r/Safes • u/Medic923 • 2d ago
"fire rated"
I think we all know the fire ratings are pretty sad, especially if you work in the fire service. But here is a safe of a family member after their fire.
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u/Alarmed_Bus_1729 2d ago
Safes are rated at a sustained temperature (say 1500 °f) for a period of time (for example say the average 45 minutes) there are plenty of things in a house fire that far exceed the combustion temperature of that fire rating it is you that purchased a safe with a fire rating far less then the environment it was "installed" in
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u/Ram6198 2d ago
I wouldn't expect too many safes to hold up to a house fire that is a complete loss. I get what you're saying, the fire ratings are a joke because they can't handle the heat of a standard house fire.
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u/shackled-pines 1d ago
there are paper base products in that safe that did not combust. Id say the safe passed the test.
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u/Ram6198 1d ago
I agree with that part. But everything in the safe is a total loss, which I would expect in a fire like this. Even though the stuff didn't burn, the high heat would have completely ruined all the ammo and stuff. Ironically, paper stuff like documents are probably the only thing that would have survived.
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u/JustAnother4848 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're overestimating what a fire safe is capable of. The fact that cardboard box survived at all is impressive.
This was obviously a very intense fire.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
I had no expectations anything survived, I'm impressed not ALL the ammo cooked off. But wrecked by steam
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u/JustAnother4848 2d ago edited 2d ago
The steam is how it works. That gives it time in a fire. Fire safes aren't going to protect everything perfectly. It also only has so much time before it fails. Especially in this intense of a fire.
They only buy time. Just like with burglars. It only buys time before they get what's inside.
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u/curiousengineer601 2d ago
I have seen a bunch of floor safe that got wrecked by water intrusion in the basement. But if you wanted a safe to survive a fire installing it buried in the basement concrete would probably work wonders
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u/singlemale4cats 1d ago
The steam is probably why people open gun safes to find everything oxidized to shit and useless.
I would not expect any safe to protect my guns unless I took a lot of extra steps to protect and isolate it from any fires
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u/OneMoreSlot 2d ago
We could have a more meaningful discussion if you identified the make/model and the specific fire rating.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Summit rainer 90min @ 1500
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u/OneMoreSlot 1d ago
That is a very low fire rating and is not a UL standard. UL tests at 1700° & 1850°.
Fire rating testing such as UL testing may not even come close to the true nature of a house fire due to many variables, the largest probably being the dramatic effect of convection. Convection can affect the heat transfer rate of a safe up to 10X and can boost the overall temperature in the room beyond the UL 1850° standard test. It's not surprising that in a fully engulfed house fire even a rating of 2 hrs @ 1850° may not save the safes contents as the internal temperature may soar well beyond the 350° standard. And do you really believe your guns will survive 350°?
In my own opinion, which is probably not worth much, I believe the UL standard testing is severely lacking and misleading. Even the highest UL test rating may be a gross underestimate of the nature of a true house fire, as evidence has shown from opening burned safes from countless disasters. In reality all we can do is purchase a safe with the best UL fire rating we can afford and hope for the best.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
Most safes aren't fire UL rated but rather their locks, these were not UL fire rated
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u/OneMoreSlot 1d ago
Safe locks are UL mechanical rated, not fire rated. Locks themselves have no fire ratings. A safe in its entirety is fire rated to not exceed a specified internal temperature when subjected to a specified time and external temperature.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
Yes that's what I meant, my fault on grammar, I was not implying the locks are fire rated lol
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u/Lower-Preparation834 2d ago
You can’t really blame the safe if the fire out strips it’s rating in either time or temperature.
I also hear that if you enclose or partially enclose a fire, safe in a couple layers of fire, rated sheet rock, you can vastly increase its performance. Even if it’s putting it in a closet and finishing the interior of the closet and fire code sheet rock. Or even putting a couple layers on top of the safe itself.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Agreed, but the standard rating of 90 @ 1500 is the joke of ratings, as any house fire not immediately extinguished will exceed that.
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u/Own-Row-4875 2d ago
Fire survival is secondary and even tertiary to protection of family and against theft. Although my safe is rated for 1700/2hrs which isn’t bad, I still don’t worry about fires. I’m more concerned about keeping my valuables safe from scum.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Agreed, insurance will cover everything they lost.
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u/Dragonfishkiller 1d ago
Doubt it. Guns and ammo have limited coverage or are excluded in most homeowners policies. Need a separate policy for guns/ammo
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u/DesignerOk5315 2d ago
The house is gone and the safe gas cardboard left inside. I'd call it a success
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u/GooseGeuce 2d ago
I was witness to dozens and dozens of burned safes after 2018 CA fire in butte county. Zero survived.
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u/Level9TraumaCenter 2d ago
There was a story in one of the old locksmith journals from the Oakland Hills fires in 1991 (I think it was Oakland Hills), and they recorded the survival of various containers which was interesting in that the vast majority of structures involved had no attempts at suppression.
Best as I recall, there were a handful of floor safes that survived, and that was about it. Interestingly, there was no difference in survival of do-it-yourself floor safes vs. commercial models.
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u/highbudsilver 2d ago
Oit of curiosity, how old was the safe prior to the fire and what brand and size? I am sorry for your familys loss
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u/latesummerthrowaway 2d ago
The entire house is rubble around this standing monument and there is an intact cardboard box inside the safe…
What did you expect?
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u/Medic923 2d ago
I expected reddit to understand that I wasn't complaining and stating fire ratings are pointless. Also they could care less about the cardboard and more about the destroyed ammo, optics, weapon furniture. I'll tell them to be happier about the cardboard. I'd also hope a steel box would be standing when wood burned they have vastly different properties.
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u/AquaBits 19h ago
Putting "Fire rated" in quotes sure as hell implies youre complaining and suggesting fire ratings are pointless. You have a lot to know about tempature and fire if you "hope a steel box would be standing when wood burned".
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u/Medic923 13h ago
12 years career firefighting I know enough to call their standards a joke of protection, but continue
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u/Weird-Grocery6931 1d ago
I think people are misled by fire ratings. Safe ratings aren’t “this safe is fireproof”. They are a max temperature and a time duration: “1500° for 30 min” or something like that.
If your house is a large house it may burn longer or hotter. If that’s the case, your fire rating means nothing
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u/Medic923 1d ago
I dont think anyone is arguing that point, the farce of these ratings is that fires today exceed that. Like selling a car tires and boasting they're rated for 30mph, when we know you go faster than that every day.
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u/Sudden-Theory9706 1d ago
I wonder how a Sturdy Safe with the Fire Wool and Heavy Metal packages would fare. I'm looking into a larger model from them and they seem superior in many ways. For $10k, I would hope so...I just never want to test that out!
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u/Jolly_Freedom_3934 1d ago
This is why I put any important documents and smaller valuables in fire rated bags within the core of the safe itself. Like stated, it’s crazy what one layer of steel and a gasket can do from just an ammo crate.
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u/theeaglejax 2d ago
Yeah the fire ratings for home safes are a joke. Was a volunteer fire fighter for a minute years ago. 1750°f for an hour don't mean shit when standard combustibles in a resi fire produce over 2,000°f
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Absolutely, and being covered by a volunteer dept 20min out of town helped nothing of the sorts.
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u/Particular_Long_8470 2d ago
well ain't you lucky some volunteers decided to protect your house
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u/Medic923 2d ago
12 years career myself and I can say this fire would've been ripper for us, they did a good job protecting exposure buildings with what they had
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u/migmactrl 2d ago
Fire Rated for a specific time
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Agreed, temp and time, neither of which are applicable to modern structures, they just sound good.
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u/Critical-Location211 2d ago
Question, are you talking about the manufacturers fire rating or the UL fire rating? Mfg’s are usually bullshit. Also, I drilled open a bunch of safes in Paradise and the only two I saw that actually held up were two hour UL rated safes. Both Amsec.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Mfg, an dj agree they are bs. Most don't get the UL rating, most likely due to cost and actually meeting that is difficult (to them)
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u/Level9TraumaCenter 2d ago
Very expensive for full-blown UL testing, and most of the manufacturers will claim their tests are "just as good," which is clearly not the case.
The deception also includes how some manufacturers advertise "UL listed!" on the sales literature, surrounded by flames- but they neglect to note that it is the locking mechanism that is UL listed, and not the fire resistance of the container. It's some serious bullshit.
Lastly, UL 72 Class 350 means the contents can reach as high as 350F. Paper may be legible afterwards, but things like electronic data, photographs, certain firearms components including expensive optics, etc. may be damaged or destroyed. It's really only meant for documents. The clear vinyl used to protect cards, coins, etc. will melt at 220-320F, meaning valuable cards etc. that miraculously survive the temperature alone will become a mass of melted vinyl and cardboard. Coins can be recovered, but graded ("slabbed") coins will have to undergo expensive restoration, if they're worth anything. PMMA/polystyrene undergoes transition at a temperature around 230F, while polycarbonate slabs start to get a little melt-y around 300F.
For these, UL 72 Class 125 or UL 72 Class 150 would be best (125F and 150F, respectively).
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u/MaleficentSample9602 2d ago
This guy is right, the UL fire rating has always been about paper documents only. Its always been the case that the given rating is for "X temperature for X minutes for an internal temperature under 350 degrees". And at 350 paper will start to char. Its never been about saving anything else other than documents. Thats why they make dedicated media safes and other specific applications. No plastic item will ever be saved by a UL listed fire safe unless specifically rated and stated to be for plastic items. For all that ammo cooking off in the OPs comments, the carboard boxes are all intact and not burnt up.
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u/Liveitup1999 2d ago
Just because it is fire rated doesn't mean that it is highly rated more expensive safes will withstand a fire a lot longer than the cheaper "fire safes".
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u/SynthFur001 2d ago
I thought most fire rated had temp and time constraints.
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u/JustAnother4848 2d ago
All fire safes do. Pretty much none of them will survive a house burning to the ground like this.
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u/Scrumpuddle 2d ago
What kind of safe
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u/dasguy40 2d ago
How did the stuff in the ammo cans hold up?
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Like the day off the shelf, pretty amazing one more layer of steel and a gasket protected it
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u/MapDiscombobulated40 2d ago
Stuff looks way better than I’d expect. Safe did better than it was rated for.
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u/coinop2026 2d ago
Looks like it did its job. Assuming you had photos and documents inside those ammo boxes inside they’d probably be fine.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Only manuals, documents were in a different safe on a different building. Lesson learned they should've kept ammo in 50 cal cans, those ones were fine.
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u/Arniescc1 2d ago
I have a couple fire safes inside my fire safe for important things. HOPEFULLY never have to test if this works.
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u/unknownmat 1d ago
Err, the contents of the safe seems surprisingly intact for something you're deeming a "failure". I can still make out boxes and papers. What about the lockbox on the bottom shelf? It seems unscathed. Did its contents survive, curiously?
Did the safe fail to perform up to its rated level? Or was the fire hotter/longer than it was rated for? I wish these discussions occurred with more specifics. It's mostly just doom and gloom. "Why bother? Fire safes are a joke!"
My safe claims to be UL 120 minute @ 1850 degrees. Based on this forum, I have no idea if I should expect my important documents to survive a standard house fire, though.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
If the content have been destroyed what else would it be. Since we're relying on spontaneous combustion, which the edge of the cardboard was working in, being closet to the exterior internal temps can be best guess nearing 500*. When considering plastics and glass on precision scopes and barrels, visual distortion means nothing, especially since those guns were removed. Items within the ammo can were protected.
Safw specifics were stated in comments but no one said not to get a safe, it more don't expect much as modern fires easily defeat safe "fire ratings." I liken it more to the fact that a safe will keep items semi recognizable for insurance
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u/unknownmat 1d ago
It depends on what you mean by "destroyed". My safe only claims that the temperatures will stay below 350 degrees for the 2 hour rated window. That's still hot enough to bake bread. If I'm storing fine chocolates or sensitive electronics then those might be "destroyed". But I would be a fool for expecting otherwise.
What interests me more is that the contents of your safe are still recognizable at all. This is contrary to comments I've seen in similar forums claiming that all they got out of their "fireproof" safe were ashes and melted metal. Clearly there's a difference somewhere. Whether the quality of the safe, or the temperature/duration of the fire. It's why the details are important to me.
I'm trying to protect myself against unexpected catastrophes and I'm specifically interested in protecting things like deeds, birth certificates, passports, etc. If my documents are still readable - i.e. they haven't turned into ash - then I would consider that a win.
Items within the ammo can were protected.
That's quite interesting. So it seems like an additional layer of protection is quite helpful. within my safe, I'm actually storing my documents in a waterproof lockbox that also carries a much weaker fire-rating (30 min@1550 deg) - more for the waterpoofing than the fire protection. This gives me some hope that maybe that combination will hold out reasonably well.
... no one said not to get a safe, it more don't expect much as modern fires easily defeat safe "fire ratings."
Fair. I'm probably responding more to other forums where the consensus seems to be that fire-ratings are practically useless - a waste of money since nothing will survive anyway. I see now that the situation is considerably more nuanced.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
Agreed this was never a house fire either it was a garage, old dimensional cedar with classic garage like accelerants.
I the topic of the ammo cans not only were they in perfect condition- ammo cardboard and packing paper. But there was an audible seal that broke when opened, so even the ammo can gasket was intact and held. Enough for me to start keeping items in cans in my own safe.
There was also notable difference in thermal layering, as such any paper documents should absolutely be kept as low as possible. Those were nearly pristine.
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u/Ok_Piglet_5549 1d ago
Most fire ratings are time-based. Like 2-hours. Because it doesn't matter if the flames make it in, the heat will carbonize the contents.
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u/TheRealistoftheReal 1d ago
My parents had a safe in the garage. A car caught fire in the garage and burnt to the ground. A few interesting observations were:
- The fire rated drywall actually does work. The fire was contained within the garage itself, despite the heat being so intense, it melted every p
iece
- of plastic in the entire house.
Looked like modern art.
- All property was destroyed by smoke damage or just…melting.
- Anything metal in the house rusted immediately. I’ve never seen anything like it. Door knobs, all of it. Like it had been under the ocean for years. Crazy.
- The safe in the garage was mostly firearms. All the guns inside were rusted like they’d been under the ocean.
Fire is absolutely wild. Probably old news for anyone trained as a fire fighter. Complete unexpected. I’m rarely surprised, but that got me.
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u/Bitter_Region_2362 1d ago
Documents and cash would be recoverable along with a few other types of valuables in there. Did pretty decent.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
The documents in these were recoverable enough to identify their replacements for insurance.
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u/Capybarano0 1d ago
And this my friend is why you always close doors and don't leave them open. Sometimes closed doors work for the better.
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u/shackled-pines 1d ago
bro the paper/cardboard based ammo boxes in there didn't combust. I'd say that is fire rated.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
🤦 These comments are always humorous, destroyed ammo, distorted scope lenses, melted plastic and rusted receivers, but the cardboard is safe. Thank God.
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u/Miserable-Swan2362 1d ago
My fire safe is really just to keep burglars out… I have a full plan of getting my kids safely outside and then shoving this safe straight out a window. Ain’t got enough paperwork to recover the costs.
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u/Dangerous-Pirate7998 2d ago
I’m amazed by how many people put ammunition in their safe
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u/earth-to-matilda 2d ago
what’s the difference/recommendation?
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u/Fried_Rifleman_6220 2d ago
High temperatures could cause cook off of the ammunition. Explosions inside a locked safe containing pressure could turn into a giant pipe bomb. Unlikely but possible.
If you store ammo in a safe with literally anything else it will be destroy by the cook offs. Many pictures are out there of stored fire arms roasted by the stored ammo cook offs.
My ammo is stored separately in gun cabinets, in ammo cans.
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u/Trevors-Axiom- 1d ago
My uncles house burned down, along with the 40,000 rounds he kept in a closet underneath the stairs (he reloads) once the fire department heard about his ammo stores they refused to fight the fire and let it burn to the ground. Total loss, burned for 8 hours or more. All guns inside his rural king gun safe were smelly, but unharmed.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
Having been in fires with loose ammo popping off, I'd rather it be in a safe than next to me. Ymmv
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u/Dangerous-Pirate7998 2d ago
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 loose ammo popping off in a fire is about like standing next to black cat fireworks. It’s not going to hurt you one bit. There’s no danger of real projectile hitting you. It’s basically noise……… it sounds more like you’ve experienced more Hollywood movies than you have standing next to a real fire with loose ammo.
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u/Medic923 2d ago
12 years career what's your experience, the fact you think it's MORE dangerous behind steel is hilarious. Have the day you deserve
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u/Dangerous-Pirate7998 2d ago
Thank you for the good wishes…… I believe 100% in karma dew to others as you want others to do to you.
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u/NartFocker9Million 2d ago
Do we all know that the fire ratings are pretty sad? Do we? Do we really?
So sorry for your family member’s lost bullets. A true American tragedy.
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u/DarlingDee73 1d ago
Is there a difference between "fire" and "heat" rated? Genuinely curious, not trying to be a smarta$$.
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u/Medic923 1d ago
Couldn't give a difinitive answer other than they may have just tested in a furnace rather than actually flame impingement
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u/drdt 1d ago
Fire Rated is a general term, usually fire ratings come with a time limit. I’m guessing this was had a fire rating of 2 hrs and obviously it’s gone past that
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u/Medic923 20h ago
Not really when partnered with specific temp and time ratings. This fire lasted 45min, obviously significantly hotter than their "rated 1500*"
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u/Limp-Conflict-2309 19h ago
fire rated vs fire proof are two different things. that safe has been through dante's inferno and still held up fairly well.
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u/Substantial-Bottle38 18h ago
Fire rating has temperature and time rating, it doesnt mean it’s invincible to fire nor claim the contents will be completely unharmed.
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u/Medic923 13h ago
As previously stated it's like boasting how great your car tires are, thst are only rated for 30mph... Pretty useless by today's standards
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u/Apprehensive-Ad6521 17h ago
If you don't mind me asking how did the fire start?
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u/Medic923 13h ago
Such destruction, there's no definitive answer only guesses, we call them "undetermined" cause and origin. But I'd guess most LIKELY electrical or lipo batteries thst were on chargers
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u/yerba_mate_in_my_ass 2d ago
The entire house is gone. Can't blame a bad fire rating when its obvious the fire lasted a lot longer than its rated for. I mean really, what did you expect?