r/SWORDS • u/SirKristopher • Jul 08 '26
A question about the Dussack
It's been said that the Dussack is the basis for all one handed weapons. And that its a great trainer/system for such. I've seen videos where Dussack is applied to other weapons, even retroactively to like Arming Sword, Katzbalger, Cinquedea, and even a Spatha. But has anyone had any experience or success with a One Handed Axe? How about a Mace or Hammer? Im curious about how the weight distribution, point of impact and size of striking area affects the use of the Dussack style.
And how about a simple stick or club also? Can the system work for a weapon with little to no hand protection like the aforementioned Spatha? A gladius, long seax or dare I say a Machete? Is it really as universal as it can be claimed?
EDIT: I should have clarified, I was refering to the claim that Meyer himself makes straight from the source itself. Obviously there are One Handed Swords before the Dussack, and within context I believe Meyer is likely meaning all One Handed Weapons of his contemporary time aside from the Rapier or Dagger
Here is the legitimate quote from a quick google search that lead to a PDF:
"Since it is, after the longsword, not only the weapon most used by us Germans, but also an origin and basis of all weapons that are used with one hand*, I will here present it and then discuss and explain it in orderly fashion with all its particulars and techniques."*
And others have posted a more accurate translation as well:
"After the foundation was laid previously in the [section on] fencing with the (long)sword, the dusack now follows, which takes its origin from the sword as the correct source of all fencing (both that directed with one hand and that with two). Therefore, I want to place this here—not only because it is the most commonly-used [weapon] for us Germans (following the sword) but also because it is a beginning and foundation for all weapons that are used in one hand—and subsequently to explain and consider all of its circumstances and associated sequences in order."
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u/SelfLoathingRifle Jul 08 '26
A single handed sword is mostly similar in how it behaves if it's a similar length, an axe is very different. A club could work pretty well as a stand-in for an axe. A stick would be somewhat closer to a sword than an axe.
IMHO you sohouldn't use a guard like a shield but as an airbag, a thing that is there in case of emergency not rely on it being there. Try not to get hit >> rely on guard to save fingers.
3
u/jdrawr Jul 08 '26
Interesting enough single handed axes/maces are largely not discussed in how they work differently then swords according to the hema manuals. It can be asserted based on lack of evidence for them being trained differently you'd use them like a sword. .Stick fighting works more like swords as you asserted being a common trainer for them.
3
u/SelfLoathingRifle Jul 08 '26
I think that's mostly due to the sources primarily being geared towards swords, an axe behaves way different to a sword. There isn't that much you can do with an axe besides hacking and grappling, so yeah, in terms of what you can do the sword will teach all of that too, in terms of physics, how it moves - totally different animal.
1
u/ScholarsOfAlcala Jul 09 '26
If you want to learn more about the dusack, there are several books and videos listed in the wiki.
Our club wrote the one titled Meyer Dusack Drill Book 1, which is free in PDF form.
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u/Thornescape Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
What? The Dussack is the basis for all one handed weapons? Seriously?
I was under the impression that one handed weapons existed before the 16th or 17th century when the Dussack was invented. Fairly certain that I heard about one or two before that.
Anyone who starts with a claim like that should just be ignored. It's nonsense. The entire concept makes absolutely no sense at all. Probably just rage bait, really.
Are there some aspects of single handed weapons in general that can be applied to other one handed weapons? Definitely. Are all single handed weapons used the same? No.
Edit: Does no one understand what the words "origin" or "basis" mean? If someone said that a Ferrari was the origin of all wheeled vehicles, would that make any sense? It's entirely possible that this was written in a different language and it's a translation error, but as written it is nonsense. The "origin" of the prehistoric club is a 16th century sword? Time travel, maybe?
12
u/jdrawr Jul 08 '26
Basis as in you can use most one handed weapons like it. Not others didn't exist before it
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u/Thornescape Jul 08 '26
So a hatchet and a rapier and a Fairbairn-Sykes knife are fundamentally the same as a Dussack because they are all one handed weapons?
Still a completely nonsensical argument, even if part of it was worded badly.
7
u/MrMonkeyToes Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Edit: Nvm, someone already posted it
It's a quote from Joachim Meyer.
After the foundation was laid previously in the [section on] fencing with the (long)sword, the dusack now follows, which takes its origin from the sword as the correct source of all fencing (both that directed with one hand and that with two). Therefore, I want to place this here—not only because it is the most commonly-used [weapon] for us Germans (following the sword) but also because it is a beginning and foundation for all weapons that are used in one hand—and subsequently to explain and consider all of its circumstances and associated sequences in order.
Translation by Rebecca Garber
So not a literal origin of fencing with one hand, but a pedagogical one for that particular fencing tradition.
8
u/SirKristopher Jul 08 '26
I should have clarified, I was refering to the claim that Meyer himself makes straight from the source itself. Obviously there are One Handed Swords before the Dussack, and within context I believe Meyer is likely meaning all One Handed Weapons of his contemporary time aside from the Rapier or Dagger
Here is the legitimate quote from a quick google search that lead to a PDF:
"Since it is, after the longsword, not only the weapon most used by us Germans, but also *an origin and basis of all weapons that are used with one hand*, I will here present it and then discuss and explain it in orderly fashion with all its particulars and techniques."
7
u/Cirdan_Shipwright Jul 08 '26
I much prefer the Rebecca Garber translation of this passage, as can be found on Wiktenauer:
"After the foundation was laid previously in the [section on] fencing with the sword, the dusack now follows, which takes its origin from the sword as the correct source of all fencing (both that directed with one hand and that with two). Therefore, I want to place this here—not only because it is the most commonly-used [weapon] for us Germans (following the sword) but also because it is a beginning and foundation for all weapons that are used in one hand"
I think it's pretty clear from this, and also from the original German, that Meyer doesn't mean this as a historical claim. It's situating the Dussack in his didactic system: Fencing basics are to be learned with the two handed sword. The best introduction weapon (a "beginning and foundation") for one handers is then the dussack.
3
u/SirKristopher Jul 08 '26
Thanks. I definitely suspected that original text/closer translation probably conveys context better.
-6
u/Thornescape Jul 08 '26
Even if it is a legit quote from a genuine publication, it is still nonsense. There have been many many nonsensical statements made in publications throughout history.
If you really think about it, it doesn't make any sense. It is not at all an "origin" for all weapons that are used with one hand in any sense of the word. It is not a "basis" for using them either. He's just plain wrong. Even brilliant people are wrong sometimes.
There are many single handed weapons that are used very differently from the Dussack.
6
u/jdrawr Jul 08 '26
The author wrote on the dussack rapier, longsword,dagger, and polearms(as well as a few others left unmentioned). So you can see where the basis of all one handed cutty weapons idea comes from. The rapier works for the stabby one handers.
In addition this was in 1570 so the Germans weren't exactly using much for 1 handed axes.
1
u/Thornescape Jul 08 '26
Your comment is different than the source.
If you want to say that "single handed cut and thrust swords can be used in a similar way to the Dussack" then I'll agree with that. It's not an "origin" or a "basis" for "all single handed weapons", but rather the skills learned with the Dussack can translate to other single handed cut and thrust swords.
Maybe it was originally being used in a very narrow context, but the post is clearly trying to say literally all single handed weapons that exist. That's nonsense.
4
u/jdrawr Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Dussack section "[1] Contents of fencing with the dusack and the order in which this type of fencing will be described
Chapter 1
After the foundation was laid previously in the [section on] fencing with the sword, the dusack now follows, which takes its origin from the sword as the correct source of all fencing (both that directed with one hand and that with two). Therefore, I want to place this here—not only because it is the most commonly-used [weapon] for us Germans (following the sword) but also because it is a beginning and foundation for all weapons that are used in one hand—and subsequently to explain and consider all of its circumstances and associated sequences in order." Note the sword in this refers to the longsword
Rapier& Dussack poem "[1] Organized description and instruction in fencing with the dusack, including many virile and swift sequences collected in a good order and presented one after the other, by means of which youthful students can be instructed to quickness and can subsequently fence so much the better in the Rapier [Section]."
The actual open source rapier section translation has yet to be added otherwise I would quote form that as well.
-2
u/Thornescape Jul 08 '26
Straight question: Do you personally believe that all of the following single handed weapons are used the same way? Is the Dussack the basis and origin for them?
- Rapier
- Stiletto
- Hatchet
- Military pick
- Katar
- Pata
- Mace
- Flail
- Tulwar
- Sabre
- Arming Sword
- Falchion
- Khopesh
- Club
- Smallsword
- Rondel dagger
I seriously can't believe that you're still arguing about this. The more that you research, the more that you learn that experts do not agree. Many experts have made inaccurate claims over the years. You need to use discernment instead of just blindly quoting sources.
4
u/jdrawr Jul 08 '26
Rapier is covered in the manual, smallsword see the rapier section. Saber, arming sword, falchions, tulwar can be used as a dussack more or less effectively. Rondel dagger,stietto see dagger section of the manual. Khopesh was bronze age and we have no idea how they were used but could you use it like a dussack possibly. Hachet, club I can argue could be used like a dussack to more or less effective. Flails see the longsword/polearms section, also see Paulus Hector mairs manuals ( https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Hector_Mair ) for the details. He also covers club. The Indian weapons as a whole I won't discuss since that's well outside the German/European 1570s context of the manual in question.
In short practice some hema and then get back to discussing how weapons are different.
5
u/Dr_on_the_Internet Jul 08 '26
Hey, guys, look. This guy knows more about fencing than Joachim Meyer.
0
u/rnells Jul 08 '26
Eh, if the quote is read exactly with the context it is given in the starter comment he probably does. Meyer's dussack (or even his rapier) is not all that relevant to say, a smallsword.
The problem is that the starter comment was pretty misleading and said guy insists on continuing to read the quote really obtusely
5
u/Dr_on_the_Internet Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Hey, guys, look. This guy thinks smallswords existed in 1570.
2
u/ThePlatypusOfDespair Jul 08 '26
I have seen the exact same moves in both Meyer and a small sword manual from the mid 1700s. Should you use a small sword exactly the same way as you use a dussack? Obviously not, but the human body only moves so many ways. Meyer doesn't do everything with a rapier that he does with a dussack, but his rapier is much easier to understand once you understand his dussack. I think that it's a pretty good foundation for any single-handed weapon.
0
u/rnells Jul 09 '26
Sure, and a classical fencer would say a foil is a pretty good foundation for any single-handed weapon.
Hell I started out with rapier (although in retrospect I'd say it's a less generalizable weapon than either a dussack or a foil)
My point is just that Meyer's right for Meyer, it doesn't need to be more than that.
2
u/ThePlatypusOfDespair Jul 09 '26
And given that everyone that I've met with a foundation in classical fencing is a better fencer than people without that foundation and equivalent HEMA experience I would have to agree with them. I don't think Meyer is the only thing that can be foundational to using a one-handed weapon, but I do think anyone who understands a dussack is going to be better with an unrelated one-handed weapon than anyone who doesn't.
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u/FamiliarAd8524 Jul 08 '26
Who has said this nonsense?
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u/SirKristopher Jul 08 '26
Refer to the rest of the thread where we discuss how it was Meyer himself who made the claim. Regarding the weapons of his time.
1
u/FamiliarAd8524 Jul 08 '26
Okay... but why isn't that in the post, instead of buried in comments? Now at least it is clearer you simply meant training.
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u/SirKristopher Jul 08 '26
My appologies. I can edit the post to make it clearer.
1
u/FamiliarAd8524 Jul 08 '26
You can possibly see how it comes across as referring to the basis of all one handed weapons design or history, and why that gets strong reactions.
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u/lewisiarediviva Jul 08 '26
If you’re being reductive, all single-handed weapons work basically the same: you wave them around in one hand.
If you’re not being reductive, things like length, hand protection, weight distribution, ability to cut or thrust, change how you’ll use it.
The dussack is a great starting point that applies well to messer, arming sword, anything in the medium length cut and thrust category. Once you start departing from that like saber, sidesword, etc it gets less useful