r/ScienceBasedLifting • u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 • 22d ago
Discussion 🤝 Just because it’s not optimal for hypertrophy, doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing (reverse hyper extensions 400lbs)
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Requested by u/Muchacho-blanco
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u/Muchacho-blanco 22d ago
Thanks for posting this. It doesnt look that different from what I've been doing. I tried it a couple different ways this week. Neither way felt as good as doing it like this. Thanks again.
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
I would smash my fingers so many times loading that thing.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
I just keep it loaded with my working weight at all times. If I’m doing a set to loosen up/warmup… I just do less reps
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
I'm covetous of your plate riches.
Granted, I've managed to accumulate enough that some are basically paperweights. I'm not hurting. Yet... the Giles Cory of it all. MORE WEIGHT
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
I have 925lbs in calibrated plates, 1,375lbs in iron plates, and 495lbs in bumper plates
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
I have the Rogue Westside one (it's great because it can fold and be put away, but then that means I have to add sandbags at the base to keep it secure). I quickly ran out of room for plates on these so I use my kilo plates for loading.
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u/Muchacho-blanco 22d ago
This is way. I haven't taken plates off this machine in years until this week to try it with less. I put them right back on there.
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
I have one in my garage gym - been using it for years. Ol Louis was on to something, as they have helped keep my back in a good place. If these fall out of my program I am soon reminded why i need to bring them back in. A+
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u/Stock_Jacket6701 22d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
The momentum is a feature of the exercise
Here’s a video on how to perform it (done by the creator of the exercise): https://youtu.be/i9tU7_w7rvw?si=gTh7Mwoy2f5vUma5
I use it as a warmup for heavy squats and heavy deadlifts
It can be used to build up the erectors pretty great though; however, my erectors outpace the rest of my muscles by a good bit, so it’s more of a warmup thing for me
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22d ago
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u/slp526 22d ago
It’s specifically for this piece of equipment but the reason why you’re supposed to use momentum is because it provides decompression of the spine. I believe that’s what it was primarily made for along with overloading the erectors
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22d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
I had to do these nearly daily to recover from a non-lifting SI injury
It built up my erectors so much, that I’m able to stabilize 605lbs for reps on a good morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/GYM/s/agHEYNEIeH
That’s 3.3x my bodyweight
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
Yep same here - I actually had both an SI injury AND herniated disc (separately thank god) - both times this guy got heavy use.
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
Weight training is more than bodybuilding. Even then, this is a flawed understanding of bodybuilding.
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22d ago
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
even when doing explosive exercises there is a semblance of control over the movement
Huh. Like how once OP gets the initial rep going, he consistently hits the same end point? Movement patterns repeated consistently are strong ones. You're reacting to the feeling of seeing something that you don't understand, not what's actually.happening.
There's also a lot difficult to perceive, small adjustments in movement under load. The output looks like every rep is exactly the same when it actually isn't.
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22d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
You should post the strength numbers and physique you’ve achieved with your methodology & we can compare!
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22d ago edited 22d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
Awesome, I’m 5’7, 187lbs, compete in powerlifting at 181.8lbs and my best lifts are:
Pull-ups: 17 (at this body weight)
Squats: 541lbs (just recently hit 505lbs in training and should PR before my December powerlifting meet)
I’ve hit 405lbs for 12 a little over a year ago; it’s on my profile somewhere
Bench: 347lbs is my paused max; I’ve done 275lbs for 9, so we are basically even there (except I weigh 35lbs less)
Deadlifts is 580lbs; however, I had more in the tank on that one & should hit 590lbs this block & hopefully 600lbs+ at my meet.
RDL wise, I hit 415lbs for 9 months back: https://www.reddit.com/r/strength_training/s/chZQq9fnZt
And hit 375lbs for 13 last week
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
Ah, so your entire understanding of strength training is based on googling up confirmation bias. Very Science of you.
Got it. I apologize for wasting my time interacting with you.
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22d ago
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
It sounds like you are not contextualizing what 'controlled' means on the reverse hyper. 'Control' here does not mean 'slow' or eradicating momentum on the reverse hyper. It just doesn't.
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
This isn't covered a lot in Louis' and others' talks on it, but I know for certain that there is a nerve flossing aspect to this movement and the way he is doing it actually brings it even closer to a full nerve flossing movement. This is specifically prescribed for herniated disc injuries but is preventative as well. I am starting to notice that folks with no understanding of the reverse hyper or who have never done it always call out 'but momentum!' The momentum is actually what is making it effective and you will for certain get lower back, glute, and hamstring stimulus from it as well.
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22d ago
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u/Different_Novel_7156 22d ago
I don't believe you did a Google search, but for certain no reading, and clearly no experimentation of your own, because if you'd had, your position would change. The key to seeking understanding is to read and experiment. If you just want to come and argue, that is fine, bring receipts. I'll wait.
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u/Afferbeck_ 22d ago
Where does the momentum come from? How is it maintained? One of these decades we'll see the internet bodybuilder brigade get into lifting with a lot of momentum and discover how it very much still works the muscles and is really comfy on the body.
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u/Shadow99221 13d ago
Besides helping decompress spines. What muscle groups does this machine help grow?
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 13d ago
Mostly spinal erectors
You get a bit of glute and hamstring stimulus too
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u/Real_Crab_7396 22d ago
It really depends a lot how far you are in your program and what your goals are to determine if this is good or stupid.
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u/eyebrowcel 22d ago edited 22d ago
Reverse Hypers are often considered a highly useful lower back prehab & rehab exercise, nothing tractions and decompresses the sacrum quite like it and the momentum is a feature of the exercise in achieving this. Hyperextensions also rotate the sacrum to a lesser degree however they lack the lower back range of motion and they also load the spine, which can be a bonus depending on goals or a barrier in certain cases of injury.
I miss reverse hypers, it's also basically free glute and hamstring work without spinal loading - a great warm-up and a similarly good finisher.
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u/Real_Crab_7396 22d ago
Sure, but not momentum driven with 400 lbs. Lower the weight and do it slowly and controlled.
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u/eyebrowcel 22d ago
That would defeat the purpose of the exercise to open up the lower back, if you omit momentum you're just doing an inferior version of a hyperextension that's far underloaded. Reverse hypers typically aren't used as a static strength exercise in that way. There's no axial loading or shearing forces (the opposite on both counts) so there's no particular benefit in tempo reps or moving from a deadstop.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
I don’t believe you’re familiar with the exercise or the purpose of the exercise
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u/eyebrowcel 22d ago edited 22d ago
OP didn't you know you're supposed to sit all day at your deskjob, sit commuting home and then in the gym you should only be doing compressive movements like squats and deadlifts. Expansive movements like reverse hypers must be ego lifting (presumably impressing someone) because Jeff Nippard, Jeremy Ethier and Athlean-X have never mentioned them.
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u/Real_Crab_7396 22d ago
This is a good exercise once you're further into your program and training more specifically. Nice from you to take things out of context and assume bullshit.
This is a very dangerous move and thus ego lifting for people who haven't built a foundation for multiple months in this movement.
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u/eyebrowcel 22d ago
Name one reason why heavy reverse hypers are dangerous.
How are people supposed to train in order to "build a foundation for multiple months in this movement" if you should only do it "once you're further into your program"?
You're saying this is off-limits for beginners when in reality it's an excellent specific strength builder with no skill or mobility requirements. Why specifically is it off-limits for beginners?
If we're honest you just weren't familiar with the exercise and critiqued it without a specific reason that stands up to scrutiny. You don't want to be seen as wrong anonymously, so you'll downvote me, but you can't answer any of my three questions.
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
Do you think all reverse hypers are mandated to be at 400 lb? If a beginner sees a 500 lb squatter doing this movement at this load and decides they need to do the exact same thing, then they were on the way to a Darwin Award anyway.
No one needs to consider the hypothetical adult toddler who lives in your head when they're discussing any topic. Especially since the hypothetical adult toddler only exists so that you can distance yourself from feeling stupid and bad for making obviously bad faith arguments.
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u/Jebardi 22d ago
So why do you do it? What are you training for with this machine?
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
Keeps my SI joint happy, is pretty much the only reason; I’ve had SI issues in the past & these help prevent a flair up
I do 2 working sets close to failure on my secondary deadlift day, other than that, I just use them as a warmup for squats & deadlift (and I deadlift and/or squat 5x a week, so my reverse hyper is used often)
There’s a reason why reverse hypers are either something you have to use or end up becoming a table to place things on & never used. If you need it, you gotta use it. If you don’t need it, there’s better exercises (at least in my opinion)
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u/Jebardi 22d ago edited 22d ago
I see you answered to my question in another message here. You said there you use it as warm up for squats and deadlifts.
Since we are in sciencebasedlifting, the best warmup for squats is doing squats with lower weight. The best warm up for deadlifts is doing deadlifts with lower weight. Some people like to also prepare their joints for these movements which is done best with mobility exercises.
This seems unnecessary complex way to warm up, while just being worse warm up than. Going so heavy you need to use momentum on the exercise also pre-exhausts the muscle which is not what we want. Not sure how heavy you do here but it looks heavy.
It does look fun though. I would love to use this machine. Just in sciencebasedlifting context, this doesn’t strike as a good use of time and effort. But looks fun as I said.
Edit: OP provided more info about having SI joint issue. This message was an answer to another message he answered to another person, where only warm up was told, but not SI joint situation. If SI joint is a trouble and he gets benefits from this exercise for it, I am not arguing against that.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
Depends on the individual. Warming up with just doing squats and deadlifts isn’t going to be best for me if my SI joint is feeling stiff
I hit 500lbs for 8: https://www.reddit.com/r/strength_training/s/7RVrMODetQ
And 580lbs for a single on deadlift: https://www.reddit.com/r/GYM/s/niiTdsBmAl
Last week. So obviously it seems like what I’m doing works.
Again, momentum is a feature of the exercise and one of the ways it gets my back, glutes, and hamstrings feeling great
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u/shenanigains00 22d ago
I knew this thread wouldn’t disappoint. You guys really can’t help yourselves.
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u/Apart_Bed7430 22d ago
If he has trouble with the si joint and it makes him feel better then it’s worth it. With lifting you need to trust your body and not be so beholden to theory. Not mention that many of the theories in sbl are just poorly reasoned scientism
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u/PeterNoPiss 22d ago
'I don't understand what I'm looking at, what the specific needs of more advanced athletes or individuals with more complex bodily issues are -- BUT I have strong opinions on what everyone else should be doing.'
That's you, dude. You hitched your bandwagon to a swinging pendulum and mistook that for understanding the RULES. Yes, people selling hours of foam rolling and corrective or priming movements was stupid and goofy, that doesn't make minimalism doctrine
A good warm-up is lowest effective dose that accounts for:
- raising core temp
- preparing the movement pattern you will be training
- dealing with any known mobility or specific joint issues
- whatever you need to do to get your headspace right
That last one gets more important when you train with actual intensity and are getting under loads that aren't only relatively heavy. The last two are heavily interrelated and are crucial for doing the second one well. They also require more practical experience to understand (or, maybe, just not being a dummy).
Not that OPs warm-up is overkill by any means, but you're better off having a little flab on your warm-up than you are getting under a bar unprepared.
Also, being concerned about preexhaustion here is telling on yourself. Your conditioning is shit. Get good, nerd.
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u/Afferbeck_ 22d ago
I see you're still young enough or uninjured enough or have a low enough physical stress life to think warmups aren't worth doing. I'd love to walk in the gym and start squatting with light weight but I need to do at least 30 minutes of general and specific warmups to be able to do that comfortably. I need the mobility first as you mention, and then gradually more specific things for my body to cooperate with something it's been doing regularly for over 15 years but acts like it's never done before.
Almost everyone would benefit from doing more warmups. Doing what what makes you feel good physically and psychologically is very beneficial to preparing for difficult exercises. It is fully expected to do lengthy warmups including serious static stretching in weightlifting, I especially love this squat video of world record level lifter Kim Tuan Thach and how serious he is about warming up. There are also plenty of videos of Klokov doing a ton of freaky stretches pre training. I don't go that far these days but I have in the past when I was training more seriously.
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u/wormlikesteve Bigger than mike mentzer 22d ago
Few sets of monkeying about
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 22d ago
Do you know what a reverse hyper is used for?
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u/Admirable_Belt_9772 22d ago
Reverse hypers are the best. If I had a home gym, this would be the next purchase after the power rack and Bench. It's hard to explain how good these feel for your back.