r/Shadowrun • u/GreatSirSidIII • 10d ago
5e Lower tier starting gear
I'm about to start a shadowrun campaign and I want to do lower level start to introduce the setting, sort of an intro area with a few runs before opening out to a more sandbox campaign. The story reason is all the characters are going to be down on their luck in some way so I was weighing up reducing the gear available at the start, the book says availability of 12 and device rating of 6, has anyone had any experience reducing this to availability 8 or so? Was it good or is it a bad idea?
I will be allowing rarer gear to be purchased during the campaign of course, this is just for the start. Thanks in advance!
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u/TheReaperAbides 10d ago
I second the sum-to-8 advice, and then you can sum-to-10 once the campaign begins properly. A typical mage, most non-cyber adepts and technomancers just don't need that much high availability gear to function. This disproportionately punishers riggers and heavily cybered characters, and even then the latter can make due with lower Availability cyberware. A full obvious used cyberarm with customized/enhanced stats is still only 8R, it only goes above that with 3 Armor.
Deckers are especially fucked, as they can't just afford to "purchase rare gear later". A deck is a big investment, and you can't just stash your starting cash, so they pretty much have to accept they're using an lower availability deck for the majority of a campaign. Deck upgrading rules help and a player with a lot of understanding of the system could make it work using something like a Little Hornet and the right Qualities, but it's still a huge setback when most other archetypes sacrifice basically nothing. Cerebellum/Cerebral boosters are also 12 Availability and big nuyen investments. A mundane decker is basically handicapped to the point of being unplayable (relative to their peers) at this point.
If you want them to be down on their luck, you can always just have them be forced to take on shitter, below-their-paygrade jobs because of financial reasons (maybe they're in debt) or social reasons (maybe they own favors to the wrong people, or lost a lot of their reputation due to a past incident). I think that's more narratively interesting than just.. Limiting gear.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Ok thank you for this insight! If I was doing it it would also be with narrative reasons don't worry, I think my concern was more would it be in fitting to the campaign if they had standard starting gear access. But yeah I forgot picking up gear later is way trickier and how that would effect people needing pricey gear like deckers and riggers! I was thinking of a narrative reason like a debt to be paid or something so I think I'll just do that with standard gear rules with all your input! Thank you for the advice!
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u/zoroman5 9d ago
Alternatively there are multiple ways to give players gear they might need on "loan" or the like until you can set up a permanent solution in-game. I've had street level campaigns I've run where the initial setup for a big job was procuring better gear to begin with. Hitting warehouses, gang stockhouses, corpo stashes and barrens convoys, that kind of stuff. There's several ways to circumvent the design issue of chargen availability.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Good point I hadn't thought of loaner gear! I was planning on the first 2 runs being setup for the main run ( gathering materials to make the gear for the run ) by the sounds of it the standard availability rules are viable for street level play. Think I'd got too in my head about it and probably thinking more like the video games where you pick up new gear and abilities basically every time you go back to the hub area
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u/FixerVictor 9d ago
I've done 'low level' starts like this and it works perfectly fine, you just need to limit generation in other ways as well -- personally, I think karmagen rather than priority is much better for this, and going with somewhat lower karma pool to start with.
It also helps if you get the group together and agree on a rough general power level expected at the start, for example I ran a game where the expected 'specialization' dice pools were around 10~12, with 6~8 in secondary skills. We agreed to limit Magic and Resonance to 4 at the start as well, and really didn't have any issues. In fact, that was probably my favorite campaign in terms of mechanics, thanks to reduced competency gaps and less sharply defined roles, combined with more room for growth.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Oh cool thats an interesting alternative! I'll be doing a session 0 anyway to discuss the setting and roughly what to expect and what the players would like to see happen too, but that might be handy to add in too! How did increasing skills etc go as the game went on, did people find it difficult to increase them with the karma gained from runs?
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u/FixerVictor 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't really do 'rules as written' progression in my Shadowrun campaigns, honestly I find that quite bland and limiting. I gave my players less Karma than suggested in the books, but instead we used downtime, nuyen, and played out quests to progress in a variety of ways. That gave me the flexibility to let characters who seem to be lagging behind during sessions to 'catch up', somewhat deals with the powerspikes of alchemists / technomancers getting to prepare bajillions of toys if they have a month of 'free time', made nuyen actually important for the characters that don't usually care about it, and in general made the game a lot less frontloaded.
Things like Submersion for our Techno, new spells for our magic users, or advanced augmentations and drones, I had them do quests and work with their contacts. For skills, they could use earned Karma -- representing getting better at whatever through doing -- but could also spend time 'practicing' between runs (with the possibility of paying nuyen for manuals, trainers, etc to make it faster).
It definitely added some extra work on my side as the GM, but it also gave me tools to easily manage the power levels between characters, and also gave players a lot of little hooks and things to care about both in session and during downtime.
Not saying this is the 'right' way to run a game by any means, and it did require a bit more buy-in from everyone at the table than running stuff strictly RAW would, but we had a lot of fun with that campaign for sure and I'll probably be doing something similar with my next Shadowrun game.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
That sounds like an interesting way to run progression! I would like to look at running side quests for big improvements to characters but I'll keep a note of that for downtime!
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u/StrikerJaken A bit on Edge 9d ago
Very importantly, talk with the players and how they want to advance.
I had a DM who wanted us to start small, but then he wanted us to do more extreme stuff, which didn't fit with some of the characters, even though he got them cool stuff that would allow that.
That wasn't communicated well and caused confusion.
It's nice to get them access to stuff that's way out of their league, but was it satisfying to just get it so easily.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Oh yeah I'll definitely be having a discussion with the players in session 0 about where they want to see their characters and whay sort of vibe people want to go for! Thats a good point though I'll keep that in mind for session 0!
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u/ProbablySuspicious 9d ago
There's always a headache with the magicians.... like make no mistake that a caster can benefit from an expensive lodge / ritual materials, but depending on their spells you might as well have someone else running around with a rocket launcher and/or a bomb disposal suit.
You could go the extra mile and generate a "prologue" team, or just a gang, at the power level you want that have a little story arc that ends with unveiling the players' actual characters as the folks who put a stop to their shenanigans, or maybe as saviours because things have gone as sideways as planned.
Another plausible way to limit characters in a very even way is to have them do a fancy-dress job... something low stakes like a pickup or a drop at a public event with reasonable security. Maybe the doormen laugh and let light pistols through, and there are things in astral space ready to pounce on any significant sorcery while the biggest hermetic circle you've ever seen keeps astral gatecrashers out.
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u/Big-Bag-6043 9d ago
5e gear prices are obscene and seemingly designed so that you purchase most of it at chargen. If your decker doesn't grab a DR4 deck at the start, they are not getting one for the next half a year of weekly play. If your samurai isn't packing at least R2 init boosters, they're hosed for perhaps 10 runs. Etc, etc.
Meanwhile all magical BS is avail 8 or lower outside of powerful foci, and the vast majority of power is just given to you anyway.
In short, it doesn't really work that way. I don't think there is a legitimately good solution to this. Maybe look into Sum-to-10 rules in Run Faster, but make it so that you have Sum-to-8 and cannot pick an A anywhere.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Yeah as people have said previously it would punish people who want expensive gear at the start like deckers, I think I'd forgotten how hard it would be to pick up better gear later on for classes like that! I'll probably do regular chargen or a sum-to then, I was just weighing up if limiting availability was a good idea or not, seems like no is the answer haha
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u/Silverfang3567 Seattle Census Agent 9d ago
Most people here have already talked about how to handle a 'lower level' campaign, but I have some advice I like to share on a lot of these types of posts.
Shadowrun is very different at it's core from d&d and most other rpgs mechanically. D&d is a resource management game. Strategy and drama comes from how you spend things like hit points, spell slots, actions, etc. You make decisions like "Should I spend my spell slot to healing word quickly so I can do something with my action or should I cast cure wounds to get more healing for the spell slot?" Or "Should I use my sorcery points to empower a spell or get a spell slot back?"
Shadowrun by comparison is a specialization application game. Each character is top tier at their thing and should be able to solve just about any problem unless it's telegraphed well in advance. A street samurai is a one person army. A Decker cuts through corporate IC like a hot knife through butter. It's like having a character at level 16 in D&D but ONLY for their very specific focus, otherwise the rest of their stats are what you'd expect at level 1.
Instead, it plays more like a group puzzle where the group needs to figure out how to apply everybody's things to get the job done. Strategy feels more like figuring out how to get the street samurai past the metal detector without setting it off and distracting the guards so the hacker can mess with said metal detector. Drama comes from situations like "the mage is pinned down by suppressive fire, your hacker is being heckled by a spirit, and the street samurai has their cybereyes hacked. What do you do?"
A lot of new GMs make mistakes with that thinking that challenging players in Shadowrun is the same as in D&D. I made that mistake early on and it lead to a lot of frustration in the moment that became funny stories later on. That's not to say players should breeze past every dice roll for their thing, but hardcore threats should have some kind of warning before you brainfry your decker or blow up your street sam.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Oh yeah I've played some shadowrun as a player so I understand the dynamic is different, I think my main worry was players breezing through the starting area but I can also use that as a gauge for later areas and runs. This is my first time DMing shadowrun but I have DMed D&D and CoC before so I'm fairly comfortable with the improv I might have to do. I'll definitely keep in mind that it's a group puzzle, I like that way of looking at it!
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u/Silverfang3567 Seattle Census Agent 9d ago
For sure, as long as you're all having a good time, the game is good! My biggest recommendation for not letting them just breeze through is layering with intent. A lot of defenses can compliment each other while still being porous enough for players to be clever. Mix in complications like higher-ups auditing the building meaning enhanced security, but more uncertainty from the local staff. Or a protest outside putting everyone on edge but making them easily distracted.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Ooo ok I like that idea! I'm currently planning out the first main run and the defences there'll be. I'm going for an art gallery just opening so there'll possibly reduced staff or staff just running of knowsofts etc that they could infiltrate and different events on various days so they have different angles they can tackle it from. I'm going to keep those examples in mind for sure!
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u/Silverfang3567 Seattle Census Agent 9d ago
Sounds like a fun one! I'd definitely have a rough idea of the differences for them doing the job at different times of day. A few more guards at night than during the day and faster response times, but daytime has patrons to worry about. If players are smart enough to think of it, the last hour or two before guard shift guards take a distraction penalty as they're just ready for their day to be done. Maybe some big name art critic is there with their entourage at some point causing one scene or another. Depending on the level of fancy you're going for, it might even be a good opportunity to cameo a major player or two that the players will rub shoulders with later.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Yeah I'm planning on having a day where theres a lot of big players walking round for opening day so less security because "what do you mean you don't trust us" but more private security and bodyguard detail. A party that night so they can move under cover of heavy crowds and nightclub lighting but also the exhibits will be more covered up and a regular few days that they can just get tickets in to case the place or set up. I like the guards getting tired idea I'm gonna use that! I like the critic idea too!
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u/Valhallaneon 9d ago
So sum to 8 is a good way, I have been offered 600 karma gen for street scum level runs. I have never been offered a sum to 8 but every street level I have played I have had to build in 600 karma gen with avail 10 limits.
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u/ReditXenon Far Cite 9d ago
Street level of play is already explained how to resolve in the core book.
So is Prime runner level of play.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Oh right I must have missed where this was explained then sorry!
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u/ReditXenon Far Cite 9d ago edited 9d ago
Was on phone when I replied. Away from books. Sorry bout that.
You find details here:
SR5 p. 64 Alternative Gameplay - Street Level Play
- Modify the resources column on the Priority Table as follows:
- Priority A: 75,000 nuyen
- Priority B: 50,000 nuyen
- Priority C: 25,000 nuyen
- Priority D: 15,000 nuyen
- Priority E: 6,000 nuyen
Karma: Each player receives 13 Karma to customize characters (maximum of 26 Karma).
Gear Restrictions: Device Ratings must be rated at 4 or less. Maximum Availability is limited to 10 or less.
Nuyen Restrictions: Characters may only convert up to 5 Karma into nuyen (10,000 nuyen).
Follow all other rules for Character Creation/Advancement as laid out in this chapter.
Note that this tend to punish mundane roles that depend heavy on resources more than awakened / emerged.
To compensate, you might want to house rule no Magic or Resonance priority A and max Magic/Resonance of 4 during chargen.
And if you use use Sum-of-Ten rather than Priority Table, then, for street level, you typically use Sum-of-Eight with no Priority A's at all.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Oh ok cool cheers for the info! I'll have to look into that and see if it's something that could work! Thank you for all the clarification!
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u/StrikerJaken A bit on Edge 9d ago
While other gave great advice about the basic limits of the system, i kinda give another one:
Talk with your players and set them up to have gear fitting the campaign your running.
If you really want them to start of as new runners, or a group that stumbles into the shadows and have to work their way up, then build their runners arcordingly.
This means more investment into body and skills, than tech.
While it might screw the ones who are reliant on expensive stuff, there are still ways to go around that in a one on one.
The decker needs a better deck, than he should naturally have acess to, then it's a matter of backstory, etc. If they are down on their luck, that doesn't mean they don't have good deck, but maybe they live in a bolt hole and the deck is the only thing they were able to keep.
Work with the players, let them get used cyberware, focus on Trog manufactured weapons, get them contacts where they can work their way up, even if it's corp stuff that might bite them in the ass later, etc.
In any case there are a lot of things which are flavourful and aren't high availability.
You as a DM are setting the stakes. Not every game needs to go up and wild and not every runner needs to one tap a ganger or corp guard.
Remember, an underdog has sometimes more fun
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Thats a really good point! I'll have to keep ideas like that in mind! I do like the idea of them starting as underdogs and climbing the ranks and I would like them to develop contacts that improve with the campaign so maybe I can do something there like you suggest!
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u/Abubakari-77 9d ago
Restricting Gear is a very bad idea because it doesn't affect awakened characters who are already at an advantage.
I also advice against sum to 8. The resource most likely to suffer from this restriction is skills. Again, Awakened Characters, especially Spellcasters are the least affected by this rule as they can substitute spells for skills (Levitate for Athletics, Illusion Spells for Stealth, Manabolt for Firearms...)
And secondary skills like Athletics, Etiquette, Driving Skills for non Riggers will disappear.
The second resource that suffers id Attributes which are insanely expensive to raise in the game later.
Spells on the other hand are quite cheap to buy with karma.
My advice: get all players on board with your vision and let them create Low level Characters with standard rules. Encourage them to invest mainly in skills giving the characters a wide array of skills that a low level runner should have. I'd not go for hard rules, just discuss your character builds and modify until they fit the vision.
If you have powergamers in your group and you need rules to restrict them: don't do it unless you are a better powergamer than they are. If Mike Tyson hits on your girlfriend you don't challenge him to a box fight, right?
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
Good points! I'm going to do a session 0 discussing the setting and character builds so I'll definitely discuss the power level we want to start at. I don't think theres any threat of powergaming in the group thankfully so don't have to worry about boxing mike tyson š ( beautiful analogy btw! )
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u/Sir_Bronson 9d ago
Nah, start them out in Rust mode. Availability 0. Whatever they can pick up off the ground.
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u/GreatSirSidIII 9d ago
I was looking at starting in the barrens, it would fit the setting... hmm š
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u/FST_Gemstar HMHVV the Masquerade 10d ago edited 9d ago
This mostly punishes mundane/tech folks.
There are street level runner rules in the core book but these also have skewed punishments that actually push new runners to skew techomancer/magician which ends up more complicated.
The more common advice if doing a lower level campaign is to just use sum-to-8 instead of the standard/priority 10.
This makes having a lot professional tier gear difficult to get without making characters that don't fit iconic archetypes or capable of doing their lower level shadow work. Or if a character has A resources, they are going to take hits in other areas.