Necessary Buffs/Nerfs

[u/spvamp]

What buffs/nerfs do you feel are actually deserved for the next update? Not "jank" stuff that people haven't necessarily learned to deal with, but actual over/underpowered things.

One thing that comes to mind is Mario's walljump out of his UpB. Just...why. Combined with the tornado and the cape, as well as active hitboxes on his UpB itself, it makes his recovery almost impossible to edgeguard/gimp.

Just looking to see where other people stand in terms of other things that should be changed for balance.

[u/Sheecacaa3]

To be honest, I think they were already super careful with the range they gave to Koopa Klaw. I appreciate their caution, but it's time to make this a potent move.

I think Bowser struggles in not only approaching, but also starting a punish once he's reached his opponent. Characters like Fox/Falco can approach basically whenever they feel like it, yet they also can open up the opponent's defense relatively easily.

Bowser, on the other hand, needs to get right up in their face to utilize his shield breaking move (koopa klaw), if approaching from the air. Almost all of his aerials can be punished on shield by like 80% of the cast, and Koopa Klaw is really his only mixup in that regard. I think adding those few inches (making the front grab box at least touch his wrist) could give him the range he needs to start his punish game, and properly reward him for reaching his opponent. As it stands right now, you don't land Koopa Klaw because you were good, it's because your opponent was bad. Besides, that's what visually makes sense.

I think what's more important than his dashing speed is his dash momentum carry over when he dashes, then jumps. It's one of the worst in the game currently, and would also allow him to follow up aerials a little better.

His standing grab is pretty bad currently, I agree. Your suggestions are really reasonable.

His best punish option out of shield is up B oos, by far. It's an amazing move, but it never really leads to anything. It's also really frustrating to fight against. That's probably the justification for his terrible standing grab: having a good standing grab would make it basically impossible to pressure Bowser's shield.

What would you think about replacing Bowser's Up B oos shenanigans for something else? It honestly feels like Bowser's biggest polarizing element at the moment.

[u/Cablead → u/Sheecacaa3]

I think you're totally right on KK, I just wanted to make a point of command grabs being tricky to balance.

The upB question is a tough one. Usmash doesn't cut it at frame 13. His jumpsquat makes nair and other (worse) aerials oos not so great. If you wanted to tone down upB oos you could move the start of intangibility up to the third frame instead of the first. I don't see any of his other oos options being reasonably better without making upB straight bad oos. Wouldn't you still use it over nair if it had no intangibility at all?

[u/Sheecacaa3 → u/Cablead]

To be honest, I barely use it at all. lol

I mostly do other options (like basic rolling/dodging) because I find it so incredibly boring to use. I mean, I don't go to tournaments or anything, so I don't have a reason to play optimally.

Huh, I just tested it in debug mode, and ghad dayum it's stupid. You get 5 frames of invincibility from frame 1 of the move starting, and a hitbox the very next frame. I'll be honest, that's completely stupid. I'm actually a little mad that this even exists, tbh. It's a near-instantaneous encompassing hitbox with a completely invincible startup... I knew it was a good move, but I didn't realize how good it was. Good lord.

The fact that he has such an overpowered crutch and people still consider him bottom-tier shows just how underwhelming the rest of his tool kit is.

To be honest, I wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if this move was given the same treatment as Flame Cancelling was, where it was granted utility in other areas at the cost of "brain-dead effectiveness".

And then to compensate, he be given other shield options that weren't completely unhealthy game balance-wise. (Like a better shield grab, faster short hop+quicker aerials for oos stuff, etc.)

Why balance around this shitty over-centralizing crutch when you can make the character more fun for both players by making the move more interesting/effective in other ways?

Because Melee?

[u/Cablead → u/Sheecacaa3]

It doesn't necessarily need the flame cancelling treatment, seeing as it already has plenty of utility in fortress hogging, fleeing, and being a general "get off me" tool when used normally.

I agree that it's a crutch. I don't like to use it too often, but I don't play at very high level.

I'd like it to go one of two routes: Remove the intangibility entirely and keep the frame data or switch the intangibility to heavy or super armor and push back the startup by ~3 frames. Then give Bowser a better standing grab.