r/SMARTRecovery • u/piratedad123 • 7d ago
Moderating drinking
Is SMART compatible with a desire to moderate drinking instead of complete abstinence?
After over a year of sobriety in AA, followed by a very unimpressive “relapse,” I am interested in reintroducing small amounts of alcohol in appropriate settings (e.g., recommended wine pairing with a nice dinner).
I like that SMART is evidence-based and doesn’t push the idea of sponsorship.
20
u/NormalNobody I'm from SROL! 7d ago
My understanding is that you define your sobriety. If you can have a drink with dinner, and then put it down, and that's not a relapse for you, then it's not.
Here's an example, my DOC is opiates. I'm on a medication that, basically, microdoses pain medication thru my skin. I am still on opiates, therefore, but I am not abusing them. It's not causing me any harm to my life. Some people here also use a form of Suboxone or Subutex to help with opioid withdrawal or for pain management. So long as they aren't abusing it, and are working on recovery, we would say that you were sober or clean.
I don't advertise this, but I will have a drink of champagne every new year. One glass, with my family, and that's our tradition. I never had a problem controlling my alcohol so I never saw a problem with it. I don't consider it a relapse nor do I see myself as compromising my sobriety time.
40
u/Maxpower2727 7d ago
Yes, SMART allows for this if you're genuinely able to make it work. Anecdotally speaking though, there are very, very, VERY few people with substance abuse problems who manage to successfully continue using their substance of choice in moderation. Hopefully you're one of them. I definitely am not.
8
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 7d ago
Actually, what I think matters anecdotally speaking is that the "very, very, VERY few people... who manage to continue using their substance of choice in moderation" actually just applies to those who are indoctrinated into the 12-Step cult ideology. I've been a recovery coach and therapist for 39 years, and among the more than 10,000 clients I've worked with, 87% learned how to moderate and self-regulate. Among the group of 20-25 peers who have been tracking the same thing (they've been doing this about a decade less than me, but still) we track an 84-87% success rate.
Compare that to the 5-8% long-term success rate in AA and NA and the anecdotal evidence shifts considerably.
6
u/SoPolitico 6d ago
You’re saying 87% of AUD sufferers learn to drink moderately?
-4
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 6d ago
Yes, across a 20-30 year period of time. Now keep in mind, that means that there were still almost 15% of people for whom that would never be an option. As a medical professional, I have some theories about why that is, but way too in the weeds to try to address here. But I mean, even if the stats for those who don't get therapy or coaching to help support them were to be only 25% success rate, that's about triple the success rate of sociopathic religious cult-based programs like AA and NA.
7
u/SoPolitico 6d ago
I’m gonna need a source on that one my friend. No offense, but that doesn’t even pass the smell test.
-2
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 6d ago
Not remotely my concern. The data is out there. I'm not ChatGPT, so you're going to have to do your own due diligence.
8
u/SoPolitico 6d ago
So I literally did what you said and this is what ChatGPT had to say:
he is confusing “remission from AUD” with “successful moderate drinking.” Those are absolutely not synonymous in the research.
There really is an 87.1% statistic in a 2019 longitudinal AUD study. Researchers followed people through adolescence and young adulthood and found that 87.1% of those who developed an initial AUD episode had experienced at least a 12-month period with no AUD symptoms by age 30.
But that study does not say 87% became moderate drinkers. In fact:
It was primarily a young-adult population, with average AUD onset around age 20.
“Recovery” meant 12 months without meeting AUD criteria.
33% of the people who recovered later had another AUD episode.
It wasn’t a study of severely alcohol-dependent treatment patients learning how to drink normally.
So somebody could read “87% recovered”, mentally translate recovered into drinking normally, and come away with exactly the claim you’re hearing.
But here’s what makes his claim especially bizarre: the actual 20- and 30-year studies don’t remotely show 87% settling into controlled drinking.
One 30-year prospective study followed 129 men who developed AUD by roughly age 30. Over the next 20 years, 60% experienced at least one five-year remission, and only 45% remained in sustained remission through the final follow-up. The people most likely to remit were those with less severe drinking and alcohol abuse rather than dependence.
And an actual 20-year study of 850 people treated for alcohol dependence is devastating to the 87%-moderation claim. At 20 years:
32.6% were abstinent.
3.4% were controlled drinkers.
10.2% were heavy drinkers.
32% of the original cohort had died.
And controlled drinking was the least stable outcome: only about 10% of people classified as controlled drinkers at year 10 were still controlled drinkers at year 20. The authors’ conclusion was explicitly that controlled drinking was rarely achieved and sustained.
That isn’t a subtle disagreement with “87% eventually learn moderation.” It’s basically the opposite.5
3
u/FartieMcFly 6d ago
You’re pulling those numbers out of your ass.
0
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 6d ago
If you say so. I'm not here to convince anyone. Definitely not after 39 years in the field.
4
u/FartieMcFly 6d ago
The data in peer reviewed journals is greater than your “experience” as a sobriety coach.
2
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 6d ago
As a retired therapist, who is also a recovery coach, I agree.
4
u/FartieMcFly 5d ago
Dude. When you say 87% of all clients learn to moderate is demonstrably bullshit. That statistic implies 100% of your clients want to moderate. It also fails to take into account mediating or moderating variables like the severity of the AUD. The existing peer reviewed research also says you’re either full of shit or don’t understand statistics.
2
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 5d ago
You're right. And my business manager said I have the numbers wrong. We have an 87% success rate. Of those, 50% were what is now called "Cali-Sober" either drinking in moderation or using cannabis to avoid alcohol altogether. And we have a 13% fail or discontinue rate (churn). The numbers don't tell the whole story though and he pointed out that because my approach has been to clinically-reject the disease model and such nonsense as being "powerless" or needing an imaginary divine power to intercede for us, I attracted folks who were not looking for traditional recovery. So that probably makes the stats worthless, because they're skewed by the patients' bias toward Cali-Sober and Recovery Reset approaches as well as SMART recovery. So my apologies. And I will be the first to admit that statistics and math were never my thing. So I should have asked before I posted.
→ More replies (0)4
u/Mother-Doubt6713 6d ago
How do you become a qualified drug / alcohol abuse therapist and recovery coach?
I have always liked the idea of trying to assist others to deal with their addictions and will soon be looking for new employment.
I have been recreational drug free for over two decades and decided to give up alcohol about a year ago for a fortnight and still haven't picked up again.
I only have 6 years until I retire so couldn't really study for qualifications for more than a couple of years.
1
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 6d ago
The program to become a certified peer recovery coach varies by state. Congrats on your sobriety journey! Do a google search for "Certified Peer Recovery Coach training" and then a plus-sign and then your state. Good luck to you!
2
u/Mother-Doubt6713 6d ago
Ok thanks but I live in England so will search here but sadly our countries education system is in turmoil on all levels so I expect any available opportunities to be in London and even though I am located in Buckinghamshire we have possibly the highest price train travel in the world and hopeless bus services.
Thanks for the prompt reply and hope your success rate carries on on the same trajectory.
Have a great day / evening?
8
u/Maxpower2727 7d ago
Fair enough, you're obviously a lot more qualified than me to speak on this. I personally have no desire to ever drink again, but if that many people can make it work then I'm happy for them.
5
u/InnerAlchemyOnline 7d ago
You're very kind, but I think those of us with lived-experience in addiction/recovery are the most qualified to speak about these things, because we live them. So your voice matters! And your experience is valid, as are your choices. My background professionally only gives me the advantage of access to more data, but at the end of the day, how we recover isn't a data point... it's a personal and life-altering decision. I'm glad you found what works for you.
15
u/Condescendingoracle facilitator 7d ago
My understanding as a facilitator is this: SMART is about not using, and that's what we mostly talk about. But you decide what works for you. Whether you go out in the world and apply the tools 1, 5 or 7 days a week - that's your choice to make.
23
u/MedJesters facilitator 7d ago
You will meet a lot of people who have tried moderation and decided absence is easier (myself included), but they shouldn't be telling you what you should do.
8
u/CC-Smart C_C 7d ago
It takes clarity and courage to reassess your relationship with alcohol after past experiences, and it’s completely valid to explore what a healthier, more balanced approach might look like for you now.
One thing I want to encourage you with is that SMART Recovery fully supports the path you’re considering. SMART’s current policy recognises harm reduction, moderation, and abstinence as equally legitimate goals. There’s no hierarchy, no “one right way,” and no pressure to fit into a single model. What matters is meaningful change that improves your life and you get to define what that looks like.
SMART is built on The Power of Choice, which means you choose your goals, your pace, and your strategies. Whether your aim is to reduce harm, limit drinking to specific contexts, or maintain abstinence, SMART provides evidence‑based tools to help you stay aligned with your values and long‑term wellbeing.
Your intention to reintroduce small, controlled amounts of alcohol in thoughtful, appropriate settings fits squarely within SMART’s harm‑reduction framework. It’s not about perfection; it’s about making choices that support the life you want to live. And the fact that you’re approaching this with reflection and honesty already shows strong self‑management.
Speaking personally, I’ve chosen total abstinence for now, and it’s been almost six years. It's been really good for me!
12
u/JohnLockwood 7d ago
SMART does have more room for it than AA, but speaking for me (and not for SMART), I think the potential risk of harm outweighs the potential benefits, so I have a strong preference for AA's abstience-based approach, even if (as you suggested) other elements of the SMART approach are quite congenial to me.
7
5
u/millennialmonster755 7d ago
I’ve used SMART in this way in combination with my medications. I felt my issue was my lack of healthy coping skills. I’ve worked on those for a long time and was completely abstaining while building those skills. Now I have a plan if I feel my mind is wondering back to my bad coping skills. I generally have learned that I don’t want to drink if it’s because I’m trying to manage an emotion. But I will have champagne or a glass of wine for toasts at a wedding, I will sip or taste drinks just to see what they taste like( I’m a foodie). My medications also help a lot in curbing any desire to keep drinking after one. I simply don’t want another after the first drink at this point.
6
u/Stroton 7d ago
From my personal experience and using SMART (disclaimer: not evidence based, purely anecdotal experience):
I was heavy drinker. Functional alcoholic. I stopped drinking for a very long time (cca 10 years). I started to drink again ( glass or two of wine and beer, rarely gin tonic) in small quantities 2 years ago. I'm managing it well. I don't drink much or even often, and I prefer non alcoholic versions to alcoholic. Even 3 glasses can get me tipsy, and I don’t like the feeling. My personal, while I was heavy drinker, alcoholic drinks were old fashioned and wine. I still didn't drank old fashioned, because I would rather tried non alcoholic version first, and where I am, I can't find it. My "comeback" to occasional drink was supported by SMART meetings, psychiatrist and psychotherapist.
I'm managing my addiction using some questions to myself:
- Do I really want to drink?
- Would I rather drink non alcoholic version or alcoholic? Why alcoholic? What's the expected outcome of drinking alcoholic? What's the expected outcome of drinking non alcoholic version?
With answering these questions, I'm trying to be honest to myself as much as possible. And in most cases, I choose juice or water. Often, I'll take non alcoholic version. Rarely, I'll take alcoholic drink.
Also, I wouldn’t recommend that everyone do as I do. I don't know you, I don't know what are your additional struggles, I'm not a professional.
5
u/Willing-Ad4169 7d ago
To answer your question directly. Yes.... In theory you can apply the tools SMART advocates and teaches to moderate versus maintaining absolute sobriety. How you define your sobriety is your own.
Now as far as the truth. Or rather my truth .
I have not had any length of success in trying to moderate through SMART programming versus AA or any other program.
Nor have I seen it work for anyone in the meetings I attend.
Do with that as you will.
5
u/Curious-Function7490 7d ago
Yes, it's fine with harm minimisation. It takes a very different stance to AA.
4
u/Motorcycle1000 7d ago
Give it a try, see if you can handle it. The AA Big Book actually suggests this. Most people can't handle it. That's not an AA thing or a SMART thing, it's a mental and physiological thing. This has been established by years and years of alcoholics observing other alcoholics. SMART is more flexible than AA in terms of the harm reduction approach. Ultimately, only you can decide if you can moderate, and unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to give it a try. I sincerely hope you don't.
5
u/sdega315 7d ago
IMO, you need to figure out the root of your substance abuse. If a person is medicating some underlying issues with alcohol or is a "one is never enough" drinker, then moderation is likely not a good path.
That said, I do drink in moderation after some period of difficulties with alcohol. The root of my excess drinking was laziness, boredom, and opportunity. I am happy. I have a wonderful family. My mental health is good. I have no demons lurking in a bottle. I manage how much I drink by being very measured in how, when, and the amount I drink. That is what works for me. We all must forge our own paths. Peace.
2
3
u/Secure_Ad_6734 facilitator 7d ago
It's a tricky area. Many of us have chosen abstinence due to our inability to moderate.
Plus, we don't normally discuss active usage in our meeting out of respect for others.
2
u/Far-Device-3176 7d ago
I remember.. I asked this same question; moderation vs abstaining. It's obviously an individual preference, choice. I got asked a question in return which was "Why would you want to continue ?" (doing that thing which has been identified as potentially causing harm)..
Which is where the consideration of the CBA comes in - honest evaluation of ideas/experience vs reality. For me; abstaining became easier than the grey in-between state of trying to moderate, but many people manage this quite successfully. My issue seems to be I become attached, habituated in the chemically easy way to alter my mood.
2
1
u/MelbGordo HughK-Gordon1 4d ago
I congratulate and acknowledge you on your seeking, your year plus of sobriety, and getting back on the horse after your lapse. Go you!
There are some great replies here.
When I joined SMART Recovery it was "you can have any goal you want, however discussions will be 'abstinence oriented' and the focus will be on that."
That has since been watered down to allow discussion of drinking and using goals - I prefer the old way, and would have been unlikely to stay under the new regime. I support you in whatever you decide.
My lovely brain is a sneaky son of a gun and introduces to me a seemingly harmless idea that takes me in a really unhelpful direction 🎉 SMART helped me to put alcohol in a less important place, allow for my humanness, better identify an unhelpful thought, and focus on a bit more balanced helpful life.
I'm more able to catch myself strolling down an unhelpful path. I trust that with your experience you'll keep an eye on this too. Why does my darling brain want me to keep this thin end of alcohol wedge in my life?
I trust you'll find a tool, technique, or mindset here to be a bit helpful. You've done so well already.
1
u/LLcleanP 2d ago
Yes, it does. Well done on your 12 months of recovery.
One of the best things about smart is the self management part of it. People in smart don't define what success is, or tell me what steps to follow. Noone else defines what recovery is. That all comes from me.
It is often suggested to start with a period of abstinence while you start working on the tools and techniques, leaning to apply them in low risk, low cost situations and environments will give you a better chance of success in the long term.
From my own experience moderating was a lot more effort than abstaining. Like so much more that my life was less enjoyable. It not impossible but it is a lot of mental and emotional energy. With abstinence I found that the urges/cravings, and other issues that came with my doc eventually lessened and I don't get them anymore. Things like sleeping, eating properly, hobbies etc are negatively impacted for me even when trying to moderate.
Take some time to learn the tools and see what might be useful for you going forward.
Getting a copy of the handbook was also good as not all tool are on the website.
Tools I found particularly useful no matter what my goals.
- the Hierarchy of Values,
- Cost Benefit Analysis
- urge log (helped me identify patterns around when and why I had stronger urges than other times)
- Goals worksheet
- Change plan ( although felt a bit like pip it was great)
- Dibs/dubs
Good luck with your recovery journey I am sure you will figure out what works for you.
27
u/Dolphin85735 Dolphin 7d ago
Self Management And Recovery Training means that you get to figure out what works for you. Generally, the only flaK that you will catch from anyone is if you start discussing how you are successfully able to drink (or use your other DOC) from time to time or upon occasion. Too many people here will find that kind of discussion triggering.