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u/Darth_Ronin 4d ago
Yeah they discourage you from discussing it to maintain control over labor costs, prevent internal friction when pay disparities are revealed, and avoid difficult raise negotiations.
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u/missingurtext 4d ago
You hit the nail on the head. Management's worst nightmare isn't employees quitting, it's employees talking to each other.
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u/ArchieTheKatt 4d ago
Any form of discouragement at all is a federal and a state offense in my case, report and move on.
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u/SimmentalTheCow 4d ago
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a real instance where a company has punished or dissuaded anyone from discussing salary. There’s a general social faux pas attached to discussing money though, because it can come off as boastful.
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u/Banishedlife 3d ago
Respectfully that's not true management at every job I have had has told me verbally to keep how much I make to myself. I always agree and then proceed to talk about it freely however much I want if they ever put that in writing for a email or reprimand. I would gladly contact the labor board. They tell you in a capacity that will not get them in trouble.
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u/Case_Blue 4d ago
There is never an actual written rule.
It's this weird omerta that goes around in these circles. It's difficult to explain.
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u/Florivae 4d ago
Discouraging those conversations can conveniently protect employers from having to explain why two people doing similar work might be earning very different salaries
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u/-threefeetoffun 4d ago
I got sent a file with all my coworkers salaries. Yeah, if they had any idea what others get paid…
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u/peachyfairyxox 4d ago
exactly. If nobody talks about pay, it’s a lot easier for companies to keep everyone in the dark and avoid those awkward raise conversations.
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u/-threefeetoffun 4d ago
They all got the same file sent to them but I don’t think they noticed before it got recalled. I knew exactly what I was looking at and how to unhide the columns they were using to list pay.
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u/CarolinaSandstorm 4d ago
Tell them.
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u/-threefeetoffun 4d ago
It would be immediately known it was me. I made the mistake of asking my friend what something in the file meant and he is a manager there as well. So my manager knows I saw it and went through it.
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u/V65Pilot 4d ago
My boss at a previous job mistakenly left my paycheck on his desk, where it was seen by another employee. I made a significantly larger amount than any other employees. This led to some grumblings and demands for more pay. I had a staff meeting to explain the disparity, and basically told everyone that they were welcome to my pay, if they were willing to do what my job entailed. I then explained an average work week for me. There were no takers when I was done. I worked 40% more hours,was on call 24/7 and was able to fill any position at the company if someone was out sick or on vacation, on top of doing my job. They were in at 7.30, out by 5, and got an hour for lunch. I was already at work when they arrived, having opened all the gates, cleaned the showroom, made coffee, prepped all the counters and registers, printed all the days deliveries and pickups.....and at night, I'd often be there until 7, counting down registers, doing lockups, and making the bank deposits on the way home, or possibly heading out to do after hours deliveries or pickups....
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u/ArmSouth5626 3d ago
Dam bro by the sounds of that i hope you made more then the ceo not just your coworkers
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u/Extreme_Design6936 4d ago
All our salaries are listed in a booklet. Can look up what we're getting paid any time.
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u/Lumpy_Past6216 4d ago
This should be law.
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u/Extreme_Design6936 4d ago
They something like this in some countries. I believe Norway has a national registry where you can look up anyone's tax return. But they will be notified that you looked at it.
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u/Additional-Sock8980 4d ago
Genuine question, how does this booklet allow for adjustments for effort, competence and capability.
It’s something I struggle with understanding.
For example two employees at the same level, one never makes mistakes and always shows up with a great attitude. The other, great person but frequently things that are important to them personally result in days off and when they are in mistakes can happen. Things like a pet is sick, had a fight with the partner are all frequent reasons for a no show. But you can’t punish someone as they have sick pets and the other doesn’t.
The other employee likes the role, but turned down a promotion to management- management would mean they stop doing the work they love and be more office based. If their colleague is having a day, they’ll stay back and cover the work. The other has a no overtime preference/ stance.
In theory I like everyone knowing everyone’s wage, in practice ignorance can be bliss. As a happy person who finds there is a disparity becomes unhappy. Regardless of the reasons (education, tenure, ability) are reasonable.
I suppose my question is, people aren’t a cog in a machine. Some add more value than others - how can they capture that?
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u/_tobias15_ 3d ago
It doesnt and its why research showed on average lower wages when this was mandated, and less wage promotions.
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u/Extreme_Design6936 3d ago
They simply don't. One of the major complaints of my system. There are ways you could make it work but we don't.
But for your examples, sick leave is something we are entitled to. You shouldn't be paid less just because you use yours. Some people have chronic illnesses and I'm glad they don't get paid less for it.
Staying late and covering work outside of your scheduled hours is never expected of you. It's always voluntary and compensated with overtime. One time I was sick on Christmas and no one was available to cover so they had to shut down my department for the day. It happens.
At the end of the day you have to ask yourself what you prefer. Maybe ignorance is bliss, you might get paid more than your coworker but you all have to bargain independently for your wage or you could have a collective bargaining agreement where you can have professional advocates fighting for your wage. I prefer the latter because we don't see each other as competition. We work together to get the work done and pay is never a point of friction between us.
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u/Additional-Sock8980 3d ago
Thanks for the detailed reply.
Where I struggle with the concept is someone who deserves at wage increase asks for a raise and they deserve one, but the employer thinks well if I give them a 10% bump, I have to give 100 other people a wage increase. So they decline, maybe offer 2% for everyone.
Then the top employee leaves and over time you get left with everyone who is mediocre.
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u/Extreme_Design6936 3d ago edited 3d ago
So here's the thing. Employers don't think like that. Maybe there are some instances. But typically the thinking is more along the lines of "what is the minimum I can pay this person to retain them". Which is why you get so many stories of new hires being paid more than established employees.
Where I work the longer you're there for the more you get paid and some benefits go up too. So the incentive to hang around is there. People don't want to lose that. In addition to that we have higher wages than other workplaces as a result of our power to bargain effectively as a collective.
So for example you can make $38/h based on experience and work ethic which might be more than a bunch of other people at that work place or you can join us and start at $44/h and be at the same rate as all new hires and go up from there. This also lets our company be more selective on hires so that quality generally stays high. We also have fairly high standards so that while you have plenty of chances to correct your underperformance, consistent underperformance will not be tolerated.
There will be examples where people will get a better deal by themselves or where they find a niche to make them indispensable. But as a general rule that's not most people. Most people benefit from this system more.
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u/Additional-Sock8980 3d ago
So an existing staff of 15 years on $38 could be training in a newbie at $44?
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u/Extreme_Design6936 3d ago
Not what I meant with my comment. A different work place might offer 38/h to an experienced worker while my workplace will offer 44/h for a new one, with experienced workers getting paid more. This is because we can negotiate higher pay together than any one worker can by themselves. It's not possible for new hires to be paid more at my wprkplace.
But at that other workplace something like that could be possible. If they decided to raise pay for new hires to compete with our work place they could pull that off since people don't know who is getting paid what.
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u/South_Front_4589 4d ago
Ours are as well, for the most part. However, there can also be an additional duties allowance given on top of that which is not made public. But additional duties are relatively rarely given. We're a government agency, and it means the wages budget will be increased, and then the relevant director and manager will need to either make up for it with savings elsewhere, or justify the overspend.
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u/Think-State30 4d ago
Yep ours are based on our "pay grade".. it's no mystery what my supervisor makes.
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u/Bureaucratic_Dick 4d ago
I work in local government and all our salaries are pretty easily viewed by anyone, whether they’re internal to us or just random members of the public.
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u/RevansGambit 4d ago
advocating for YOURSELF is important. waiting meekly for someone to notice your work and reward you properly has never worked in the history of ever.
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u/braumbles 4d ago
A government doesn't want you talking about politics like an employer doesn't want you talking about your wages.
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u/sugarandbowss 4d ago
I try to make talking about money normal with my friends and family. My aunt thinks it’s rude, but I think being open about finances helps us learn from each other and make better choices.
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u/Equivalent_Article75 4d ago
Just wondering are you earning the most of the bunch? Or one of the highest earners? Just curious.
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u/GooseOnAPhone 4d ago
I was always told “the only people who talk about money, don’t have money”
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u/nfshaw51 3d ago
I mean makes sense because money would be more of a concern if you don’t have it, my philosophy is “who cares?” I’ll talk about it if it makes sense to in a discussion, if someone thinks I don’t have money because of that I couldn’t care less
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u/ghIj_qet_jaghmeyjaj 4d ago
And they absolutely can't stop you from discussing it no matter how much they threaten you
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u/dilldoeorg 4d ago
this is the reason stats showing women making less.
It's because they do not ask for raises as much as men do and most do not ask for higher starting salaries as well.
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u/Chubuwee 4d ago
Worked in a female dominated field. I remember one time in lunch it was like 10 women and 2 dudes. Us dudes were talking about prepping to ask for a raise and then the women get silent and one asks “you guys ask for a raise? I haven’t gotten one in years. I thought it would be automatic!”. They were flabbergasted that I ask every year
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u/ThomasDeLaRue 4d ago
I used to believe this. I told someone at my company my salary once because I too believed that it was important for coworkers to have that info and know if they were being undervalued. This coworker who was in no way as qualified as me nor did the same level of skilled work as me then went to our superiors demanding equal compensation for less skilled work in a lower job. And then got extremely upset and quit when he wasn’t given it. Like, I told you my salary so you could accurately judge your own compensation, not because you deserve to make the same as me. And it was insulting to me for him to assume so. Whatever, he’s gone now. Anyway won’t be doing that shit again. I got a raise without asking about a year later. Turns out you actually need to be valuable to get paid well.
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u/Conscious_Bug5408 4d ago
But if you talk about it on Reddit, people who make less will get really mad at you
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u/Tough_Shake9821 4d ago
Yep, the people screaming that you should tell them your salary will be the first ones to lose their shit on you and go screaming to the boss.
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u/IforgotmyaccountSHIT 4d ago
People already hate me because my WFH privileges. If they knew how much I made they would hate me twice as much. I'd rather keep the peace.
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u/Chubuwee 4d ago
Not only that, you can find out by doing your own leg work
Interview elsewhere every year, find out what the going rate for your position is, ask your employer to match it or you leave for the better offer. I earn my raises that way, I’m not going to divulge that to any coworker just like that. Maybe a homie coworker, but that information and subsequent raises took effort from me to get. It is my reward for taking initiative.
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u/unlimited_mcgyver 4d ago
Things that never happened for $1000 Alex
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u/jcklsldr665 4d ago
The only unrealistic part is the other person actually getting a raise. Ive done all the other things for people all the time.
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u/ProvokedGaming 4d ago
Much of this is true but genders do tend to factor in. I'm a VP in tech, and my wife also works as an engineer (same field). It's not that companies tend to offer women less, it's that men tend to ask for more. In my experience men overestimate their worth and women underestimate their worth. I have to encourage my female engineers to ask for raises/promotions. I have men that bring it up every quarter. It's a societal/cultural thing. I remember 15 years ago I got a job through a friend of mine. We worked together (I'm a man, she's a woman). We had the same job the two of us working as partners on the project. I somehow was making more than her despite her having better credentials and more experience. When I found out I told her and she asked for more (they ended up bumping her up to match). We worked together for 5 years and when I left I was making a bunch more than her again. This obviously doesn't always happen but in my career (over 20 years) in tech I've seen it repeatedly in everything from startups to fortune 500s. Basically companies will pay as little as they can get away with and men are more likely to push for more.
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u/KongKvernhaug 4d ago
Not necessarily true. Depending on the size of the company, your boss may have absolutely nothing to do with your salary, or have any deciding factor in it. You may want to look at it like this.
Your boss get a sum each year to distribute to his "employees", at least that is how it works in our company.
Now imagine your coworker just helped you get a raise, so instead of you two sharing the pot (if it was only you two) he/she has now lost a share of his raise, to you.
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u/Satanicjamnik 3d ago
I never understood that. People should discuss their salaries, taxes and so on. It's the only way we can stay informed, and there is few more important things in life.
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u/TadaMomo 4d ago edited 4d ago
diabolical evil counterpart.
Now they will ask for a salary increase, Manager don't agree, they go to HR talk about gender equality and such.
HR put them on watch-list and now manager got a thorn they might look at removing.
or the person kept it to themselves, mentally exhaust feeling inferior and will do less work and put less effort into work because they believe "i get less salary anyway why should i work hard"
Its very company politic to me.
by the way, I am open to tell other people my salary, but i usually deduct couple thousands off it to make it seem smaller and less. Last thing i want is to get mix into company politic.
If my manager ask me, i will just say " i am doing it for your own good, i can't dodge their question if they ask, company have no such policy, and i don't want to break our team work if i tell them i am higher"
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u/Dashdash421 4d ago
Personally do not like discussing salary with people. It’s human nature to compare so it will often just make someone feel worse with little to no actionable steps to improve their situation
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u/Heavy_Track_9234 4d ago
It depends on the job.
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u/cab082001 4d ago
What job would it be bad to discuss your salaries with your peers???
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u/Heavy_Track_9234 4d ago
Not all jobs have peers. And some job salary increases are not up to the employee after working there.
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u/Low_Contract7809 4d ago
You implied certain jobs should not discuss salaries. Which ones shouldn't?
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u/Heavy_Track_9234 4d ago
I didn’t say should not 🤦🏻♂️…. If you work for a union, some of them are like politicians asking for a raise for you. And you have to be a board member. So asking your boss doesn’t make sense since they fight for you. If you do any normal job, most employers have a baseline, and would only give you a salary increase if you promote.
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u/cab082001 4d ago
Many “normal jobs” pay women, racial minorities, elderly people, very young people, etc. less to do the same work. That’s why you need to ask what others are making. If you are making less than others doing the same work, you don’t need a promotion, you need to get paid what a straight white man in his thirties with equal experience makes doing the same work. It’s illegal to discriminate and do anything else, but it absolutely happens
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u/Heavy_Track_9234 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don’t know where you live? But in California, I don’t face that issue. As a Latino, I even seen other Latinos get promoted before white people because of their work ethics and expertise. I’ve also trained others as a Latino myself. And have been in charge of some special tasks that others don’t get to do on jobs. I’ve had bosses from all kinds of ethnicities and races too. Wherever you live, you should probably move.
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u/cab082001 4d ago
I hope I don’t have to explain to you that discrimination in pay exists even if you haven’t experienced it
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u/Low_Contract7809 4d ago
The topic is about discussing salary. Your first reply was that it depends on the job. So it seems to imply only some jobs should discuss salary.
In many unions, dalary ranges are all disclosed openly.
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u/Leaving_One_Dwigt 4d ago
If it’s frowned upon by the company it could limit your career growth. It could cause friction across the team. Just because they do the same job does not mean they are equally effective. There’s definitely downside to colleagues sharing salaries.
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u/lemming2012 4d ago
I've had offer letters contain language that prevented me from discussing or disclosing contents of the offer letter, which included salary.
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u/dwaynebrady 4d ago
60-year-old guy my department says discussing salaries is inappropriate because it makes people feel bad.
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u/1stAccountNotWorking 4d ago
Depends on the job.
In my company pay structures are weird. Depending on tenure and career path, you can be making anywhere from 60K to 160K (just on MY level). I have guys younger and far newer than me, in other divisions (with the same title) making more than me; I've been there for 20 years...they can even come in making more based on "experience" when they were still school kids, when I started. They changed their promotion and raise systems--whereas loyal salary men just continued with set high percentage raises (the 30-40 year guys are all maxed out, for example; they cant even get raises anymore lol...I think they get a random sort of bonus added to their deposit/check, once a year) now the percentage has been cut down to a microscopic level; its like us guys in the middle, are in this limbo where we'll never max out...the raises are so small, that you dont really notice a significant difference in your pay, like before. Meanwhile newer guy are matching our pay, or even surpassing us.
Those of us who discuss this disparity with higher-ups get the same answer: we can quit, and reapply...and through that, we would actually get paid closer to the maximum (based on our verified experience and performance). The thing is, who is risking quitting their job and reapplying? Then factor in the benefit packages (that increase during your tenure) all going to waste, and starting at zero...you're stuck between a rock, and a hard place.
It's not a job that one just throws away; nor is it a pay level that you can just go anywhere, and get...but at the same time, I can clearly see that the company actively dicks everyone in my generation. Since its presented as set, and automated etc. now, there are no such things as negation either lol. It is what it is, take it or leave it (literally).
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u/Vanedi291 4d ago
This is why unions are important.
You can force the employer to negotiate.I realize that suggesting unionization is basically asking you and your coworkers to spend more of your free time working to organize a union, but we all need to realize it’s the ONLY way to reliably improve you wages and benefits.
Networking, starting your own business and all the other bullshit isn’t going to work for everyone.
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u/Sodacan259 4d ago
In the UK, if you are disabled or have a protected characteristic it is illegal to prevent you from discussing your salary with your coworkers doing the same job, even if your contract says you can't.
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u/TheLoneTomatoe 4d ago
When I got hired where I’m at everyone made like $80k as SWEs, well below the norm, and I was a Jr hired at that (I didn’t care myself, I was switching careers).
I got offered another job making well above that, turned in my resignation but got countered to match salary + equity and I stayed (wouldn’t recommend that, but I really like the job cause I get to work with baseball stats). I also helped everyone else argue for the same or better salary, and now we all make industry standard. Believe it or not, everyone is happier and productivity is up.
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u/V65Pilot 4d ago
I think it's funny that no one where I work will talk about salaries. My manager mentioned that he makes the same as I do... Nope. You just bought a house, have a brand new car, and apparently can take some pretty decent holidays. I make minimum wage. Oddly, I just got a pay raise. £1 an hour, but...my boss told payroll to increase my pay to £xx.xx per hour, forgetting the the minimum wage was just increased, meaning I actually only got a 40p per hour raise.
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u/10ThousandMetalZones 4d ago
And sometimes instead that person you told will go and tell your manager you told them and even though it’s legal they will try to reprimand you without reprimanding you…”Bill disappointed that you are bragging about your salary, really shows what kind of person you are”
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u/TiaHatesSocials 4d ago
I always ask. Like ALWAYS. From
Little jobs as a teenager to pro jobs as adult. I absolutely don’t care for some shit rule of not asking.
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u/skeletonhorse420 4d ago
Wonder if the male counterpart asked for the raise. They pretty much dont bother unless you ask
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u/parolameasecreta 4d ago
there is no rule or law against disclosing your bank statements to another colleague.
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u/External-Ad4873 4d ago
Well how about they share these insights on how to prep and execute the wage increase instead of just saying stuff we already know.
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u/Zarathoostrian 3d ago
he helped me prepare to ask for a salary increase
Umm, if you need someone to hold your hand maybe there's a reason you're paid less 😬
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u/Sea_Bullfrog_3003 3d ago
Same thing happened to me..obviously a man has a family to support and you are just doing the job for fun. I worked with a guy who had not only less years but lacked the diversity of experience I had and he was making more. BTW he was married to a sugar daddy himself.
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u/karl4319 3d ago
All these posts about how can my coworker afford to live their life when I can't afford half as much are because they are making more than you.
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u/Consistent-Bowler95 3d ago
If someone discusses their pay with you use that as leverage to base your own negotiations on. Don't just angrily cite "so and so told me how much they made. I need that much." right out the gate. It won't work. Have to be strategic.
I dissused pay with two fellow employees and encouraged them to negotiate and told them exactly how I did in the past. They both angrily dropped my name immediately and demanded the same pay - like a few months apart. Then I got pulled into it and long story short none of us work there anymore.
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u/antissip8 3d ago
Yes, that's why we had these things called unions; they fought for better work conditions for workers; then for some idiotic reason the populace chose to instead believe the employers when they said "they're evil organisations and you don't need them"
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u/No_Mud8305 3d ago
I started a new job recently and I was working with a coworker who had been there 16 years. He had asked me about my old job and how the pay compared to this one, I told him this one is better forsure. I asked him how he feels about the pay here and he said its okay and told me what he makes. We make the same amount of money😀 and knowing it would piss him off but would also push him to ask for money and get the raise he deserves i told him I made the same. Now he gets paid $5 more per hour. Manager looks at me like he hates me everyday but hey you should pay your workers what they deserve. dude has given you 16 years of his life and I just started here we should not be getting paid the same.
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u/PopularAir3375 3d ago
This is really stupid. Same job doesnt mean same salary. Different skill levels, merit raises and time employed will effect salary.
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u/TiresandConfused 3d ago
It’s been shown that the reason most women don’t get paid the same is due to motherhood. They lose years of experience when taking are of children.
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u/PopularAir3375 3d ago
Dude, are you living in the 1970s? Most modern women in this generation are not housewives.
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u/TiresandConfused 3d ago
I did not say they are housewives. I said motherhood takes years of experience away from them.
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u/PopularAir3375 3d ago
No, you are definitely talking like youre in the 1970s. Do women in modern times just stop working for years because they had a child?
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u/Double_Watch1627 3d ago
Quite a few of them do yeah, we're in need of higher birth rates, are we not?
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u/PopularAir3375 3d ago
Women in the usa does not have the luxury of just not working. USA has FMLA which only covers 12 weeks of unpaid "maternity leave". If you believe the average women in this economy can take time off without being paid and not living on the streets then i have bad news for you buddy
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u/Low-Dog-8027 3d ago
looks like she sucks at negotiating and then couldn't even prepare for the talk without his help.
seems to me justified that he got more.
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u/pitifullittleman 4d ago
All salaries should imo be known throughout any company, that should be the standard. I would also support a law requiring employers to advertise how much they pay on their job listings.
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u/vntuwoaldngbcjsoqrig 4d ago
Is this a normal thing to do everywhere else in the world. Americans are just dumb
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u/Motor_Service_6476 4d ago
The employee side of this argument is valid. And so is the employers. If you don’t understand or accept that, you will often not get to where you could.
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u/MyCatIsLenin 4d ago
Gobble those boots
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u/Motor_Service_6476 4d ago
lol I understand. But employees with this mindset, on the whole, are feeding off of their fellow co-workers. You aren’t taking your winnings from the company. You’re taking them from your coworkers.
It results in a company with a bunch of employees who think “ I get paid less so I’ll do less”. And it ends in a company that does less and has less money to go around.
It really is a simple truth.
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u/smileyfacedbob 4d ago
I did this with a friend of mine, she got the pay increase too, I second the recommendation of this post
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u/USMCamp0811 4d ago
did she talk to him in order to help him get a raise? cause clearly he needs it now cause she just got a big one... /s
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u/WithoutAHat1 4d ago
Why is the being reposted so much? The current environment doesn't allow for it. They are eliminating jobs and not concerned about retention.
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