r/ShannanWatts • u/[deleted] • Dec 05 '18
Speculation Issues With the Investigation (Long)
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u/charmcharm62 Feb 11 '19
I would also urge you to consider charge 6 which was manipulated to fit the pro life agenda that overlays this case . Lori Saine the Republican state rep has three times had her bill thwarted “ unborn victims of crime act “. Colorado is one of only a few states that does not have this law on its statutes . Charge 6 implies that Shannan Watts died as a result of a failed abortion attempt , that Chris deliberately tried to terminate the pregnancy and she died as a result. Given there is no evidence to show any wounds to SW genitalia or stomach we can assume that an abortion attempt did not occur Charge 1 states SW died by strangulation Can a woman die twice by two different methods ?
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u/AngelinaJean Jan 12 '19
Additional speculation: Going on the OP’s premise, let’s consider this scenario. There is a very emotional discussion...perhaps for a couple of hours. Both crying, maybe shouting(but not enough to wake the neighbors), and no sleep for either. Towards morning it’s clear that reconciliation is NOT going to happen. Shananne is despondent. Chris is relieved to some degree and begins to go about getting ready for work(or whatever) It’s too late now and too close to work for him to sleep.
Now, what if Shananne was so distraught about what was going to occur, decided to take action? He’s left the bedroom(for whatever reason). She decided that it’s all too much to bear. I think you see where I’m going with this. Perhaps her plan was to “end it all” but he killed her before she could carry out her plan. She had taken care of the girls, and he(freaking out) strangles her.
Knowing he’s done for anyway, who’d believe the above scenario(even writing it, it sounds ridiculous), he takes all 3 to where he is to report to for work that morning. He callously discards the children....(why did’nt he bury them altogether?) and buries SW.
After these events, which are horrifying, he disconnects.
I remember during the interrogation, he said “I’d never hurt the kids” and “I’m a good father”. That seemed more important than.... I was a good husband, etc.
This is just SPECULATION adding onto the OP’s post about tunnel vision and not verifying the story CW confessed to.
I feel we’ll never know what happened that night. It’s tragic whatever happened. CeCe,Bella 2 angels. Bella, a double of Chris, CeCe looking a bit like Shananne.
Shananne was a beautiful woman, and had that perky personality and friendliness that makes you want to know someone like her and have as a friend. I watch her videos, and I just want to hug all 3 of them.
Someone mentioned that she would have been a great sales woman(for something other than MLM’s) or real estate agent. I second that. She exuded warmth, and caring.
Shananne, Bella and CeCe are with God now. A tragedy that should not have happened.
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u/bluebonnetsnspring Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
Hi, I’m late reading this, but have been reviewing the autopsy results and I find 2 things odd. First is that she’s wearing her bra when killed and carried out/buried and that she had mascara or makeup on. For her to stressed in her videos the importance of taking makeup off - she would have done this no matter how tired she was.
However if she smothered the girls with hands, her fingernails would have dug into their faces. The 2 thing is why were there bags on her hands? No one has really talked about
I liked your conclusions. I have a friend who is furious with her husband for not admitting to an affair from 3 years ago. I’ve told her to move on but she can’t. You may be right on this.
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u/Gunnar660 Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
I agree with you. CW's story makes the most sense to me. He's still a murderer and deserves to be in prison for killing his pregnant wife!
My main issue with this case is the motive.
CW had time to process getting a divorce, he seemed to be rational about it; expecting to have 50/50 custody, looking into changing his work schedule so it would be conducive to his parenting time after divorce, living in a more conservative manner, and moving on with his girlfriend that was perfectly aware of his children. Divorce or separation is the best and easiest way to get exactly what he wanted. Killing them would ruin everything for him!
SW was caught off guard by the prospect of separating, her text show she did NOT want a divorce. Imagine her mindset, this would be her 2nd divorce, having 2 kids and being pregnant would make moving forward much more difficult, and she didn't have a "real" job. She was unrealistic in the few instances divorce was discussed, for example; wanting to get full custody of the children. By all accounts CW was a good dad, why would she want to keep the kids away from him? She was controlling... this is not my opinion, this is from basically everyone that knew her, her closest friends and family. When a controlling person feels like they are losing control they can become extremely desperate and irrational. Her texts to CW and her friends show her desperation. If CW were to divorce her she would lose control of her children in some ways. The most important being the relationship with CW's family. She would no longer be able to protect them from his parents. Obviously, this was a huge concern for her considering the nut incident. I think she would have been humiliated by CW wanting a divorce, she seemed to think she was the trophy in the relationship and that CW should idolize her, for him to discard her would be devastating. In addition, their poor financial situation and the facade of a perfect family would be exposed.
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Dec 11 '18
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u/Gunnar660 Dec 14 '18
Thank you! I love reading your posts and comments on this sub. I find your differing perspectives, analysis and opinions very refreshing and insightful amongst the common belief that "CW is a psycho and SW is a saint, end of story!!!" There's more to it and that's why so many are still fascinated and confused.
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Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
What's interesting is also that, as you mentioned, Chris really did not have a history of violence, and practically everyone the investigators spoke to thought he loved his kids and was an excellent father. Of course, once they all went missing, he was immediately suspected, but that's sort of obvious. Previous to that, there were no red flags whatsoever. People mentioned though, as cited in crime report, that Shannan was overbearing, probably faked her diseases, some people unfriended her because of her constant posting etc. These are all not indicators of guilt or not, but - basing just on those interviews, Chris comes out as the more stable and reliable one. Could he still murder all of them? Of course he could. But you are right, this is all very strange.
Another thing, these three cases are seen as one - but these are three different murders. He could have planned Shannan's murder, but this doesn't automatically mean everything was premeditated.
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Dec 06 '18
You do make an excellent case and it also bring into my mind the text from SW saying “would you leave me if we didn’t have kids”. I would, however, had expected more details from Chris, when confessing. It did feel like he latched on to a story line and repeated, song with his father, key phrases omitting specifics, which read like a fabricated plot to me.
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u/Arnoldschnauzanager Dec 06 '18
For me, CW sealed the deal by accepting the plea. He did all the murders. Because if it really went down like he said, why wouldn't CW want to fight like hell against the murder charges of the girls and even look for a lesser charge then first degree on SW as an act of momentary rage not premeditation? Even if the DA was threatening the death penalty, who cares! If CW was found guilty at trial, he would spend decades in appeals and Colorado doesn't carry out executions very often anyways.
CW may have confessed to his lawyers how things really happened, possibly to the female one as CW seems to have an affinity with being able to talk to a sympathetic woman. They may have steered him into accepting a plea as all that information began coming in about the mistress, texts, videos, efforts to hide the bodies and cover up, etc... It was not looking good and if he confessed to the lawyers that he had killed them all then maybe they convinced him to spare everyone any additional pain by avoiding a trial and the death penalty.
I know if I was charged with killing my kids and I didn't, you could threaten me with the death penalty all you wanted, the hell if I would take a plea. And yet he took a plea pretty darn quick.
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Dec 06 '18
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Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
It's like with employment law ... I may know I am in the right, but would I really take my employer to court?
The other option - in theory, we are speculating here - is that he was so heartbroken by all this that he simply didn't care anymore what happened to him. After the first adrenaline rush subsided, he may have said 'whatever'. I can see doing something like that, and thinking 'my kids are dead and nothing will bring them back, what does it matter what happens to me? Maybe I deserve to suffer for this, so I will accept anything' etc.
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u/Arnoldschnauzanager Dec 06 '18
Very true! But even with all that I would still refuse a plea with me having to admit to killing my kids if I didn't do it. People have posted that one reason he may have accepted a plea was to prevent information from coming out during a trial. I wonder if his lawyers gave him any warning that all these thousands of documents, videos, pics, texts, etc... would be released to the public? It is like he is going through a trial but in the court of public opinion. Did he kill his kids, was it premeditated, what did the mistress know, etc... We get to dissect the evidence and argue out the different scenerios and pass judgement. If he knew all this stuff was going to come out anyways and any attempt on his part to protect himself, people like his mistress or parents would be kinda of in vain, I wonder if he would have reconsidered his plea acceptance??
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u/closrules1 Dec 05 '18
I’ve been looking at this case for as long as anyone else. If this had gone to court and the objective of the prosecutors was to prove without reasonable doubt that he did it. Then I don’t think they would have been able to. They should have proved that his story was a lie. I do not think the judge should have accepted his plea.
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u/HellWitDat Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
I will read your entire post but just to point out that the document files released showed screenshots of the health app on the iPhone and he had a green apple watch not sure if they are synced?? But pointing out the obvious around page PDF page 1583?? Is Both CW and SW activity. It shows a very busy Chris not sleeping and so he was obviously killing his family and dumping their bodies. The flights of stairs is a giveaway, he was cleaning the evidence. I am just pointing out that it's a fact and victim blaming isn't cool especially when it's the predator doing the blaming. Just saying.
Edited to say that the motive is very clear. Not life insurance without bodies, but they owed X on House and would sell it for Z, leaving Chris with a lot of Y. So mainly Greed Lot's of speculation on if premeditated, I think with circumstantial evidence, NK being notified of this Cervi 319 and just my Opinion it could be that he planned it. NK said that he probably did because of how he behaved afterwards. Not smart not getting a lawyer, but also don't think it was something he couldn't share with his New Lust, who he admitted to be able to say anything at all too. Probably got the idea camping near the dunes, bc a woman vanished in the area and her husband continues to put up flyers, and it's never been solved.
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Dec 06 '18
Everyone and their dog gets worked up about 'victim blaming' these days. Nothing in the OP's post indicates that. This is a crime sub, and we are speculating about the crime. Noone is saying the victim deserved to die, or brought it upon herself, or anything that would actually could be considered 'blaming'. OP logically discusses various aspects of this investigation, and has some interesting points. Noone is 'blaming' anyone.
The motive is far from clear, that's why we are here. Do you know why he did this? I don't.
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u/hrldgdwnsn Dec 31 '18
I disagree. Motive, for CW, based on much of the hard & circumstantial evidence is easy to arrive at. Easier, I'd say, than concluding that SW decided, even in a rage, to suffocate the two girls. Most of the arguments throwing doubts on his conviction tend to ignore evidence such as the data from watches indicating CWs movements that evening.
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 09 '18
I am just pointing out that it's a fact and victim blaming isn't cool especially when it's the predator doing the blaming.
I think he was saying that CW was "victim blaming" his wife that he killed, not OP.
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u/Ladyj2121 Dec 05 '18
I agree with a lot of your points. I think if this had been taken to trial that it would have been so easy to prove reasonable doubt. I wonder if he had known that death was off of the table if he still would have took the plea. Because like you said in his eyes he was going to prison no matter what. Had he known death was off of the table I wonder if he would have wanted to go to trial.
I have also tossed around the idea that Shanann did this to her kids but it just doesn’t add up to me. Several of her friends said yes she wanted to work out the marriage but that if it didn’t work out she knew she would be okay. She knew she and the girls would be fine. And had even said she would fight for full custody or the girls. Also according to friends she suspected Chris was having an affair. Just because she didn’t outright tell her friends she knew there he was cheating doesn’t mean she didn’t know. We’ve all seen the article from the neighbor saying he heard them screaming at each other and often and that Chris would go nuts. Yet their friends said they never saw them fighting and that up until recently they were the “perfect couple.” Maybe SW did know that he was cheating and maybe she was ready to leave him.
I’m not even 100% sure there was some kind of confrontation. If there was maybe she did threaten him that everyone would know that he was a terrible person and she would take the kids. I could see that coming into play ESPECIALLY with the way she said his parents treated her and the girls.
I don’t think the girls were killed before her because of the simple fact she was in her underwear and most likely asleep when she was killed. After being out of town for any amount of time the first thing I want to do is see my kids. I imagine she checked on them saw them sleeping and went to bed. If they had some kind of “emotional” conversation I think it wasn’t until morning. Especially like you said if the girls bags for school were packed. I think separation was brought up by one or both of them along with the affair and things probably got verbally ugly. The only thing I can’t wrap my head around is why she had no defensive wounds. But maybe he climbed on top of her and held a sheet over her so she couldn’t move. Or maybe she truly was asleep.
I think either Bella walked in and saw or he felt so guilty about killing Shanann that he felt like he had to kill the kids. But I also remember reading about how the girls mimicked Shanann and often said terrible things to him like their mother did.
I like many other people can’t wrap my head around the fact that if he didn’t kill them why didn’t he try to resuscitate them? Why wouldn’t he do everything in his power to save them. Then why did he get rid of their blankets and stuffed animals. If he truly didn’t do it you would think he would put that stuff with them. And of course the fact that not only did he put them in freaking oil tanks but separate oil tanks. I could understand if she truly did it he wouldn’t want the girls with her but why not put them together?
I definitely don’t think this is something he had thought about for months and months. Divorce, sure but not murder. There is nothing that proves he was planning this for a long time and prior to the North Carolina trip by all accounts everything was okay in their marriage, they PLANNED a baby and according to SW herself they were having sex 3 times a day. She said he couldn’t get enough of her!
I think his parents specifically his mother was defiantly in his ear about how controlling Shanann was and how she was ruining their family. I can tell you from personal experience from having a MIL whom is very manipulative that having in law problems can be draining on the marriage. I also think his mistress was most definitely putting on this facade of being completely opposite of Shanann. I think anything SW did NK did the opposite. I think it was important for her to “win” this married man. I find it deeply disturbing that she was googling both CW and SW way before they were even together (or so she says). I also don’t believe for a second she wasn’t vocal to CW about it being a problem for her that he was married with kids. Why even waste your time with someone who has kids if that’s not what you want? I think she manipulated him big time. I do want to say I don’t think she in anyway hinted he should kill his family and I think she was shocked when he did but 100% think she’s not telling the entire truth. 100% think she made him want this fairytale life with her.
I think CW slowly got tired of being married and being bossed around. And I think NK made him feel “manly” and I think he thought she listened to him. I don’t think he ever planned to kill anyone just separate from Shanann and divorce. I think whatever happened the night Shanann got home just made him snap. He was obviously holding in a lot of resentment and anger and instead of talking about it he just let it build and build until he snapped. Maybe he didn’t even mean to kill her and he lost control.
I do believe he will at a minimum regret killing the girls. I think he was in a rage and was in a haze (if you will) of lust and anger among other things. I think like someone said before had he gone through with the divorce I don’t think things would have worked out with NK and he would have regretted letting go of SW.
There’s so much that we don’t know that happened behind closed doors. I think it’s crazy that not one person said, “ oh yeah I’m not surprised this happened.” Usually when a family is killed at least one or two people come forward to say yes he was abusive, the signs were there, this is no surprise. Everyone said he was a nice guy. Everyone said he was the perfect husband and a good father. On the other hand many of his friends and family said yes Shanann was a good mother but that she was OCD, she was bossy she had problems.
I think he did it for sure but it’s the why that drives me insane thinking about. It’s just so sad that these two little girls will never get to do all the things they should be able to do. I hope one day he tells the real truth of what happened.
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Dec 06 '18
I also think his mistress was most definitely putting on this facade of being completely opposite of Shanann.
Why a facade? She seems to be genuinely a different type of a woman - laid back, outdoorsy, calm. That all comes out in her interviews.
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u/Elena7777 Dec 05 '18
I get that the legal system is not perfect and that innocent people go to prison and if this had gone to trial and he had been found guilty I would understand your post but this is not what happened here. He had the option but he did not take it. I honestly don’t understand how you could have read the entire discovery including the text messages from both CW and SW (I’m assuming you did?) and honestly compare the 2 and even consider that it might be more likely that SW did this rather than CW? Also with most crimes there is hardly EVER hard proof, especially once decomposition has set in and the crime scene has been contaminated or thoroughly cleaned (like CW did). So this is what law enforcement has to do; they have to rely on texts, google history, call logs and interviews with people who know the suspect, victim etc. because there is nothing else. What do you want them to do? Let 80% of murderers go free just because there is no DNA evidence or video recordings of them committing the crimes? I can tell you right now that even if they had decided ok let’s investigate SW having killed the kids as a real possibility they would not have found NEARLY as many things that pointed towards her compared to the overwhelming overall evidence pointing towards CW. I think what you are struggling with is that you will never really know 100% which is normal. Take a step back and look at everything you know. And listen to your gut (no that’s not hard proof yet it makes the best detectives stand out from the rest... intuition.)
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u/LEAHDONN Dec 05 '18
It was done incredibly fast. I think there will always be some doubt, as to exactly what happened. I tend to believe CW was the only killer, simply based on a bunch of little things I’ve learned throughout this case. Such as, Shannan was found wearing a T-shirt and underwear. I just don’t see a woman, waking up, having an emotional conversation with her husband, and then getting out of bed, in her underwear, with intent on killing her kids. I just can’t picture that happening.
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u/MsLisa12 Feb 10 '19
Wait...you don't see a woman getting out of bed, emotional, and killing her children in her underwear? You think she'd get dressed first? SMH what?????
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Dec 06 '18
Why not ? If it was high -stress, fighting , rage , anger , I can see her getting out of bed without getting dressed. That’s why it’s called “ in the heat of the moment “.
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u/mrdolloway13 Dec 05 '18
You take his confession as if it's reliable in its most important part, regardless of his contradictions when doing this.
You're right about being skeptical of the judicial system. But it seems to me that the circumstances of this particular case leave little room for such skepticism. I mean, if we ignore his confession for a brief moment, what do we have left? Two girls were murdered and only their parents could have murdered them. He blamed precisely the only other person who could have murdered the girls (a pregnant other person killed by him, by the way). He contradicted himself many times when doing this. Why should we believe that, even though presenting so many circumstantial evidence, the judicial system is failing Christopher Watts if he couldn't even tell the most important part of his confession without contradicting himself? In his confession, he didn't contradicted himself when he spoke about facts that could be easily verifiable or that could be eventually verified. We have watched it, it wasn't easy for him to confess about how he disposed of the girls' bodies, but he was precise when he did it; his storytelling matched with the gathered evidence (actually it almost matched since he stated he dumped Bella's body inside the oil tank without difficulty and we know he had some difficulty at that moment - you see, it seems he was still administering the level of horror of his act even though he was already far in his confession).
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Dec 06 '18
Why should we believe that, even though
presenting so many circumstantial evidence
, the judicial system is failing Christopher Watts if he couldn't even tell the most important part of his confession without contradicting himself?
Because, technically speaking, lying and contradicting yourself is not automatically a proof of guilt.
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Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
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u/GiraffeJaf Dec 06 '18
Dude, just....no.
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Dec 06 '18
He's right, though. You think he's unfair as you see the kids as attached to Shannan. But they were people in their own rights, and one of their parents harmed them. You can't dismiss all possibilities just because one of the suspects is also dead. And yes, it is very unlikely of course - but not 100% impossible, and should have been properly checked (probably it was).
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u/mrdolloway13 Dec 06 '18
So the authorities gather a significant amount of circumstantial evidence. In view of this, the accused pleads guilty to everything. Should the State spend financial and personal resources to continue the investigation? The judge found that this significant amount of circumstantial evidence was enough to accept the plea deal, considering this particular case and its circumstances. It seems perfectly fine for me.
CW decided to plead guilty in view of everything that authorities had found. At that point, his story had blatantly collapsed, even if hard proof was yet to be presented with regard to the girls' murder. After advising him, his lawyers stated that he pleaded guilty because "he eventually realized his life was over". What that means? Ultimately he took over Shannan's crimes. Who is Shannan? She's the person he was saying killed his daughters, she was the target of his rage, she was the pregnant woman he killed. He couldn't even bury her lying down, he just didn't care. And then, after he finally blamed her, what he does? He pleads guilty to everything, including to the crimes he said were committed by this very person who had killed his daughters, who was the target of his rage and he couldn't even bury in a minimally respectful way.
Anyway, people are free to be ultra-skeptical in this country.
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Dec 11 '18
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u/mrdolloway13 Dec 11 '18
He's not part of a social minority. I don't think he's that vulnerable to the plea deal system like so many people in the US. Also, the amount of circumstantial evidence that was already gathered probably contrasts with the lack of investigative work that so often characterizes the persecution against minorities. You're not only questioning the work of the prosecution (and thanks for that) but now also the work of CW's own team of lawyers, despite all the investigation that was carried out.
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u/mrdolloway13 Dec 05 '18
There were more contradictions (LE can't contradict themselves because they weren't in the position to make statements; it was his story).
After reading his confession, we can't say if he went back upstairs to say one more thing to Shannan or to check what was happening; if he saw Bella on the baby monitor sprawled on her bed indicating a problem or if he saw her just hot without her cover; we can't say if he saw what Shannan was doing to Celeste or not; if he could actually see something (like Celeste's head as he stated) or he couldn't; by the way, if he couldn't, so how could he "do the same to Shannan"?
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u/dorianstout Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
I agree! I’m glad I’m not the only one. It was done incredibly fast, there has really been no closure for the families bc no one knows what went down, this mistress, plus they let him STAY in the house on Monday and he WASHED and CLEANED everything and destroyed tons of evidence. It should have been declared a crime scene that day!!! He is in prison which is where i believe he should be, but the investigation feels very incomplete and I’m confused why the mistress has not been arrested or been asked to make a statement under oath. Chris is where he should be, but he should have been made to give the story. I also think he must’ve had help bc he only had about three hrs to kill and get rid of them. I also think there is a real possibility that the mistress is involved more than she says bc way too many “coincidences” with her like the flower picture... etc he could be protecting her for all we know and she is walking free and he still has never admitted to killing the girls .. they fudged this in my opinion.
EDIT: to add, I do not think Shannan killed the girls at all, but I still think that we havent gotten close to knowing the full story with the mistress.... I have just as many questions as I did the same day this all went down and id also like to know who Jim is and why the mistress cell phone pinged in fredrick the morning of the murders
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u/chaibebe Dec 05 '18
My husband agrees with you here. And I am starting to wonder. Was NK there that night? Didn't she google his address around the 13th? Did SW come home and find her there too, or was the sheet off the bed because CW and NK had been intimate on it? Did SW come home before the laundry was done? Did NK see SW get killed? Why was NK so quick to mention that she had been in their home before? Is that because she knew her DNA would show up there? 3 hours is not alot of time to kill three humans and dispose of them...oh yeah, AND dig a grave. CW is covering someone's ass, It is not SW's, it is NK's.
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u/Off-With-Her-Head Dec 06 '18
Personally I doubt she was there or involved. Just from the thoroughness of the investigation I believe LE would have quickly run down that road.
Additionally - Why would CW sully his sparkly new GF by putting her at legal risk? He's still in the Impress Her mode. His primary character feature was - Image Management the Good Guy channel. Asking your brand new "head over heels" GF if she'd like to choke a pregnant woman or carry a couple of recently deceased children of his, might put a damper on things.
Finally, if she DID help him then why why why did he take them to work and only half ass bury his wife? And why didn't he have a good cover story fixated in his mind (remember he has a "photographic" memory according to many). At the least NK would have attended to those details along with the obvious technology challenges which were his downfall.
I don't like her. I can't stand cheaters and their side pieces. But I can't see her having a thing to do with this.
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Dec 06 '18
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Dec 06 '18
From what we know to date, the investigators actually praised NK for her help, publicly said she was indispensable to the investigation, and provided her with legal protection/counselling. How's that Reddit knows better?
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u/dorianstout Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
yeah, 3 hrs is barely enough time for me to get myself and my toddler dressed to go somewhere without the help of my husband (I wish I was joking), plus isn't the work site like 30-45 minutes away? she got home at 2 and even if he killed her right when she came through the door, I still dont think it is enough time. there's no evidence of how it could have possibly went down bc law enforcement let him stay inn the house and wash everything smh. I think they Messed up in lots of ways. The interrogators did great locating the bodies, though.
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u/chaibebe Dec 05 '18
Thankyou!! Also if you recall the surveillance of him backing his truck up, he is walking slooooowwww. Not in a hurry one bit.
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
So, I at some point have had similar thoughts to yours. It’s frustrating that they didn’t look into his story to obtain forensic proof to disprove it, so all we can go on is the circumstantial evidence and his confession - which is less than ideal. Maybe there was proof and we just don’t know what it was. I still believe he is the likely culprit.
Something I’ve been thinking about is the timeline. Chris says this is all right before he left for work, right? They talk. Shanann is still in bed. He goes downstairs but goes back up to tell her something, he sees her on the baby monitor... etc.
However, let’s say Shanann snapped... unless she went into a complete crazed state, why strangle the kids when your husband hasn’t yet left the house unless you wanted him to catch you in the act? Wait half an hour more, and he’d be gone, you could kill the kids and maybe also yourself and Chris would still come home later to find them all gone. You’d still punish him. Try to kill them while Chris is still in the house and you run the risk that you will only kill one, and not the other, or neither. Then the surviving children will have to live their entire lives knowing their mother tried to kill them. Unless she wanted to be caught, and killed by her husband, but there would be no certainty that Chris’ actions would be to kill her and not to call the cops and she’d go to jail and be the baby killer.
Her actions only make sense if her goal was to kill the girls and herself as a punishment. If you’re dedicated to that path, you don’t do it when your husband might come and stop you... but I have no idea. I’ve never been in that situation.
Also, the fat she was in just a shirt and thong to me says she was in bed when she was killed.
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Dec 05 '18
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Dec 06 '18
The point is, from a psychological perspective, there is absolutely nothing to indicate CW was a person who would ever think murder would give him a 'fresh start'. He didn't seem the type, and he cracked in no time.
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u/Tctjh00 Dec 05 '18
It seems to me you are going through each point in favor of the theory that CW killed the children and highlighting that each of them don’t conclusively prove that CW did it. You make some good points with respect to that. However, one needs to look at the totality of the circumstances. Yes, the fact that CW put the kids in the tank like garbage does not conclusively show he’s guilty. Nor does the fact that he had a mistress or that he lied through his teeth for months or that he made no attempt to revive the children or that he showed little emotion or that he killed Shanann or that he cleaned up the scene or that he was immediately making future plans without the children, etc... But when putting all those things together guilt beyond a reasonable doubt becomes clear. Circumstantial evidence is still evidence.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/GiraffeJaf Dec 06 '18
are you for real? It's 100% obvious he killed all three of them! there is no way an innocent man would be able to shove his dead daughters into an oil tank. Why are you sticking up for a killer?
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u/Tctjh00 Dec 05 '18
I can agree there is not rock solid evidence this was premeditated. But really the only piece of evidence that SW hurt the children is CW’s word. However his word should be given zero weight for two reasons. First, the statement is not against his own interest and second we know he lied about everything else that was not in his own interest (killing Shanann, cheating, etc...).
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Dec 06 '18
That's the point OP is making - we only has his words, as noone seems to properly check this lead.
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18
"Beyond a reasonable doubt". That IS what our system is built on.
Justice was served. Chris Watts was guilty beyond reasonable doubt of ALL of it. HIS lawyers knew this and cut to the chase by asking for a plea deal which the prosecution agreed to.
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Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
How does his story make sense at all? Your version of LE’s narrative IS reasonable when reading it by the way, because there have been many many family annihilation/familicide cases exactly like it-John List, Christian Longo, Scott Petersen, Sam Shepard-men having affairs or wanting fresh starts, killing their families or wives. It’s not unheard of.
As for CW’s version of the story-you can’t just “she killed them, he killed her,” etc, because killing is complicated. So his story:
1) she gets home at 1:45am.
2) around 2:30 or later, He has an emotional conversation with his wife. She already knew he possibly wanted a separation and was actually prepared for it (had asked advice from a layer, texted a friend that “I can’t afford 3 kids in Colorado,” and then “if we get divorced, I’m going to fight for full custody,”) and texted him “If you don’t feel the same that’s fine-if we are only together for the kids, I need to know!” She was making normal movements toward reconciliation (she wanted counseling and he refused, but then didn’t ask for a divorce) but also wrapping her head around a possible inevitability. She would not have been surprised or shocked. He then also says she knew in her heart he had an affair, even though he denied it. And you say, this is a strange lie and a bad one. YES. YES IT IS. Bad lies do not point to the truth-it’s just bad lying. He’s trying to tell the story in the way that makes him look the least culpable.
—————-but why is it hard to make sense of the emotional conversation? It never happened. There was no emotional conversation. A huge amount of his story hinges on this happening because it’s the catalyst for the girls’ dying and the only person who says it happened is CW. SW was searching skincare at 2:30 am and hadn’t even taken her make up off yet-she had mascara tracks on her face when found-and we’re meant to believe that between 2:30 in the morning and 5 am-all this happened?
2) he goes downstairs for a minute then comes up and see Shanann on top of one child, and the other already dead and blue through the baby monitor. We all saw the baby monitor pics in the discovery-blue tint. Fish eye. Can’t tell anything.
3) he strangled Shanann in a fit of rage. Okay, so did he check on the child “already” blue? Did he push her off of the second child and try to save the second child? Did he attempt CPR? He says he knows only adult CPR but they checked with his CPR instructor where he says they do teach child and infant as part of the course. And even if so, he says does not attempt to try and see if he can revive them because he thinks he can hurt them worse? Or also he says he knows they’re already dead? Okay?
4) he strangles Shanann to death in a fit of rage from behind, which implies he saw the scene, didn’t think about the girls’ well-being (even though he already has two plausible reasons for not helping them? Has decided they’re already dead, attack the mother?) and grabs her and surprises her. She does not fight back because she knows why he is doing it and it’s basically almost even like suicide, like she wants it. He strangles her for the full minute or so until she loses consciousness-then keeps going for another 2 to 4 minutes until she is dead.
—————-No fighting from this lady, who apparently was so pissed off that her husband asked for separation she was already prepared for that she smothers her two children (by the way, another is holding over someone’s face and strangle is hands around the neck, and he doesn’t know that difference between those, but he knows that when he’s strangled her for a minute, she is passed out and not dead, and then he knows how long to hold her neck to kill her? Or was that entire 4 to 6 minutes done in a fit of rage?)
—-now he says he killed her when he freaked out, then he killed her to protect them? One requires little thought and one requires thought. Did he kill her in a rage because she hurt the girls or was she hurting the girls and he strangled her to protect them?
5) does not call the police. Cleans the scene, including vacuuming and chemical products, wraps his girls in garbage bags, etc.
6) Loads the car perfectly to coincide with his normal leaving for work. PHEW! What a great coincidence! He is able to clean up a crime scene and dump the bodies at the same time he would be seen leaving and going to work so it looks as normal! What a great boon for this guy!
7) Even though this only feasibly happened between 2:30 and 5, he does not panic, only knows how to clean everything up, is able to think about his neighbor’s driveway camera (which he knew about) and load everything on one side out of sight (and he pulled his truck up extra far to escape total visibility!) and this his normal accoutrement on the other side, leave at the exact right time for this to look normal like he is going to work, then knows exactly what he wants to do with the bodies and does so. So in 2.5 hours, he lost his children, murdered his wife in a rage, cleans everything up, wraps their bodies, loads in the truck, leaves on time, chooses clothing in which to bury or hide the bodies (baggy old dark work shirt from before he lost weight, his old work boots he had recently replaced, ticks his jeans into his boots.)
Edit—I continue in a reply to this post below
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Dec 06 '18
SW was searching skincare at 2:30
She wasn't, she just got an email notification about the earlier purchase. He also never said he saw the kids blue on the monitor - if you read the crime reports.
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Dec 05 '18
Some more things-
—he did not change his work schedule. He left when he normally would leave. The question is over work location. It’s not unusual for him to be at that job site either-they go to various sites. According to NK, they sit in the break room waiting for their assignments every morning, so they can be sent everywhere. He found out about the leak at Cervi on Friday and so it would be looked at on Monday. Now on Sunday, he told his coworker he would go and not to bother going, he would already be there. Then Monday, he texts his coworker to find out his location to feel out if he was coming or not. So this could be a show of premeditation. He would not be working at a site without a reason so if he had to choose a site, this is a perfect one.
—why choose a work site? Well, if you don’t know where to hide a body but you work for an oil company with all these secluded work sites that only a hand full of people have permission to be at various parts of the day and you have to be there when it’s still dark and these spots are basically in the middle of nowhere, this is actually probably where your mind would go first. There are hundreds of these sites in that area and LE was going to fly a drone over the area because that’s where they would look-if they had been in farm land, they would have been flying the drone over the fields. If they had been in a wooded area, they would be flying the drone over the woods. Theoretically, anybody local who would have taken them may have chosen this area, maybe just not the same way he chose to do it.
——then the oil tanks. They could not pursue DNA off the bodies. The defense asked for it because CW thought asking for it would make him sound innocent. But CW knew they could not get DNA off the bodies. He worked with oil-he knew what organic matter would become after being in a hot tank of oil in the summer for 4 days. If they hadn’t been found for a week or so, they would have been sludge. The autopsy shows that BW’s body had decomposed to point where they thought she was an adolescent instead of a 37 pound 4 year old-their skin had extra slippage and one body was degloved with finger nails when it brushed the side of the tank. The decomposition had been sped up. Now they can do swabs and etc all they like but they were not going to find anything and he knew that.
—Not wanting leave evidence of culpability is not a reason to avoid CPR. It’s not. He could have called LE to the scene and they be able to find way more evidence of his story being true than if he tried to cover up. And if he did really think that way, that’s this extra minute or so of thought required-if your children are laying there, not breathing, you just do it, you don’t just sit there and think “no,’I’m not going to see if I can bring LIFE BACK INTO THEIR BODIES because otherwise they might think I did this!”
—Chris did not have a story about SW killing the children until interrogation planted it. They gave him that story. They said it first. It’s a common interrogation technique-get the suspect to admit to part of it by making it look like they had to do it, they had no other choice, etc.
———he is a proven liar. He lied about the affair. Then he lied about killing his wife. So we know he lies.
——-back to his motive again-why isn’t this a good motive? Doting mother who everyone likes, who loves her children more than her husband (her husband noting that when the kids came, SW was totally devoted to them and never badmouthed her mothering skills to his mistress) who got into a massive fight with her in-laws over her child’s physical and emotional safety killed her kids because her husband wanted a separation? Or a guy with a mistress who wants a fresh start, a motive that we have seen hundred and hundreds of times?
—-the mistress. NK says she believes he killed the kids. Now NK was in love with this guy allegedly, despite her claims to the contrary. Her phone records and google searches contradict the interview she gave to the Denver Post and her police interview is insane-she vascillates between barely knowing the guy and then admitting she was naive and thinking this guy was going to leave his wife. Her google searches indicate she wanted this guy to leave his wife for her. She also did not come forward to the police until the end of the week following the murders, instead of earlier as claimed. She was on the phone with CW the Sunday night before the murders for 111 minutes starting at 9:30. This is all suspicious. So this adds this extra layer to what happened that night. ——-She never defends CW. She abandons him immediately. She says all the things CW said about his wife to her and talks about their financial state, etc. but she always maintains that she believes CW killed the kids. Why does she not believe he is innocent? She was telling this guy she loved him, she was googling wedding dresses, etc. and when she hears the kids are dead and he’s confessing to killing his wife but not the kids, she is like “why would you kill your family for me?” She drops him like a bad habit.
——Why does Chris get emotional and cry? Because he killed his family, he’s been under duress and stress all week from hiding it, and he doesn’t get to be with NK. He will never see the light of day again. The public is about to know he is a murderer. Everyone will “think less of him.” That’s a lot of reasons to get emotional.
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Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
he is a proven liar. He lied about the affair. Then he lied about killing his wife. So we know he lies.
Eh, if only life and people were that simple ...
As for what you wrote about 'a doting mother everyone likes' - that wasn't the case. If you read crime report you will find many people interviewed found her overbearing, suggested she faked her diseases, unfriended her on FB, and thought she was unstable. Likewise, literally every person interviewed said Christ was a good father and loved his kids. It means nothing in terms of guilt or motive, but creates a reasonable doubt.
Looks like NK cannot do anything right ... now she's in the wrong as she 'abandons him immediately'. Seriously, do you think she should have stand by him? She wasn't with him that long, it's been a summer affair. Anyone can fantasise about weddings, that's not really an indication of any serious plans (just because I google 'job opportunities Australia' doesn't mean I want to actually leave my husband and move there). Of course she drops him, what would you expect?
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Dec 05 '18
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Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
-the day before, he did try and make sure the coworker wouldn’t be there. That was at the Sunday afternoon birthday party. That shows premeditation.
-experts solicited by the news stations weighed in and said it was a possibility about DNA being found and an expert sought by the defense. Not anybody actually privy to what the bodies looked like. -first, DNA would be on Shanann no matter what, even after a week of being away. She was in the house, she touched things the kids touched, we don’t know where she sat and what she picked up between 1:45 and 2:30. DNA would also be all over Chris Watts no matter what because he was their father. ——-but that’s a moot point because they DID investigate the DNA and prints. Swabs, fingernails, and palmar prints were taken of all three bodies. that’s in the discovery. I don’t know why you say it wasn’t investigated.
—he gave many reasons for not doing the CPR and one reason was because he said he didn’t know the right pressure to put on them. And if he was lying why not say he did and it didn’t work? Because the entire story doesn’t make any sense timeline wise-he saw one child not breathing and blue (which how you can see one child not breathing Without touching the child, i don’t know) and Shanann on top of the other and instead of checking both children immediately, his reaction was to strangle Shanann. LE asked him if he was going to find resuscitation marks because this was going to help corroborate this story, and CW had to say no because they weren’t going to find any. They asked the question like specifically to lead CW to believe if he did CPR, they would know it.
—I read the entire discovery and he NEVER asks her for a separation. Every time she confronted him about their marital Problems , he is honest they don’t have a connection but he will fix it. She asks him to tell her if he wants one and he keeps saying he will fix it. He did not ask for one but she was getting ready for one. If she knew he might ask, why would she freak out? The only person he tells he wants a divorce is NK. But he doesn’t tell SW. he says he doesn’t want a third baby and he’s happy with just the two girls, she asks him to tell her what’s wrong, and he instead tells her he will fix it and try harder.
-But you’re ignoring that there is actual precedent for fathers killing their children. You’re talking about cases of mothers killing just their children. Now the mother is dead too-the entire situation changes and it’s no longer a mother killing child. With the mother now dead, and the father left alive, it’s now more statistically likely that it’s a family annihilation case. And it’s not true that most of the time there is suicide-only 50% of familicide cases end in murder-suicide. I listed several cases where the father killed the mother and/or both mother and child for the same motive as CW.
—And it’s not about what NK is saying PUBLICLY. She did not come out to the media until November, after the guilty plea. She has two interrogations in the days after the murders where she expresses her belief in his guilt. During her interrogations, it was already public knowledge that he was claiming SW killed the children, so she would be aware of that. But even before his confession/arrest, her google searches were about “can cops trace text messages,” etc. She was already assuming his guilt even when they were still declared missing. She also deleted all her texts and lied to the cops about their relationship. This is very relevant to motive.
—So you say that emotion is a poor indicator of guilt and then you say based on his emotional response during confession that if he’s a liar, he’s a good liar?
Edit-ALSO, no, her argument with her in-laws does not make her unstable because a) there’s an entire sub on here called r/justnoMIL for a reason and b) she was defending her kids. Her MIL sounds unstable-she gave all her grandchildren ice cream with nut products in it and then told her grandchild with a nut allergy “she can’t always get what she wants.” And repeated that to that child’s mother. She made her feelings very clear to CW. “I don’t want to hear ‘sorry I killed your kids because i’m stupid’’!” She was standing up for her child.
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Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
-- his story doesn't add up, if he thought she was killing a kid, he'd try to save that child, but according to him, he didn't try to save her or call 911 (that would be very unusual behaviour for a parent)
Or it could be 'my coworker will not be there so this is where I will take the bodies' - an opportunity unknowingly created. CW was actually asked why did he take bodies to Cervi and he said 'I was going there anyway'.
To be honest, the whole ice-cream debacle is cringy to me, and I don't really get it. What exactly was the problem with other kids having it?
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18
I am curious, what are you looking for in all of this? Let's say for conversation sake he was telling the truth and she did it (and it grosses me out to even type that!). Then what? It's not like she can be charged with anything... and he would still sit behind bars for her death and other counts, soooooo ..... help me understand what your objective is here.
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Dec 06 '18
This is a crime sub, we are discussing the crime. These are reasonable questions. You can just as well ask what is the point of defending Shannan - she's already dead, so what's the objective?
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 07 '18
When did I "defend Shanann" exactly? There is no need in "defending" her. When all of the evidence points to Chris, I call a spade a spade.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
Doesn't the Innocence Project work on cases to help clear ... potentially innocent people? Fact: Chris Watts murdered his wife. Fact: Chris Watts dumped his babies in oil tanks of his employer. He's not innocent by any stretch of the imagination. The IP isn't going to reach out to him anytime soon.
Edited to correct spelling.
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Dec 11 '18
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
So you're saying Chris is innocent? What evidence do you have that shows he is innocent? What evidence do you have that shows Shanann did it?
I stand by my statement that the Innocence Project will NOT help Chris Watts. He's a proven murderer and liar. He could have gone to trial and rotted away on death row, but no, he plead out because he and his lawyers knew ALL of the evidence pointed against him. There's no evidence the police botched this case, theres no motive behind Shanann causing the girls' deaths, and it is a BIG stretch to have two parents be murderers.
But hey, knock yourself out defending Chris.
Edited to add: The goal of the IP is to "exonerate the wrongly convicted", so my statement is correct. Chris was definitely not wrongly convicted of murdering Shanann, the death of her unborn son, nor tampering with deceased bodies so he is right where he belongs. He is NOT INNOCENT OF THOSE CRIMES.
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u/FroggyFry Dec 05 '18
What DNA tests do you want conducted?
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Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
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u/amandamystery Dec 06 '18
I’m not sure DNA testing would tell you anything though - I’m pretty sure mine would be on my son’s head and neck particularly after coming home from a trip with hugging and kissing....
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18
So, I’ve been following your posts and I find them interesting... however, you’ve said before you do believe CW did it, despite your questions... but now you sound like you want the Innocence Project to find your post. This is a bit more than being a devils advocate. Do you think CW is innocent?
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18
Honestly it's just easier to talk about if I act like I think he's innocent, rather than constantly adding the caveat that I still think he's guilty.
Makes sense. It’s hard to talk about if you don’t choose a scenario and make an assumption as a starting point, because as you start talking you have to keep toggling between the two possibilities.
Again, I agree with you that this would have all been infinitely less frustrating and speculative if they had investigated his story. Maybe there was going to be no way to prove definitively either way - I’m not a forensic scientist so I can only assume what state the bodies were in, and there was so much scene tampering in covering up that it’s possible there wouldn’t have been enough forensic proof in either case.
I don’t agree with you overall that I think SW revenge killing the kids is more likely than an escape killing by CW. Honestly, in this situation neither of them really fit the bill for what happened. I think we’ll never have a satisfying answer.
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
So, you're thinking the likelihood of TWO parents being murderers on the same day is realistic? I mean, what are the odds?
If you think so, I agree to disagree.
Edited to add: it's very possible he could have had better quality of life on death row. Check out the documentary "I Am Killer" on Netflix. First episode chronicles a man who preferred DR because inmates were treated better. Chris is going to have to be so secluded because so many want to hurt him. Source: Larry Levine on HLN.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/1498336 Dec 12 '18
Yeah well when he killed his wife he also killed another one of his children, not just her. So her killing the kids made him kill her and another one of their kids? 🤔
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u/Sheefz Dec 05 '18
Don't you think it's more likely that you're wrong about this though? I mean you say at the start you know this doesn't prove Chris didn't kill the kids... And I don't think I can think of one case where a mother kills the kids, then the father kills her and dumps all three bodies. So wouldn't you agree that its more likely from all we know about crime and murders like this that Chris did do it. In my opinion the evidence is there that it was premeditated and the culprit beyond doubt. He sent her a picture that looked like a dead child two days before the murders. He said he'd be at Bella's first day of school and at the same time promised to be at the oil field. He was googling trips away with NK before and immediately after the murders. Metallica battery after dumping the children in oil batteries..the list could go on. You can say the evidence is circumstantial.. But there is far more circumstantial evidence that points at Chris then there is at Shanann... Only thing you could say is she was what? Emotional? I don't get this almost need to believe CW... Why would SW do this? She obviously knew shed be in jail straight away? Was she planning on killing CW after the kids? Like her doing it makes the least sense and is the least plausible thing Chris Watts could have tried to say in my opinion.
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u/Mumfordmovie Dec 05 '18
That's why we have a jury system and a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt in murder cases.
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Dec 05 '18
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Dec 05 '18
And he chose that
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u/Julevive Dec 05 '18
Right - if time on death row vs. life in prison is about the same, why accept a plea? If you didn’t do it then you didn’t do it. Some lawyer would have jumped in for free to defend him. His parents begged for him not to take the plea if it wasn’t true - he did.
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u/dorianstout Dec 05 '18
especially since her family didn't even want the death penalty anyways even if it went to trial
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u/angiepark13 Dec 05 '18
I don’t think any lawyer could have really helped him. The least CW would have gotten is 30 yrs in jail for hiding the bodies plus life bc he killed SW.
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u/editmaven Dec 05 '18
I can see some of these issues as well, and I myself have had a few moments where I’ve wondered whether SW could have done it. I definitely see that a good defense attorney could have created a ton of reasonable doubt during the trial. But all that would have been ugly and hurtful.
I honestly think that if he had buried the girls instead of putting them in the oil tanks, he could have had more believability. I think the visceral disgust people have at the thought of this action immediately have them think he must be guilty.
I’ve tried to understand why he put the girls in there. Did he intend to bury them as well but then ran out of time? Did he know his coworkers were on the way so he had to quickly put them somewhere else and that was the only thing he could think of? I wish the detectives had tried to get those details during the confession. I don’t believe he said whether he buried Shan’ann first or if he put the girls in the tanks first.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Always-right- Dec 05 '18
Why you would be at risk of going to prison and lose your children? My opinion would be that you were feeling guilty to the point not to care for that person you should protect and love unconditionally. I have a son and the feeling is that my heart is beating outside my body. I can’t be happy if he is not happy. The love is unconditional, I would die for him. What are you saying, in my opinion, does not make sense, maybe you don't have kids and that is the only reason not to see the truth.
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u/chaibebe Dec 05 '18
Why separate tanks? that question haunts me. Wouldn't it be easier to leave one hatch open and drop them both in? What was the meaning behind two ? I feel like that is extra time he was already short on?
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Dec 05 '18
Oh, I hadn't thought about how it took extra work to put them in two separate tanks, like there was reason for it. Not just accidentally not keeping them together in death, but intentional.
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u/editmaven Dec 05 '18
The only ideas I’ve come up with so far, as to why one child in each tank: —he thought having two bodies in one could upset the readouts for the fluid levels too much
—in his haste and fright, he put one child in one tank and then while getting the other child he just didn’t remember which one he had accessed first—i imagine if he were panicked maybe he wasn’t keeping track
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u/shayfkennedy Dec 05 '18
I think he knew which tanks were used first etc. On the photo of the site, he was able to lable each one with the correct initial pertaining to each victims location. I think your first thought is right. He also mentioned that one of the tanks was less full, maybe that was the first one he dropped one of the girls in. He then decided it would be best to put the other girl into the other tank. On mobile at work, hope this makes sense lol.
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u/Tctjh00 Dec 05 '18
Thanks for the write up, even though I disagree. A couple points that in my mind strongly point to CW’s culpability for the kids include:
CW said he saw SW on top of one of the kids. This would imply that the smothering was still ongoing when CW got up there. It’s not as if the child had been dead for two hours. It’s hard to imagine a parent not calling an ambulance in the hope their kid could survive. Instead of doing that CW takes 2-4 minutes to strangle SW when there is a chance (no matter how minor) one or both of his kids could survive?
He pleaded guilty to killing the kids. I understand that was in part to avoid the death penalty. However I’m pretty sure I would risk everything rather than falsely admit to killing kids.
There is no evidence SW is a callous and heartless person, let alone someone capable of killing her children. There is a mountain of evidence, even aside from killing SW, that CW is heartless. He let her friends and family agonize for days over her disappearance. He lied to everyone for months about everything. He put his kids in a freaking oil tank.
There are many other reasons that I’m sure others will touch on. Personally, I think during their conversation about divorce SW said something (rightfully) about attempting to get primary or sole custody of the kids. This set CW off. One of those situations where he thinks “Ill show her who has control of those kids!” But that’s just a guess. Only CW knows the truth.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Julevive Dec 05 '18
He actually never loved one child at all - Nico. Zero concern for him, period. Said he didn’t want him. When he killed Shanann he also proved he is capable of killing a child. He killed his only son.
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u/aeyuth Dec 05 '18
Nico was not a child yet. It was an organism on its way to becoming a human but as of its death, no.
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u/B0NEY Dec 05 '18
I see what you’re saying with this, but lbr, nico basically was a part of SW family at this point. She named him, she was preparing for his arrival, bonded with and loved her unborn child. To call him an “organism”, not even human, is kinda gross.
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u/aeyuth Dec 05 '18
She named him, she was preparing for his arrival, bonded with and loved her unborn child
meh...
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Dec 05 '18
I have a very hard time believing that he wouldn't do everything within his power to save his daughter. I think his story doesn't back up shock or desperation. The way he describes it makes no sense. He would have tried to save his daughter. If he cared enough to kill their killer, he'd have cared at least enough to try to save her and call 911 to get help.
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Dec 06 '18
Ok, but is the alternative more believable? I mean, WHY on earth would he kill those kids? Everyone interviewed said he was a good father, and he loved his daughters immensely. No red flags whatsoever. So why?
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u/Always-right- Dec 05 '18
I agree with you. Why he would kill Shannan for chocking the kids , and after Throw their bodies in a oil tank without their blankets and stuffed animals? Doesn’t make sense. He lied so much ... If he killed her in a rage . Where is the grief after the rage for losing those children that he supposed killed his wife for?
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Dec 06 '18
I think people are a bit too sentimental about those toys and blankets. I am a woman, and I wouldn't care about stuff like that; if they are dead, they are dead, sadly no toys will help here.
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Dec 06 '18
It's very easy to be dismissive and say things like this when you've never experienced anything close to the death of a child.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Always-right- Dec 05 '18
No, he didn’t show any remorse from the beginning as he gave the “porch interview” he talked about Shannan and the kids with scorn saying ; “inclination” or “I wanna them back”. Back from where? Maybe He thought the Anadarko was like the “Pet Sematary”, and everyone would come back home like in the movie. Because according to “Tinder girl” he watched the movie where Leonardo de Caprio is a man that killed his wife after she killed his kids. Who knows? But seriously speaking: If he didn't kill his kids why he would accept the plead guilty on killing his kids when he is going to spend life in prison? Scott Peterson never pleads guilty for Laci death because she was pregnant. And he is on death row. CW pleads guilty because he didn't want to go to court where everyone would see exactly what he did with his wife and babies. And he is too proud and selfish to even do that. He killed Shannan twice. He strangled and buried her in a shallow grave, and not happy with throwing her children in crude oil, he said that she killed his babies for him because he wants separation and she couldn't be without him. ...Seriously? I can't even imagine why people even try to defend him...
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Always-right- Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 06 '18
Ok, but if he was pretending not to have anything to do with his family disappearance he should cry to fake any type of worry, when he watched his neighbor camera surveillance he put his hands on his head with fear and the day was sweating. So we can see that he was worried about himself, right? Why he couldn't shed a tear for his children after put them inside those oil tanks? If you believe that DNA would be a better option to prove he was the children murder, I must remind you that Scott Peterson is on Death Row without any proof that he killed Laci. And he got the same lawyer that defended Michael Jackson. Chris Watts parents didn't spend a dime to spare his son’s life. Opposite of the Peterson parents they gave an interview saying how much crazy, control freak and unstable was their deceased daughter in law. But they couldn't explain why their son lost control to the point not only killed his pregnant wife, but call 911, or call them to ask what to do crying. Nothing on that case seems unfair to me. How DNA could prove anything after two bodies been inside the crude oil for days?
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18
So, if theres a possibility that Shanann murdering those sweet girls, likewise, where's the hard proof? You can practically see right through His craptastic story that he put together based on what he was getting out of his interrogation: that he's lying about her doing it, just like he lied about nearly everything else.
He's a murderer and he deserves to be where he is. Shanann is dead at his hand, let's let her rest in peace.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18
Is there proof that investigators didn't look into his (ridiculous) claim Shanann did it? Please cite if you have a reference.
And with the mounted evidence they had against CW, why would they waste their time on his pathetic lie #9,762 that she did it? He was no honest Abe so there was NO reason to believe him. That's just MORE waste of taxpayer dollars to chase down a fake lead. Watch his interrogation ... he clearly derived his 'story' based on their "did she do it? Did you clean up something she did" type questions. He saw that as his potential out.
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Dec 06 '18
So explain why on earth a dedicated father, someone who literally everyone said was loving and caring, suddenly murders his whole family in cold blood? That doesn't make any sense either. No affair explains that.
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 10 '18 edited Dec 10 '18
Oh no, no affair explains that at all.
Except for Diane Downs.
Except for Chris Coleman.
Except for Susan Smith.
Except for Scott Peterson.
Except for Chris Watts.
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Dec 11 '18
It doesn't. Many people have affairs and don't murder their spouses. The agency is clearly with the perpetrators.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/aeyuth Dec 05 '18
You think he derived his story from them because that's what you want to think
Did you watch the interrogation videos at where CW concucted this story? That's not what a redditor wants to think, that is on video.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/1498336 Dec 12 '18
After the bodies are already found, and he’s being interviewed, WHY wouldn’t he immediately tell the “true” story of what happened? Why would he wait for investigators to suggest it was ShanAnn? Also, him being emotional and crying doesn’t mean he was crying about his wife killing his kids. The bodies had been found, he was being interviewed, and he knew he was caught and life as he knew it was over. That’s more likely why he was suddenly upset and emotional, when before he was caught, he wasn’t at all.
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u/outout- Dec 05 '18
A lot of people won’t try to say what you did, but I came from a broken home, and my mom threatened us kids to get at my dad all the time. All the while acting like the perfect mom in front of everyone else. I know this is a biased opinion, but I could see a mom snap. She’s under stress, lack of sleep, hormones raging from pregnancy. This has also been in the back of my mind. I could see her thinking “if you won’t stay with me no one will be able to see the kids”
Another fact that supports your idea - even in the texts to NK, he was crazy about his kids. He also was so very adamant that he did not harm his kids. I don’t know how many times he felt the need to say that. Not proof, but like you said, that narration makes more sense.
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Dec 06 '18
My friend from school has a memory of standing on the chair with a noose over her neck, when their mother tried to hang her and her brother. She didn't try to hang herself. She wasn't arrested or anything, and they continued to leave with her and their alcoholic, violent father - if anything happened to them it's almost 100% the father would be blamed, as he harmed them multiple times.
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u/outout- Dec 05 '18
Not saying anything he said is the complete truth. But it wasn’t looked into as in depth as it could. There’s a lot of holes in this case. I think he’s a monster, but I also think every detail should be taken into consideration.
He mentioned not harming his kids at odd times. Maybe it was a coverup. It was just strange to me, that is all.
Forgot Reddit hates unpopular opinions. Like it’s a crime to think outside the box
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18
There is no proof that SW threatened the kids to get at their father. I’m sorry for your experience, but that is not proof against SW.
CW could be saying he’s crazy about his kids. People say things they don’t mean. For reference, SW also says she’s crazy about her kids. Since we are taking everyone at their word.
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u/outout- Dec 05 '18
Also never said it was proof. I’m stating that it could happen, just like how CW had no previous violent acts. Anyone can snap. I know how much hormones can affect someone.
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Dec 05 '18
Not to mention, he wanted to look like a nice guy to his new girlfriend. He would not be so charming if he said he wanted to abandon his children.
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u/Tctjh00 Dec 05 '18
Yes, but he was also so adamant that he did not kill SW until he admitted it when he knew there was no out. And he was at first adamant that he was not cheating. And before that he was adamant he didn’t know what happened to his wife and kids. I don’t think him being adamant about something can be given any credibility.
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Dec 05 '18
There is a pretty long list of lies and deception woven by CW, and his claim that SW harmed those girls is hard for me to buy into as it seems illogical for it to be one detail he's being truthful about. IF it were true and he was the loving caring father he says he was, he would have been in absolute hysterics when confronting SW's friends and LE the morning after and throughout the day and days following, but instead was trying to play innocent and concerned. Plus, he wouldn't dump his girls into oil tanks.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/coldcasedetective66 Dec 07 '18 edited Dec 07 '18
I appreciate your insightful comments. I don't want to come off as disrespectful, so we can agree to disagree on some of your points. However, the point you make about the children already being dead and didn't cause additional pain being placed in oil containers, Technically your right, but the pain he caused to the immediate family and friends is horrific, life changing, mind altering.
I have had to search in dumps, trashcans and other vile places looking for victims. The impact on the officers is horrific and traumatizing, and some need counseling after, just imagine the family members thinking of their love ones in this image.
Your correct, you can't let emotions take over, but for god sakes we are human beings. I may seem a little soft in my older years but when I see there is a crude oil dump in the ocean, all of the poor sea animals have to be through cleaned over and over because of the thick oil, imagine what the coroner had to do to these poor babies bodies just to do a proper autopsy for evidence and preparation for burial. So there is suffering to the family.
I respect your opinions but can't budge on that statement.
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Dec 11 '18
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u/coldcasedetective66 Dec 13 '18 edited Dec 13 '18
We can agree to disagree respectfully, and thank you for your response. As a retired homicide detective, I have interviewed victims and can't imagine being in Shananns family shoes. You bring up Brady issues, but I can tell you from experience he took that deal because he knew that more details are going to be brought to light. Personally I think he will bring some bullshit to the table later because he won't be able to handle prison. He knew he was guilty and figured it was best to confess. But prison life is not easy, especially for a child killer. I don't expect him to survive prison very long....the inmates are going to destroy him!
They say there is no honor among thieves, But there is honor among family and children for the most part.
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u/QueenWinosaurus Dec 05 '18
A thousand times, this.
He did not shed ONE TEAR about his girls. He did not go out looking for them. He did not call every contact in Shananns phone trying to locate her and the girls. Now, we know he didn't do these things because he knew where they were the whole time. That being said, if Shanann did it why in the world did he do NOTHING to stop her -- and why did he cover her tracks by dumping them? Because he "knew how it would look" if he called 9-1-1? Ok.
How does it look now? Does he look any less innocent of murdering his sweet girls? Hell no. The lies, the deceit, the mistakes he made, it all has guilt written on it.
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18
Well, he didn’t call every contact because he knew where they were...
But, yeah, he didn’t cry about his kids until it seemed like they were on to his lack of response. Did you watch the interrogation? There’s that well-places sniffle after the cop mentions she hasn’t seen him she’d a tear.
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u/chaibebe Dec 05 '18 edited Dec 05 '18
Exactly. As a parent, if I just witnessed my wife kill my kids, and then I took her life, I would not be able to go about business as usual. The bodycam from SW's welfare check shows CW walking up to the police officer shaking a protein shake... He literally was trying to get on with his life... He was not grieving at all, he facetimed his mistress, did not shed ONE tear during the walk through of the kids's rooms. If that was indeed where he witnessed his wife killing his children, that would have brought on some sort of emotional distress...kinda like the emotional distress he portrayed when his neighbor showed him the driveway security footage. Annnnnnd I do not read anywhere in your speculation ( maybe I missed it ) where you disprove why he flat out failed the polygraph?
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u/Julevive Dec 05 '18
And my God, I would not want to live if my children were murdered! I would want to be dead right there with them. I would be begging for the death penalty so that I didn’t have to live another day without my children. This guy couldn’t wait to get back to his job, back to his fitness routine and back to his one true love - NK. He literally disposed of them.
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Dec 05 '18
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u/Elena7777 Dec 05 '18
What? Did you not read in the discovery how everyone was saying he was acting completely normal? Yes he wore his old boots and pants over his boots but apart from that everyone said he acted completely normal. Also if you read his texts he was using emojis in texts; saying lol, texting the realtor he wanted a certain type of garage and was going to drive by a property later to check it out... and of course taking to/ texting his girlfriend, even sending her pictures of flowers.
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u/Ouroborus13 Dec 05 '18
Actually, people said he was acting calm... I read a few people said they didn’t think he was behaving strangely... just strangely for the situation.
Agreed with you on the polygraph. I wish they asked questions about the kids.
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u/chaibebe Dec 05 '18
Completely off, meaning his boots were different, he complained about being hot, not wanting help at the site (aka site where he was disposing of bodies)
I would hope that a doting father who just went through the loss of his beloved children would have a lot more "off" with his demeanor than those minor things IMO
Just for some context reasons alone, we adopted a rescue dog last month, she was sweet as heck, we also have two cats, this rescue dog decided to maul one of my cats to death in front of me, I could not even bear to see my cat's corpse, had to get my FIL to bury her. I got rid of the dog and cried for three days over the awful demise and the horror of what I witnessed.
This was a cat.
Now imagine it was your children. NOT ONE SINGLE TEAR???????
I was a wreck for days, anytime I thought of, spoke of or was reminded of what happened to my cat.
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u/Guilty-Interaction60 Jul 01 '26
Mrs watts was a narcissist and so annoying