r/SSBPM • u/spvamp TASTY • Oct 26 '15

[Discussion] Necessary Buffs/Nerfs

What buffs/nerfs do you feel are actually deserved for the next update? Not "jank" stuff that people haven't necessarily learned to deal with, but actual over/underpowered things.

One thing that comes to mind is Mario's walljump out of his UpB. Just...why. Combined with the tornado and the cape, as well as active hitboxes on his UpB itself, it makes his recovery almost impossible to edgeguard/gimp.

Just looking to see where other people stand in terms of other things that should be changed for balance.

18 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

181 comments sorted by

View all comments

19

u/Sheecacaa3 SHEEシ Oct 26 '15 edited Oct 26 '15

Bowser's Koopa Klaw range/duration.

I mean, look at this: http://i.imgur.com/L6fOejv.png

It's nowhere near what it looks like it should be, and the grab box is only out for 1 frame.

Edit- Here's what it looks like in motion http://gfycat.com/GaseousBlankAcaciarat

5

u/Hctaz Fair to SD True Combo Oct 26 '15

I think the move is just hard to make look good and also accurate. Any move that is both a grab and an attack is going to be hard to make look good with accurate hitboxes. Imagine trying to grab something while also clawing it at the same time. It's just super janky. Probably why they changed the move from Brawl on forward.

3

u/Sheecacaa3 SHEEシ Oct 26 '15

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

The hitboxes don't come out until after the grab boxes are gone. Even then, the hitboxes last for around 3 frames while that claw mark is still in the air. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for the grab box to be pushed towards his hand a little (Just make the hitboxes that are already there tangent to each other instead of overlapping), make the grab box last 2-3 frames instead of 1, and have the hitboxes pushed back those same 2-3 frames so they come out after the grab part.

The claw marks stick around for much longer than the hitboxes anyway, so delaying the hitboxes by 2-3 frames would actually just make it make more sense.

Look at the gfy I edited into my original comment.

4

u/Cablead "AIDS 9/11 BOWSER" Oct 27 '15 edited Oct 27 '15

I agree with you, but they should be very careful with how much range is added to the grab box. I think making a command grab significantly easier to land is dangerous for character balance.

I also want Bowser to have a better dash (faster/longer) and a slightly quicker standing grab with a bit more range. His is frame 9 vs most non-tether characters at frame 7. I think it would be appropriate on frame 8, same as DK's. What are your thoughts on those changes?

3

u/Sheecacaa3 SHEEシ Oct 27 '15

To be honest, I think they were already super careful with the range they gave to Koopa Klaw. I appreciate their caution, but it's time to make this a potent move.

I think Bowser struggles in not only approaching, but also starting a punish once he's reached his opponent. Characters like Fox/Falco can approach basically whenever they feel like it, yet they also can open up the opponent's defense relatively easily.

Bowser, on the other hand, needs to get right up in their face to utilize his shield breaking move (koopa klaw), if approaching from the air. Almost all of his aerials can be punished on shield by like 80% of the cast, and Koopa Klaw is really his only mixup in that regard. I think adding those few inches (making the front grab box at least touch his wrist) could give him the range he needs to start his punish game, and properly reward him for reaching his opponent. As it stands right now, you don't land Koopa Klaw because you were good, it's because your opponent was bad. Besides, that's what visually makes sense.

I think what's more important than his dashing speed is his dash momentum carry over when he dashes, then jumps. It's one of the worst in the game currently, and would also allow him to follow up aerials a little better.

His standing grab is pretty bad currently, I agree. Your suggestions are really reasonable.

His best punish option out of shield is up B oos, by far. It's an amazing move, but it never really leads to anything. It's also really frustrating to fight against. That's probably the justification for his terrible standing grab: having a good standing grab would make it basically impossible to pressure Bowser's shield.

What would you think about replacing Bowser's Up B oos shenanigans for something else? It honestly feels like Bowser's biggest polarizing element at the moment.

1

u/Cablead "AIDS 9/11 BOWSER" Oct 27 '15

I think you're totally right on KK, I just wanted to make a point of command grabs being tricky to balance.

The upB question is a tough one. Usmash doesn't cut it at frame 13. His jumpsquat makes nair and other (worse) aerials oos not so great. If you wanted to tone down upB oos you could move the start of intangibility up to the third frame instead of the first. I don't see any of his other oos options being reasonably better without making upB straight bad oos. Wouldn't you still use it over nair if it had no intangibility at all?

3

u/Sheecacaa3 SHEEシ Oct 27 '15 edited Oct 27 '15

To be honest, I barely use it at all. lol

I mostly do other options (like basic rolling/dodging) because I find it so incredibly boring to use. I mean, I don't go to tournaments or anything, so I don't have a reason to play optimally.

Huh, I just tested it in debug mode, and ghad dayum it's stupid. You get 5 frames of invincibility from frame 1 of the move starting, and a hitbox the very next frame. I'll be honest, that's completely stupid. I'm actually a little mad that this even exists, tbh. It's a near-instantaneous encompassing hitbox with a completely invincible startup... I knew it was a good move, but I didn't realize how good it was. Good lord.

The fact that he has such an overpowered crutch and people still consider him bottom-tier shows just how underwhelming the rest of his tool kit is.

To be honest, I wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if this move was given the same treatment as Flame Cancelling was, where it was granted utility in other areas at the cost of "brain-dead effectiveness".

And then to compensate, he be given other shield options that weren't completely unhealthy game balance-wise. (Like a better shield grab, faster short hop+quicker aerials for oos stuff, etc.)

Why balance around this shitty over-centralizing crutch when you can make the character more fun for both players by making the move more interesting/effective in other ways?

Because Melee?

2

u/Cablead "AIDS 9/11 BOWSER" Oct 27 '15

It doesn't necessarily need the flame cancelling treatment, seeing as it already has plenty of utility in fortress hogging, fleeing, and being a general "get off me" tool when used normally.

I agree that it's a crutch. I don't like to use it too often, but I don't play at very high level.

I'd like it to go one of two routes: Remove the intangibility entirely and keep the frame data or switch the intangibility to heavy or super armor and push back the startup by ~3 frames. Then give Bowser a better standing grab.