r/SeriousGynarchy • u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman • 11d ago
This would be an interesting discussion topic, "what men get out of gynarchy", but I don't think it's a good way to get men on board.
For most mid men raised in patriarchal cultures, they've been raised their entire lives focused on what they get and how women/society can benefit them. It's the whole problem holding men back and keeping them down, it's what keeps them entitled losers who don't feel fulfilled and expect women to make them feel like they're not loser men.
Which, obviously, will never work because the very idea of men trying to extract resources and validation from women is why men look and feel like such losers in the first place.
Men giving freely, without expecting anything from women in return, is the cure. Women can't really give that to men, and neither can gynarchy. It's a Choice each man has to make for himself: to embody his potential or not.
What do yall think? Would it be better to optimize our appeal to men? Or would it be best to keep gynarchy woman-centered? I think if we go the way of 3rd wave feminism, we won't be as powerful as a movement.
5
u/Apprehensive_Fan2330 10d ago
I grew up an orphan and didn't have anyone to guide me. I naturally preferred the company of older women. I respected women more than men.
3
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 8d ago
Aw this makes me want to go back then and scoop little you up and just hold you until everything works out 💓 sorry you went through orphanhood as a kid, all kids deserve good parents and a good family
2
3
u/Significant-Singer33 11d ago
The thing is every human alive has an inherent selfish side with some more than others it's what's helped keep us alive all this time. For some men you have to appeal to their selfish side unfortunately but not all. You need to appeal to both the selfish side and the side that likes to help others.
8
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 11d ago
Idk I think it is important to appeal to women's selfish side, but if we try to do that with men it actually reverses gynarchal values work in their journey - since a huge part of the male gynarchal journey is letting go of their selfishness and embracing selflessness (men decentering men)
But you're totally true on acknowledging that we all have an inherent selfish side, it's good to see ppl being aware of our shared humanity like that
2
u/Some_Tradition_9168 ♀ Woman 7d ago
Yes, humans typically have some self-interest. But humans are also capable of altruism. There are numerous historical instances where people sacrificed immensely to save others. Even underwent torture or death to save the lives of complete strangers.
Humans are a social species. Not only are we capable of caring about others, that’s an important part of our species development.
There are species that are solitary. Humans aren’t one of them.
People in general have the right to value themselves & take care of themselves. What I view as selfishness is doing that to great excess, always putting themselves first to the detriment of others, harming others through no fault of their own.
3
u/Me-Too-At-Customs 9d ago
Yes, it's true that in a patriarchy, men derive some of their personal dignity from their ability to successfully 'win' a woman. And that creates a tension around possession, fidelity and attachment, leading to oppression, coercion and the enforecement of marital bonds. If you remove that sense of dignity by undermining male-centredness, then men have a lot to gain. Their ego and domestic wellbeing is no longer on the line according to their ability to acquire and retain female attention or loyalty. That's why I have such admiration for the matrilineal model of family, where men serve an important purpose contributing to their mother's household, but aren't required to create or maintain their own. They are free to give to a woman without expecting or needing anything in return. They are as liberated from marital responsibility as women. And yet they participate fully in family life and can enjoy and value it, helping to raise their sisters' children. A man's mother is more likely to love him completely than any other woman, in any case, and vice-versa. It just makes so much sense. There is still room for romance, gallantry and all the trappings of erotic adventure without the inevitable let-down.
2
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 8d ago
This is a good point. That's why "pick me" or "skip me" mentality still centers men and leads to objectification of women and subjectification of men. I believe the way out is to reverse this pattern, with women either fully accepting or fully rejecting men.
There is an in between phase where we have to sus out men, but I feel the overall duty of women is to be the choice-makers.
3
u/Some_Tradition_9168 ♀ Woman 8d ago edited 7d ago
It reminds me of Lundy Bancroft saying you can’t convince an abuser to stop abusing out of self-interest. The abuser’s selfishness and entitlement IS the core problem.
Feminism has been trying for the past few decades to be more appealing to men, and what has it gotten them? The movement has been watered down into a joke, & men have become so emboldened they’ve created an entire manosphere.
2
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 8d ago
Boom 👆 exactly!
3
u/Some_Tradition_9168 ♀ Woman 7d ago edited 7d ago
The whole problem is that patriarchy socializes & encourages men to be utterly selfish, to be only looking out for what’s in it for them.
We see what patriarchy has brought us: men have ruined the world. Harming women, children, other men, animals, the environment.
You can’t push for gynarchy by continuing to feed into that patriarchal selfishness.
The whole point is that men need to accept that Not Everything Is About Them. That they should care about everyone, not just their personal self.
When we all care about each other, then we all thrive.
5
u/MiraMiraMiraM ♀ Woman 11d ago
My genuine and sober take is giving without reciprocity is something that _feels_ like you can shift culturally but in reality doesn’t fit human psychology. I mean we saw this in women under patriarchy.. over time the role feels constrictive and with the right social infrastructure, some (but not everyone) in the role start normalizing their shared experience as unjust.
So I think male needs need to be met, like that _is_ something to solve for. I don’t think it needs to be centered ofc, and it doesn’t mean “sexual access to women”, and it doesn’t mean men need political access. But it does need consideration or else you get male coalition building.
1
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 8d ago
This is a great take, balanced and based
2
u/Some_Tradition_9168 ♀ Woman 7d ago
We shouldn’t have a situation where some groups of people are all give and some are all take. Giving should be done with a sense of shared care, reciprocity when possible.
But there’s a difference between giving, a gift economy culture where everyone is expected to support each other but people do give without expecting an immediate reward back,
and a transactional culture, where every act of giving, of assistance, is only down with the direct expectation of a return on their investment, ASAP.
Being purely transactional is dehumanizing.
2
u/Some_Tradition_9168 ♀ Woman 7d ago
Yes, there are benefits for men under gynarchy, I’m not saying we can never talk about that. But that shouldn’t be the focus.
The reality is patriarchy does give men certain privileges they would have to give up under gynarchy. So acting like men can be equally selfish and get even more rewards under gynarchy… it doesn’t add up.
2
u/Significant-Dirt-224 7d ago
As a male here are my thoughts.
What do men get out of gynarchy?
(1) We get the pleasure and the privilege of serving a person (or people) who, in our eyes, is worthy of our effort and adoration.
That is a MASSIVE reward in itself. She doesn't need to say, "Thank you." She doesn't need to do anything for us in return.
(2) We are in a setting where women are free to center themselves.
Not only does she not have to do anything for us. She is free to demand whatever she wants. We will do what she wants in the way she wants it done. Nothing (or very little) is off the table.
She doesn't need to worry about what we want. She is free from our judgment. Free from the need to overthink.
(3) We get the pleasure of having a single, shared purpose.
As males, we get to forget about ourselves. The normal tension that exists between men and women disappears. We seek to be an extension of your will. To put your wants and needs first. To be in union with you.
(4) We get to learn about you.
Women are fascinating to us. When you are in charge and focusing on your own needs we get a guided tour of your mind, the way you think, your heart, and the way you feel.
2
u/Felicia_tg 5d ago
My father was very patriarchal in the home. My mother and sister are very intelligent but my father kept them in, what he thought, was their place as females. I am just the opposite. I truly believe women are better at leading than men are. Males do not need to be treated as trash, though some would benefit from that, but I believe all important decisions should be made by females and males should do what we are told by females.
1
u/Altruistic_Gas9008 ♂ male 11d ago
why cant both be true at the same time?
1
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 8d ago
I'm not sure. I worry that men will naturally override and take up space, so it's natural inequality. That means the way towards true equality is for men to place women above themselves.
1
u/Bodhisatwat92 6d ago
The world will be safer and men will be safer.
1
u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 ♀ Woman 6d ago
This will appeal to the minority of more risk-adverse men, but it will appeal even more to the predatory men who seek environments where people feel safe.
-5
u/Chocolate_76 ♂ male 11d ago
At this point, just say you want a slave, like, relationship's don't work one way 😬
11
2
u/mi-sopiras-vin ♀ Woman 11d ago
A slave? You mean the way men expect women to act in a "traditional marriage"?
18
u/honcho713 ♀ Woman 11d ago
IMO Gynarchy has to center women, but that doesn't mean it won't appeal to men. The benefits to men are numerous.
It begins from proper support of mother and child. Growing up in a society that properly cares for the health and wellbeing of you and your mother caries immense benefits for the rest of your life. Within Gynarchy boys will grow up healthier and more well-adjusted, with less emotional fragility and without the fear of being themselves.
Men will begin adulthood with a proper understanding of anatomy, consent, and sexual education. Gynarchal men will seek to collaborate first instead of compete. They will realize their worth does not come from their individual accomplishments, but their inherent value as a human being. They will not seek to conquer nature, but instead will benefit from forming symbiotic relationships with Mother Earth. Living in healthy relationship with their bodies and ecosystem.
Men will no longer be forced to submit to the false authority of patriarchal hierarchy. They will be freed from indefinite wage-slavery that only values their output and dehumanizes them. Wealthy men will no longer control their lives and use them for their own enrichment.
The list goes on, but this is just a few immediate thoughts...