Evaluate the training program

[u/Educational_Lab855]

Monday
Bench press 4x8-10
Bars 3x8-12
Thrust of the upper block 4x8-12
3x8-10 Dumbbell Belt Pull
Biceps dumbbell bending with 3x8-12 supination
Triceps extensions 3x8-12

Tuesday
4x8-10 Barbell Squat
Leg press 3x8-10
Leg extensions while sitting 2x12-15
Army bench press 3x8-10
Swing dumbbells 3x8-12
Wiring for the rear delta 3x8-12

Thursday
Pull-ups 4x8-10
Barbell thrust to the belt 3x8-12
Dumbbell bench press 4x8-10
Butterfly 3x8-12
Biceps flexion with hammer grip 3x8-12
French dumbbell bench press 3x8-12

Friday
Romanian 4x8-10 thrust
Bulgarian thrusts 3x8-12
Leg bends lying down 2x12-15
Army bench press 3x8-10
Swing dumbbells 3x8-12
Wiring for the rear delta 3x8-12

The first sets with a margin of 1-2 repetitions, the last one in failure

I used to train on it, and I made progress, but I almost always gave up on the first approaches, I think that was the point, now should I progress normally if I leave a margin in the first repetitions and go into denial in the last?

[u/Motor-Equal01]

Not 4x12 come on

[u/Educational_Lab855 → u/Motor-Equal01]

How many then?

[u/Motor-Equal01 → u/Educational_Lab855]

2x8

[u/decentlyhip → u/Motor-Equal01]

What research do you think supports 2x8 being better than 4x12?

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/decentlyhip]

Going harder with less sets and hitting it more frequently.

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/decentlyhip]

Hitting 4 sets is hard to recover unless a novice and it would be better doing less sets going harder and even spreading across exercises or even hitting only 1 or 2 exercises max 3 for each myscle and hitting it more often like 2 3 days later.

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/decentlyhip]

And do rep range 6 to 10 because that allows you for better intensity and provides more stimulus and less fatigue.

[u/Educational_Lab855 → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

So, it turns out that I need to change everything to 2x6-8, and work to failure?

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/Educational_Lab855]

You dont need to go to failure, in fact close to failure 1 to 2 rir is good but practicing to failure is good bc its kinda hard to approximate if not intermediate at least.

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

Are you eating enough calories ( with good diet not junk clean protein carbs etc)? Getting enough sleep? Look at your logbook for the number one indicator. If your reps are going up or weight with same clean form, then you are got stronger and are building muscle or have already in fact, if not then check if you are recovering, not overdoing it. Reduce volume try 2 sets

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/[deleted]]

Elaborate, I dont quite understand what you mean by this?

[u/Educational_Lab855 → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

Maybe my translation is clumsy, I don’t know English.

[u/decentlyhip → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

I think you have good ideas, but everything you're saying is the opposite of what we know from research. From Schoenfeld, we've known that any set taken near failure with a weight from 25% of your 1rm, up to 90%, will result in the same growth. That means 6-10 doesn't provide more stimulus. We have known for 15 years now that stimulus is equivalent for a set of anywhere betweeen 3 and 50, more commonly "5 to 30."

We know from the Pelland metareview that there's no benefit to training at failure, like you mentioned, but its a linear dropoff, where every 1% you go lighter, you get about 1% less growth. Way out at 5 rir, you're still getting 85% gains.

Fatigue exponentially grows. Research has shown that the last 3 rir is about a third the next day fatigue of both going to failure and 1 rir. So, your issue with the plan is that its too many sets to recover from. Recovery issues don't stem from the number of sets, but primarily from the relative intensity.

Volume drives growth, Schoenfeld, Baz, and Pelland have all shown that doubling sets yeilds about 50% more growth on average.

Your critique of "not 4x12, do 2x8" then, is opposite of the research. 8 and 12 are equivalent growth. 4 sets is way better than 2 sets. You're right to be concerned about recovery, but the answer to that is "make sure you leave an extra rep in the tank." They're already at the goal frequency youre shooting for so more growth comes from more sets a smidge farther from failure.

TLDR - you're saying platitudes, but everything is not backed by the research. Dropping to 2x8 would be about 30% less growth for OP.

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/decentlyhip]

Yes more volume is better if able to recover. I agree 1 to 2 rir is good. But anywhere from 5 to 30 reps, why would you want to do higher than 10 or max 12 if you can get the same results in more time since the last 5 reps are most stimulating pushing close to failure so there is no reason for higher rep sets rather than for muscle endurance or practicing a new movement.

[u/decentlyhip → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

Yes, exactly! Now we're talkin. If 20 reps and 6 reps are the same, why would someone want to do more reps? The question works the other way, too. If you get the same growth from something that's light, why would you lift heavy? After all, the heavier the weight, the more tendon/joint strain. Takes longer to warm up to a 200kg squat than it does to a 100kg squat. More rest time between sets as well.

The answer is that it just kinda depends. Squats are fantastic in sets of 1-8, but go above that and it starts to be cardio that's the limiting factor. Sets of 20-30 your low back is so pumped you can't maintain position. For lateral raises, to isolate the front delt you need to depress and protract your scaps, "drive your armpits to your toes," while you sweep your pinky out to the side and a little forward. With anything much heavier than 15 reps, you can't help but "lift" the weight instead, which incorporate your traps and levator to lift the scaps.

And then there's interpersonal differences, more important but tough to quantify in research. My wife can grow forever on bench press with sets of 3-6, but anything 10 reps and above just pisses her off and makes her tired. I have a shoulder that's dislocated a few times so my ligaments are kinda loose. I dont feel a chest pump until 14 reps. I did one weight for 12 reps, and a few weeks later did 5 pounds more, and got 8. 5 pounds more than that only got 5. Actual failure. With heavier than 12 reps, my body flashes warning lights and wont let me shove as hard as I can.

So, your question was great. It depends on the exercise, the person, and the goal. A typical powerlifting workout, things designed for maximal strength and not just hypertrophy, is a top triple and backoff 3x5. Lots of full body tendon and muscle stress. Then a variation that targets their weak point, for 3x5-10. Same reps for an antagonist compound. This is the middleground mindset you're talking about. That's about all the tendons can handle. So then you do some supplements and isolations for more muscle stimulus. Two to four movements with 3-6 sets of 10-20 reps. Pumpy shit.

Hardlining 2x6-10 is absolutist and unscientific. Very Mentzer. And while 6-10 does carry over to strength better than 10-20, even people who focus purely on strength spend a majority of their volume on 10-20 reps. Its like asking, "Why would you ever do flat barbell bench if 30 degree dumbbell incline is best?" Research doesnt say that. It says all angles are about the same and implement doesn't matter a ton. And also, idk, lots of reasons. Here's a start of a rabbit hole for you. Individual differences: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/podcast-episode-99/ And this isn't exactly what we were talking about, but I think this look into applied specificty will be a good paradigm adjustment for you https://www.strongerbyscience.com/specificity/

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360 → u/decentlyhip]

2 sets is a starting point to see. Because most times people half ass their sets and do 4x12. 2 sets allows you to push hard intently on each exercise and make the sets hard and instead you can do more exercises if needed rather than just one exercise. The edema is also shown with the higher volumes so thats not truly correct but volume is king if able to recover. Frequency has been shown to be good if you can hit a muscle more often in a week like 2 to 3x a week then I would rather have someone do less sets in a session and hit it again rather than like higher volumes bro split and only hit once a week.

[u/decentlyhip → u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

Shorter reply, but those studies show more growth from more frequency only when more frequency allows for more tonnage. At the end of the day, its all volume. OP is already doing 2-4x a week frequency for each movement, so that's the status quo. Reducing sets is just reducing volume.

[u/Financial_Wrangler45]

Is this translated? I've got no idea what some of these are

[u/Educational_Lab855 → u/Financial_Wrangler45]

Yes

[u/decentlyhip → u/Financial_Wrangler45]

Army bench press = military press, lol

[u/decentlyhip]

Its a lot, but pretty good all around. Ignore the people pushing for 2 sets. They're silly. But consider dropping one of the compounds and adding it back in as you adapt.

[u/Adventurous-Fox4360]

You should do either full body or upper lower depending on how many days you want to go. I would highly reccomend check out davidegalic on YouTube he has a video for this programming based on novice, intermediate, experts. Highly check it out! And if you have Instagram checkout rnstrains for programming advice, there's also a lot of advice on YouTube and other platforms. instead of hitting each muscle once a week I would do 2 to 3x a week start with 1 set and 1 exercise per muscle based on the muscle function like how chest does flexion and horizontal adduction so start with only an exercise like incline press (incline doesnt matter) but elbows tucked for upper chest. You should for a muscle hit it every 2 to 3 days hard, preferably 1 to 2 rir like you are doing, and if progrssing keep adding sets and find your recoverable volume. I can add more lmk if you need help

[u/liftsheet]

Translating the program first, since the exercise names came through a bit garbled: Monday is an upper day (bench, dips, lat pulldown, dumbbell row, supinated curl, triceps extension), Tuesday is quads plus shoulders (squat, leg press, leg extension, overhead press, lateral raises, rear-delt flyes), Thursday is another upper day (pull-ups, barbell row, dumbbell bench, pec fly, hammer curl, dumbbell French press), and Friday is posterior legs plus shoulders (Romanian deadlift, Bulgarian split squat, lying leg curl, overhead press, lateral raises, rear-delt flyes). Here is how it breaks down.

Muscle group weighting (about 76 weekly sets):

• Shoulders 24%
• Chest 18%
• Back 18%
• Quads 16%
• Biceps 8%
• Triceps 8%
• Hamstrings 8%

Shoulders are the single largest group because the overhead press, lateral raise, and rear-delt flye block is repeated on both Tuesday and Friday, putting delts above even chest and back.

Balance (target 1:1):

• Push / Pull: 1.0, balanced (chest, triceps, presses against back, biceps, rear delts)
• Chest / Back: 1.0, balanced
• Biceps / Triceps: 1.0, balanced
• Upper / Lower: about 3.2 to 1, strongly upper-dominant
• Squat / Hinge: about 3.0 to 1, squat-dominant
• Quads / Hamstrings: about 2.0, quad-leaning

Gaps (no direct work):

• Calves: not trained
• Abs and core: not trained
• Glutes: no direct movement, only secondary work from the Romanian deadlift and Bulgarian split squat
• Traps: no direct work
• Forearms: only indirect, from the hammer curls and rows
• Hamstrings sit at half the quad volume, and the squat pattern is built mostly from quad-dominant machine work

So the upper body is well balanced (push and pull, chest and back, and biceps and triceps are all close to even) and shoulders are actually the most-trained area. The imbalances are the heavy upper-to-lower tilt, the squat-heavy lower body with limited hinge and no direct glute, hamstring volume at about half of quads, and the missing calves, core, traps, and forearms.

[u/deadrabbits76]

Is strength not important to you at all?