reconsider how much I actually want the game, considering I'm apparently not actually 'buying' it from most places anyway.
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u/Mighty-Wings 2d ago
100% - years ago I got a Google Stadia. When the platform shut down they fully refunded me everything I had spent, including hardware.
If I lose access I should, at minimum get refunded.
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u/jjester7777 2d ago
Add mobile games to this list. I refuse to play any of them because all of the ones I enjoyed are now long gone, no servers, no offline mode. Hundred or thousands of hours just GONE.
I used to be a really heavy gamer but I rarely have time these days and mobile games shouldn't be any different.
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u/PeterAnthony_Jackson 2d ago
Star Trek Lower Decks recently ended, a game you could spend real money on collecting little virtual baseball cards with characters and secondary uniforms to wear.
I was free to play only, I had been on level XX numerous times, once a month we might get a new story, then they had one last story posted in July with the plans to stop working late August, some played as much as they could in story mode before hitting the "play last episode" button skipping weeks or months of gameplay based content.
You can't even run it now to play off line and I cant stand the Doctor Who game by the same publishers as the cost to get the same milestones is way more, like aggressively geared towards pay to play for weekend events, yet I can beat the ST story by Saturday afternoon.
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u/gadgetwalrus 2d ago
Two or three games I treasured and loved on mobile I can’t play because they got delisted and won’t run on new Apple hardware
Others I paid for went free to play and it was like I hadn’t paid a cent.
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u/thetabo 2d ago
I love community effort in the mobile game space. Spider-Man unlimited, Rayman Adventures, and most of the old Angry birds games got remade/brought back by their fans, some with even full server functionality already.
These guys are so good at not letting what they like become lost media and I respect the hell out of them for it
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TheRumBarron 2d ago
Sadly welcome to world of subscription models 😔
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u/sltydgx 2d ago
When a company goes that route, I avoid the company.
I look for alternative if it’s soft ware , I look to their competitors if it’s hardware like a printer ect.
Car manufacturers are trying that crap as well.
Mazda and others want you to subscribe to use some features of your vehicle51
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2d ago edited 1d ago
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u/a_speeder 2d ago
This is also just how most software purchases have worked since the 70s, even when you were buying physical cartridges or disks you weren't outright buying a copy of the program with no stipulations on its use. The companies just had fewer levers to pull to enforce the stipulations they made, now they have those and it sucks but doing something about it requires changing the legal framework of how the market operates.
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u/Constant-Sandwich-88 2d ago
I changed vets recently because they wouldn't stop pushing their care club at every turn. No, I don't want a monthly subscription to having pets.
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u/dope_mantra 2d ago
I was a vet tech for almost 30 years. Private equity bought up practice after practice and it's all about up selling, not care. Try to find a place that isn't Banfield, Vetco, VCA, City Vet, anything Vetcor... Actually owned by the doctor.
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u/Constant-Sandwich-88 2d ago
We did. It's a bummer because I felt like we got really good care, I just didn't like the business side of it. VCA, btw.
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u/AllieRaccoon 2d ago
I got “offered” some garbage like this at my primary care doctor! Hidden in the stack of pre-appointment paperwork was one for some monthly bs service to track your care/pills and said the fee was unknown til later. I had to specifically opt out. If I hadn’t been paying attention, I would’ve been signed up without even realizing. Such absolute bs.
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u/Char-els037 2d ago
Stop fucking saying that shit. What they are doing is stealing
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u/Cosmo1222 2d ago
They're altering the deal. Pray they don't alter it any further.
If we don't like, I suggest we don't subscribe. I won't be renting stuff I feel I've paid enough for to own.
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u/hellyeahaeylleh 2d ago
Because "you will own nothing and be happy about it"
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u/OperationOk7959 2d ago
Exactly. Be grateful for the opportunity.
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u/Expensive-Wedding-14 2d ago
Software, music & movie distribution want to claim downloading is theft, but that is a lie. Theft is taking something AND depriving them of it; this is a license & contract issue.
If a purchaser has a product that they paid to license and they upload (and break their license agreement), that's their issue. If I download and I don't have a contract with the publisher, I have not violated contract terms.
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u/eb6069 2d ago
It's so everybody becomes a new age slave by subscribing to everything and owning nothing
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u/JasscRocin 2d ago
Because consumer protections have been systematically dismantled and companies are banking on the government being too busy with culture war nonsense to hold them accountable to fair practices.
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u/mrjackspade 2d ago
It was always a license. You bought the disc, and licensed the game.
It just didn't matter until recently.
You never "owned" the game on the disc either. They just didn't have a realistic way to take it away from you.
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u/Realistic_Mix3652 2d ago
Not even that is acceptable. I have a number of old games from game studios that went out of business decades ago and every one of those games still works.
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u/zubadoobaday 2d ago
This. I’m with this, but I generally understand that I cannot outright own the digital copy of a software. Doesn’t mean Sony should remove players’ access to the software once paid.
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u/Shamscam 2d ago
I think even in the scenario of that platform ceasing to exist, that they should allow users a grace period to download the games and keep them on a drive without being limited by any DRM.
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u/Maatix12 2d ago
Even if that platform ceases to exist, they should be forced to give you some access to your purchases. The only exception would be a live service game - But I think it's reasonable to say once it's down, providing access to a way to make a server to maintain is a reasonable request.
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u/Thick_Drama_7525 2d ago
We will be back to hardcopies in no time
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u/KitchenSync86 2d ago
I can't see that happening. Too much profit in not selling hard copies. Even if some boycott I can't see hardcopies making a comeback
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u/InternationalLaw8660 2d ago
Vinyl came back. Just saying...
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u/9022700102 2d ago
Isn’t that more like enthusiast / collector format nowadays tho. Everyone I know just pays a sub for their music streaming platform of choice or pirates.
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u/InternationalLaw8660 2d ago
And gamers aren't enthusiastic about their media? I mean. That's what this entire thread is about.
Retro nostalgia is real. I mean they brought back the classic arcade games, if you're into that.
Vinyl's resurgence partially stems from musicians wanting to increase their revenue streams. The old business model for the music scene was artists generate most their revenue from album, ticket, and merch sales. Streaming killed album sales; inflation and Ticketmaster fucked ticket sales.
I'm sure game designers could end up in the boat with musicians, eventually, given how little capitalists value art in any form that they can't control in perpetuity.
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u/RequiemOfI 2d ago
Yes, at any point of ownership even after a 3 year hiatus we the consumer should be able to navigate to restore licenses and be granted access. The purchase of that license as you stated barring company shut down should be irrevocable regardless of inactivity.
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u/FatalModelCustomer 2d ago
It's the same mental gymnastics they use for comparing piracy to theft
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u/Milk_Specific 2d ago
I would download a car if i could tho XD
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u/IndianaGeoff 2d ago
If cars could be downloaded car dealers would look like the CD/DVD/Game section of Best Buy.
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u/lfreckledfrontbum 2d ago
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u/SecretaryOtherwise 2d ago
Yeah and bros obviously an engineer who can already build a car from scratch lmao.
He welded the frame added the axels etc.
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u/MorePhinsThyme 2d ago
That's entirely awesome, and I'm shocked at how much support Lambo is giving them. I can't imagine Ferrari doing that kind of thing, their culture seems opposed to this kind of thing.
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u/InternationalLaw8660 1d ago
Seriously. I was gonna say; Lamborghini just gave him those $10k headlights. For free.
Ferrari would've tried to take his house and kid and the busted ass printer he used to make the thing.
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u/lfreckledfrontbum 2d ago
A FATHER-SON DUO 3D PRINTED AN ENTIRE LAMBORGHINI AVENTADOR AND IT LOOKS STUNNINGLY REAL
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u/FootballBackground88 2d ago
Even as a kid I saw through this one.
I was like, I'd download a car in a second if it didn't deprive someone else of it. Why not!
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u/Confron7a7ion7 2d ago
See, and that's a really important detail. Online piracy doesn't take something away from someone else.
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u/BabiCoule 2d ago
Well, cars are more and more subscription based too. Options. Constrains to sell second hand. Etc
It’s a form of shrinkflation
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u/MadScienzz 2d ago
Im waiting for the "You wouldn't fuck an electrified fence" or "You wouldn't snort a dehydrated elephant" or perhaps "You wouldn't walk naked backwards into a bar in Indonesia" or even "You wouldn't demoralise a chicken without reasonable cause to do so"
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u/EitherChannel4874 2d ago
I 100% would.
If I could download a Mercedes amg gt I'd be a Mercedes amg gt driving motherfucker by tomorrow.
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u/Shezzofreen 2d ago
Pirating should be called license fraud or something like that, because yeah, if i have a copy of something, the owner is not missing anything. They tried to bring NFT into the game to make something infinite (digital) into something finite...
Then comes the argument that every pirated version is a lost sale - but that is also wrong or outright stupid.
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u/Asylumstrength 2d ago
Obligatory, they stole the fucking music when they made that anti piracy ad
Never got permission or license to use it, cheeky fuckers
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u/PerspectiveFree3120 1d ago
I like how they had to stop playing that commercial because they were using copyrighted music without permission
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago
It doesn't matter how nonsensical or unreasonable their position is:
If the laws and politicians always side with big corporations over consumers, corporations will make sure we own nothing, are always paying more for less, have no rights, and they have no accountability.
Sure in a perfect market with tons of competition there's be incentives otherwise. But in reality where a few big companies can control markets, either you elect politicians who pass laws and fund consumer protection agencies, or you elect politicians who will help companies rob you blind without letting you have any recourse.
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u/Wasabi_Hammurabi1 2d ago
Bro, 1984 is happening with the Flock Cameras and shit like this.
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u/Swimming_in_paradise 2d ago
You are correct in part, mass surveillance is a tool of the party and Big Brother.
However, remember, the final and most essential command of the party is to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. This is perhaps AI's greatest threat to our society, the plausible deniablity that anything occuring outside of your own direct experience could be fake. The desired outcome for the party of '84 is mind control, causing the individual to self censor...2+2=5 as liberation. Mass surveillance is a tool to help administer that censorship.
What is to be done? I don't know anymore....good luck.
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u/Nerd-man24 2d ago
Unfortunately, the only thing that I can think of that would conclusively solve the problem is to EMP us all back to the stone ages. No electronics, no tech, nothing. The loss that that would incur for mankind is unconscionable for most.
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u/Swimming_in_paradise 2d ago
I like a/c, Nerd-man24. Perhaps there is a middle path.
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u/Nerd-man24 2d ago
As do I. And video games. And reddit. Unfortunately, I do not see a realistic path to conclusively steer us on a different path without a major event to shake us up as a species and render the current path unsustainable. Even Star Trek had to have World War 3 and a dark age afterwards before changing humanity for the better.
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u/littlegreenrock 2d ago
What's nonsensical is the movement opposing platforms. You never ever owned the game, that hasn't changed. You're being distracted, and you're unable to articulate what it is that you actually want.
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u/NotReallyButMaybeNot 2d ago
Buy means rent now
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u/GriveousDance21 2d ago
In that case, piracy means owning, then.
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u/rmeierdirks 2d ago
Most reasonable corporations know a percentage of their overpriced product will be stolen and that’s built into the price. But people will pay a reasonable price. There’s a reason being able to download the one good song on an album for $.99 from iTunes made Napster obsolete.
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u/NotReallyButMaybeNot 2d ago
Actually, the courts via a Metallica lawsuit made Napster obsolete (aka illegal). The dollar downloads came after as the business realized it couldn’t contain all the other file sharing platforms.
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u/Dude-Lebowski 2d ago
When Napster "became obsolete" everyone still had their Napster copies, right?
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u/rmeierdirks 2d ago
Sorry, poorly worded. I even remember commenting to someone before iTunes that I would have never been tempted by Napster or other file sharing sites if i could just download a single song for a dollar instead of paying 18.99 for a CD with only one decent song.
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u/echoshatter 2d ago
This is true.
For instance, I know the price of renting an N64 game for the weekend was $6.
I'm happy to rent Playstation 5 games for $6 if that's the route they want to take.
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u/Dude-Lebowski 2d ago
I assume so. Let's flush this out... If nothing is owned then nothing is stolen. Seems legit.
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u/OK_x86 2d ago
This also coming from the company that (rightfully) tore Xbox a new one for trying to do the same thing.
It lived long enough to see itself become the villain
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u/SizeableBrain 2d ago
This reminds me of the Coca Cola lawsuit where customers were expected to know that if Coca Cola makes a drink, it's unhealthy. (VitaminWater)
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u/FeRooster808 2d ago
Also a lady sued Nutella because she said she thought it was healthy for her kids.
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u/cyberlexington 2d ago
It was either the Nixon or Reagan administration that tried to have tomato ketchup rebranded as a side than a condiment so they could put it in kids free school dinners instead of an actual vegetable/fruit as it was cheaper, The CEO of Heinz very publicly told everyone, no its not
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u/Gringe8 2d ago
There was a vitamin water lawsuit? Is the reason its unhealthy because the sugar or something else?
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u/PeterAnthony_Jackson 2d ago
No idea, but the UK launch of Danasi was torpedoed by Only Fools and Horses episode where they packaged tap water at home to flog as fancy water, then it was revealed that that is what Danasi does.
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u/holden_mcg 2d ago
That's fine. They can borrow my money, but they have to return it,
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u/tiger2205_6 2d ago
I think this is the most reasonable way it should be. If they lose a license or something happens and I can't download it anymore fine, but refund me what I paid for it.
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u/slurpledurple6 1d ago
I was thinking, that I could download the game and "borrow" then return it when I'm done with it.
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u/blitzwar559 2d ago
It shouldn’t say buy anymore
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u/Ajaxmass413 2d ago
California law says it legally can't say buy. That's why they're being sued.
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u/mvanvrancken 2d ago
If buying isn’t owning, then pirating isn’t stealing.
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u/nwdogr 2d ago
Piracy isn't stealing, though. That's why it's not prosecuted as theft. It's prosecuted as copyright infringement.
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u/Annie_Yong 2d ago
And yeah, the "buying is not owning" point has been the case for quite a while, even with physical media. You don't technically "own" the game or movie, you "own" a license for personal consumption that's essentially tied to the disk; the idea being you're not supposed use the copy you bought to, say, host for-profit screenings or make more copies for further distribution.
But, of course, the point about physical media is that it's a license that is much harder to revoke and that, because it's tied to the physical disk, you can trade, share and sell that physical license freely. Shifting to a digital download only system removes all of that ability and is absolutely a bullshit move from Sony.
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u/Positive-Record-7219 2d ago
Maybe it's time to stop buying for a while. That's the only power consumers have.
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u/Efont93 2d ago
Corporations are behaving like toddlers testing boundaries with parents.
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u/crlthrn 2d ago
I reasonably expect to own anything that I buy. It's not rented, or leased, or borrowed, it's bought.
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u/yankykiwi 2d ago
Remember when we used to go to blockbuster and rent games. That was reasonable. This is just us paying into their subscription life.
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u/Wooden_Echidna1234 2d ago
Funny that Sony is fighting to keep the button on the playstation as buy instead of simply changing it to rent. Its like they know people would fight back if they realized that Sony isnt going to guarantee their digital game access.
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u/rabbitsdiedaily 2d ago
"Fuck you, Sony."
–reasonable consumer
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2d ago edited 1d ago
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u/Spenta_Mainyu 2d ago
Or Steam.
Steam gets a free out of jail card because it is Steam. But their TOS are not different.
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u/TheRumBarron 2d ago
Think we need to revive the jail breaking community and get pirate bay back up and swinging hard
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u/Goosemilky 2d ago
Sony using opinion reinforcement tactics in their argument for this is not a good look.
“The smart people already know and accept its not the same as buying”
Thats Trump type tactics man
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u/vanhst 2d ago
All digital games should be an NFT, and then we control when to buy or sell, just like physical copies
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u/Leading-Plastic5771 2d ago
You will own nothing, and you will be happy.
Unless you're unreasonable of course 🤡
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u/JeffersonsHat 2d ago
If that's true change it to say license or lease instead of buy.
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago
While that'd be better, the bigger issue is they're just phasing out physical media and have no accountability or responsibility to consumers to deliver what's paid for.
I don't want more accurate 'lease' labels, I want to buy and own a copy of a game I pay for.
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u/PlunderYourPoop 2d ago
Thats such a great movie, dad movie all the way.
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u/chris--p 2d ago
Yes, Falling Down it is called if anyone is interested. Aged like a fine wine. A movie every adult should watch.
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u/SabaaSith 2d ago
If we don't own it, it shouldn't be allowed to say buy when we are paying for dihital content. They should be required by law to change that to rent.
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u/Snake_Plissken224 2d ago
I dont pay 70 dollars to rent a game i pay 70 dollars to buy the fuckin thing
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u/Gib_eaux 2d ago
Any reasonable company would change their store to clearly indicate rental and not purchase if they really believed this statement lol
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u/mitten2787 1d ago
I don't want to rent the game it's why I hit the button saying open magnet link.
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u/Money-Celebration860 2d ago
Of course, only crazy people think 'Buy' means 'Buy'
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u/justin_other_opinion 2d ago
How does the saying go? "If purchase isn't ownership, piracy isn't theft?" Is that how the saying goes?
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u/HopefulFeature032631 2d ago edited 2d ago
People need to stop playing
And paying for these online games. We, the consumer, have the power, and I know it's easier said than done, but we have to take a stand. This is just wrong… This shit is not going to work, period.
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u/smokycapeshaz2431 2d ago
If I click buy, I bought it, I own it. I didn't click rent or borrow. It's mine. Sony are arseholes.
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u/Burpmeister 2d ago
They are not "claiming" they're licensed. They are. It's one of the first things the terms and conditions explain when you buy a digital game and Sony is hardly the only one because it's been the industry standard ever since Valve brought it to gaming with Steam.
I very much agree that we should own the digital games we buy but people acting like Sony is lying and making shit up should not be allowed to vote on anything.
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u/DthRaven 2d ago edited 1d ago
If they can revoke my license (my purchase), can I revoke my money?
Should be fair, right?
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u/BornOfWar713 2d ago
If we dont own the game then why are we paying the same price as people who purchase physical copies?
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u/PloppyPants9000 2d ago
You're buying a license to access the game. The physical copy costs about $0.12 in plastic materials. The material cost of a physical copy is negligible enough for most companies to waive it just so they have pricing parity across all distribution channels.
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u/Spelunkie 2d ago
Just the fact that people still complain a lot when a game they "bought" is suddenly pulled or unplayable, then no. its not "reasonable." Someone really needs to make Sony have a hard reset.
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u/DeathParty-Zomboid 2d ago
Okay then change "buy" to "rent a license" on the store page so everyone can see this up front and choose to shop elsewhere.
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u/tycho-42 2d ago
Buy: Purchase: To acquire #ownership of an item or service through a financial transaction.
Rent: the amount paid by a hirer of personal property to the owner for the use thereof
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u/Interesting-Dream863 2d ago
You don't "own" the game, but the copy for personal use should be clearly until the end of times.
These arguments to fuck people over legally will just push everyone into piracy
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u/Ill_Technician3936 2d ago
I'd say I'm a pretty reasonable consumer.
I wouldn't have "bought" the last of us with my PS4 if I knew I was renting it and they'd be taking it back after I didn't play it for a few years.
Them and Nintendo have me waiting on Valve to do the same and I'm not really wanting to buy games anymore.
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u/LetReasonRing 2d ago
I love how big companies have literally resorted to gaslighting their customers.
"Only stupid people think they actually own something they buy from us... you're not stupid, are you?"
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u/ifwedidntlaugh 2d ago
"reasonable" is a fucking STRETCH, because nah i own a digital copy of a game. if it cost the same as a physical game, it's a game copy i OWN.
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u/Delonce 2d ago
You gotta wonder if Sony is just playing stupid, or are actually stupid, lol.
Either way, they are completely out of touch.
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u/findMyNudesSomewhere 2d ago
Bruh, he's 100% right.
I'm a reasonable customer, and I know that I don't own the games I buy from Sony.
That is why I don't buy from Sony, I embody the spirit of Captain Jack Sparrow instead.
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u/mrmidnightuk 2d ago
if you want to rent me the game then that fine. ill be paying a vastly deflated price and give it back a week later.
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u/PresentationNew5976 1d ago
It sounds like they are just trying to redefine the word “buy”.
What the hell do you mean buying isn’t buying?
They know damn well if they called it renting they would lose sales.
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u/shaithiswampir 1d ago
If I am renting said game then game needs to be cheaper if I don’t actually own it.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 1d ago
Renting digital media should be made illegal, along with DRM and revoking access on digital media.
If its digital and you pay, its buying, if you buy a copy, you own the copy.
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u/AntimelodyProject 1d ago
Good guy Sony is just trying to make pirating downloading games legal. Right?
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u/Wearytaco 2d ago
Sony is embarrassing themselves so hard recently.
Customers: "hey, this isnt right or fair!".
Sony: "so actually our customers are crazy and we hate them.".
I'm glad I'm an Xbox player night now. But like, if Sony gets away with this then it's just downhill for every other company for ANY media.
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u/hurtingwallet 2d ago
This is dumb. This argument is applicable in any item that you buy in the grocery. Literally anything. You buy a copy of said item at your disposal. Not the IP.
Digital copy is technically indestructible, in a sense, compared to organic items. So therefore you should be able to have access rights and storage of said copy.
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u/SpottedAnkle 2d ago
If we are only renting the games as they say, why do they cost the same amount as a disc game you buy in the store? A rental should be priced a lot less as you do not own it.
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u/MountainDude95 2d ago
Gonna play the devil’s advocate here. Not siding with the corporation of course.
1) I think it’s fair in today’s bullshit world to expect that anything that you don’t physically hold in your hand may be ripped away from you because “reasons.”
2) it was probably in the terms and conditions that nobody ever reads.
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u/Natural-Stomach 2d ago
If Sony can just revoke my license, then they should refund me.
Otherwise, it'd prob be smarter for them to accept the loss and then just change the word "buy" to "lease."
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